Enoch the pre-flood prophet and end time witness

Some of the contents in the Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) requires that either the person giving the message was a prophet, or that much of the book of Enoch was written after the New Testament. Notwithstanding, there is now solid proof that parts of the book were written before the birth of Christ. Therefore, it should be obvious that a prophet had something to do with what is found in certain portions of 1 Enoch.

The book has five sections. Parts of four of the five sections are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Two Enoch fragments of these scrolls were recently carbon dated to between 166 and 102 BC and 186 and 92 BC. The palaeographic age is said to be 200 BC. The scrolls appear to be part of the library of a Jewish sect hidden away in caves from the Romans before AD 66. Therefore, the information in Enoch validated by the fragments apparently predates the gospels and it certainly predates the Book of Revelation.

Jude, and other new testament writers show that they had knowledge of the book of Enoch. The early church fathers and early historians also write about the book of Enoch. There are about 40 passages in Enoch that say much the same thing as passages in the New Testament.

Even so, we should not consider Enoch to be part of the biblical canon for a number of reasons:

  • There is little indication that the Jews or the early fathers thought that the book of Enoch was to be regarded as scripture. They quoted from it and used it more like it was a historical record of Enoch, fallen angels and pre-flood events than it was scripture.
  • We do not have reliable texts of the book. They are translations from unknown sources.
  • The manuscripts that we have very likely contain insertions put their by Gnostic’s.

The biggest support for the BC dating of the book of Enoch is the Dead Sea Scrolls. Without that find, it would be hard to prove that anything prophetic was written before Jesus. I think additional scrolls will be found in these last days to clarify what belongs in the Book of Enoch.

I suggest that anyone that wants to know more about the book of Enoch do further research themselves. There are scholars that will help you decide which parts of the book are most likely Gnostic inserts. The book does say a lot about the end times so it may be useful in your study of Eschatology.

I will address two issues about Enoch in this article. One has to do with timings and the other has to do with the identity of the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

The Apocalypse of weeks section of Enoch indicates that there will be 7000 years from man until eternity. Enoch gives ten periods and writes a short commentary for each period. We might assume that each of the ten weeks covers 700 years. The few that have tried to date these periods come up with different dates, so I have found nothing definitive. Most of the dating difference are because they use different start dates. However, some do not think the periods are exactly 700 years either.

I will be using Ken Johnson’s dates from his book Ancient Book of Enoch. There is another dating scheme for those ten periods that may fit even better. I can’t use the reasoning found there without plagiarizing much of the article, so you might check out the link yourself.

The prophecy given for each of these ten periods is too long to put here so I will just give my own brief summary of it followed by Ken Johnson’s dating for each of the ten periods. You can read the whole prophecy in chapter 93 of Enoch. What is in parenthesis is just a comment by me to try to be helpful. Why Johnson uses 3925 BC as the start date gets rather complicated. He explains his reasoning in Ancient Post Flood History.

The Ten Weeks of 700 Years:

  1. A time when righteousness would endure 3925-3225 BC
  2. The second period would bring great wickedness that would bring about the first end (the flood), 3225-2525 BC
  3. during the third period there would be a plant of righteousness (Abraham as the Olive Tree), 2525-1825 BC
  4. Visions of the Holy Law for all generations and an enclosure (God, Law and the Tabernacle), 1825-1125 BC
  5. House of dominion will be built (Temple), 1125-425 BC
  6. Blindness and forsaking of wisdom. A man will ascend, The house of dominion will be burnt with fire. The root dispersed (the condition of Israel before Jesus, the man is Jesus, the house is the Temple and the root dispersed is Israel), 425 BC-AD 275
  7.  An apostate generation and a seven fold rise of knowledge in the world coming from the dispersed Jews, AD 275-975
  8. Righteous judgment on oppressors and sinners and a house built to honor the Lord. (the house built probably came out of the Protestant reformation) AD 975-1675
  9. God righteous judgment and destruction on the whole world followed by looking toward the path of integrity (the tribulation followed by the start of the millennial kingdom), AD 1675-2375
  10. The great eternal judgment of all and a new heaven and earth, AD 2375-3075

Note: in the tenth week it says that the judgement would occur in the seventh period of that week, in other words the eternal judgment would come at the very end of the 7000 years. In the previous weeks there is little information about the timing within that week although a few say what is said will happen toward the end of the period. Even so, if you read the full prophecy, the proper sequence of events within that week is in the order written.

If you want to believe these prophecies of Enoch, the end will come exactly 7000 years after Adam. We also know from Revelation that there will be a thousand-year reign of Jesus on earth before the end of the 7000 years. That means if Ken Johnson has the dating correct that Jesus would return before 2075 AD. Keep in mind, that before the end of those 7000 years Satan has to be released for a little time to deceive the nations (Rev 20:3). I do not know how long that little time is but I assume that Satan will have enough time to deceive the nations and get a large number of people to come against Jerusalem.

