http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/669337/the_founding_fathers_were_neither_deists.html?cat=37

Despite its title, it actually makes a good case against the belief that the Founding Fathers wanted to strictly separate Church and State. I guess it’s more appropriate to say they supported non-interference in each other’s affairs, like the Puritans in Britain did. And if you have any notion of history, it should be quite obvious why they were opposed to this union between world politics and religion. That is what Islam stands for, but not true Christianity (remember Christ said His Kingdom is not of this world?).

Several Founding Fathers held heterodox views that I entirely disapprove of (e.g. nontrinitarianism, universalism) but then again John Witherspoon was an ordained Presbyterian minister (thus a clergyman) and member of the Church of Scotland, and he did sign the U.S. Constitution. Some Founding Fathers were indeed freemasons, yet many others were not. But what difference does it make anyway? John Adam’s son who later became president himself was a member of the Anti-Masonic Party, go figure. The truth is that all these men, despite their differences, were united in a common cause. That cause was the advancement of liberty and sound principles, and the downfall of tyranny.

The French Revolution was profoundly anticlerical and look at what it produced despite its Enlightened ideals of Liberté, Egalité & Fraternité. They replaced the “unenlightened” absolutist tyranny by new tyranny, albeit an “enlightened” one… To this day, France tries to surpress any form of religion from politics to the point it just gets absurd. That is NOT what the U.S. Constitution intended (though some Founding Fathers were indeed sympathetic to the French Revolution).

Also:

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

My apologies for going off-topic again.

As for “whacky,” many of of will freely admit that we see the world and events differently than many secularists. Some of the things we talk about are intellectually accessible to anyone who can read a newspaper or newssite. Some things (such as some of our biblical references) may require that you understand our point of view; indeed, some of these things are not accessible at all to those who have not surrendered themselves to Jesus. So, let’s be charatibable as say “different & peculiar” for “whacky” (unless you’re trying to insult us).

Your statement “Thank God for secularism and separation of church and state.” Is problematic on a number of levels:

1. If you really had a relationship with God such that your thanks would make a difference to him, you wouldn’t be thanking Him for secularism.

2. “Separation of Church and State” is a distortion of our constitution’s first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What this is saying is that our govenment cannot establish a state church (like the Church of England). That is, to say that the state church is the church, and there is not other legitimate religious body. It does not imply, much less say that the government must be scrupulously “secular.” The only other place where this topic is touched upon is one of Thomas Jefferson’s letters, and he was not implying today’s interpretation of the “wall of separation.”

Moreover, “secularism” is itself a religion. While it does not accept the “supernatural,” it places humans and the state in the place of God, and demand the worship of the same. Secularism is a world view, just as any religion.

So, Bucky, what you really want is for our nation to have secularism as the state religion (which is jealous of our Judeo-Christian heritage). Secularists claim that Christians try to force their views on others, but that is precisely what secularists do. Secularists say that we (Christians) should not attempt to “legislate morality,” but that is exactly what legislation is: codified morallity; the only real question is who’s morality will be codified. Here, the secular (minority) has been aggressively changing our mores and laws to the detriment of the (majority) of non-secular people.

My venomometer when off-scale when I read your post.

Do you realize that what they were trying to avoid was the state creating its own church along the lines of the Church of England? No, I didn’t think so our you could not have made the comment you did.

There is absolutely nothing in our laws that forces you to accept one religious belief over another. There is not requirement that you belive or disbelieve the Christian world view. That fact that this is even possible (here in the the USA) is a tribute to the advanced degree of tolerance that Judeo-Christians have for others: While they believe theirs is the only way to God and they will tell people so, they are not holding a knife to others’ throats or starting bloody riots when people insult them.

Sometimes I wonder why we bother to reason with people like TJ. Oh yes, now I remember: Jesus said that God is not willing that any perish, but that all come to have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Which forefathers wanted to separate church and state and who said you cannot choose your own faith?

You failed to mention why we are spewing venom by telling you the truth about the Left that took over the Democratic Party?

Who said you were the Anti-Christ?

Your forefather said God will give a nation the leader they deserve. That is a scary thought.

Also, don’t count your chickens before they hatch Obama has not won yet. Who you going to thank if he loses? But even if Obama does win remember his prophet Biden said, “Barak Obama will need the help of community leaders to control the population as unpopular decisions are made and Americans resist “, he also said it will happen within six months. What can I say more scary than what Joe Biden said to celibate Halloween?

THANK GOD OBAMA WILL WIN IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

Oh, here is the website for that group I was talking about. Apparently their homepage still works, but doesn’t look like it’s updated very often:
http://www.christianexodus.org

Beware though, I tried to join their mailing list or whatever and become a member of their message board, but was rejected without explanation. I even emailed and asked why, and was never even given an email back saying anything.