Let’s suppose that Satan gets forty years to carry out that final deception on earth (it could be more or less). The short time would start in 3035 AD and end in 3075 AD. Then subtract 1000 for the thousand-year reign and the return of Jesus is 2035 AD. 😀

Now, keep in mind that this prophecy was written over two thousand years ago and written before the Book of Revelation was even written. I think the prophecy will prove to be correct. But I do not think anybody has the dating all figured out. We really do not know what year we live in after Adam.

The second issue is about Enoch being one of the two witnesses.

Could it be that Enoch is one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11? Some early fathers of the Church certainly thought so. The idea that Moses is one of the two witnesses is of a later construct.

The two witnesses are killed by the Beast after their 1260 days of testimony. Moses died already, he cannot die again. Enoch and Elijah never died, they were taken alive for a future purpose in these last days. Elijah would restore things in Israel.

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Many will not repent. They will kill the two witnesses in Jerusalem. The Lord will then smite the earth with the curse. It is called the Day of the Lord, Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation.

Enoch will tell the world about what happened from Adam until the flood and why God sent the flood Judgment. This is generally lost to our generation because Christianity has been corrupted by Catholicism, modernism and post modernism. Christendom in general denies any supernatural explanations for pre-flood events or for future Bible prophecy. The record has to be set straight.

Jesus said it would be like it was before the flood in the time just before His second coming. Before the flood the Nephilim ruled on earth. They were the offspring of fallen angels and women. They corrupted what God created on earth. In one way or another, what happened before will happen again.

The testimony of the two witnesses will be given because God always gives a chance for repentance before His judgment falls. For 1260 days the world will be forced to hear the truth. Signs and wonders will accompany their ministry but many will still reject their message. The ministry of these two witnesses are the most understated end time event in the Bible even by Bible prophecy teachers.

Enoch and Elijah will appear in Jerusalem and give their testimony for 1260 days. Everyone will be given the truth before the end comes. They will have no excuse for rejecting God and salvation through Jesus Christ. Those that hate the truth, will be sent a strong delusion. They will believe the lies of the Antichrist. The lie is where paganism, new age, astrology, ufology, demons, fallen angels, pantheism, polytheism, mythology, universalism, evolution, spiritual evolution, reincarnation, witchcraft, genetic engineering, secret societies, world religions, cults, humanism, philosophy, psychologies, and theoretical sciences all converge.

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About Don Koenig

Don Koenig is the founder of ThePropheticYears website. He has been publishing articles on the Internet on Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and Christian worldviews since 1999.

You can find well over a thousand articles and thousands of comments written by Don from the homepage of this website.


Comments

Enoch the pre-flood prophet and end time witness — 79 Comments

  1. I remember reading the Book of Enoch about 20 years ago, several times. I haven’t a clue about Gnostic revisions and such but concluded that there may be good information in it there were things that made it clear that some parts, at least of the translation, that I read, were scribal notations. I found the 3000 ells to the giants, at least in some conversions, to be a mile tall. That sounded more like a tall tale. As I recall, there is later in the book a line, that appears to be a clarification, that refers to Persia. Persia would not have been known to Enoch. I decided not to consider the book scriptural but like many ancient and modern writings has some useful information. Enoch and Daniel, I think it the only pre NT books to refer to the “Son of Man” for example.

    There is a lot of information in that book. The origin of evil spirits, the various things taught mankind, prior to the flood by the watchers and such. I think one thing, I’ve not seen commented on is the fate of the Nephilim. The moderns appear to be going to treat Satan as a “Light Bearer” for bringing enlightenment to humanity. The spirits of the hybrids were not treated as were human spirits. The parallel to Revelation and those that receive the Mark is interesting to me. Those that receive the Mark are about the only irredeemable people mentioned in the Bible. I think that they will also choose to become hybrid (maybe part machine or with animal DNA) and are no longer covered under God’s mercy for humans.

    I also agree that Enoch and Elijah are probably the two witnesses. They are the only two men in the Bible that did not die. They were under the sentence of death given to all men after the Garden of Eden. I think that they will have to be the two (my opinion, I am not dogmatic about it) as they may still be under the sentence. I think those in the Rapture, who have been redeemed, have already died with Christ, as he took that punishment. So we can be raptured without the physical death.

    I know you will, and should, point out where I have drifted out of line. Thank you for a good article. I should probably go back and read Enoch to see what I forgot.

  2. Hi Phil.

    the 3ooo elles seems to be a textual error. It probably should read 300 elles. The Greek translation says 300 cubits which is about 450 feet. The height of these that were also called Titian’s were only the first generation of giants. They were fallen angels. As they had offspring and mixed with humans they continually got smaller. By the time of Samson they were down to about 8 or 9 feet.

    The fate of the Nephilim is given. Since they are part angel and part human when their human bodies die they become wandering spirits on the earth. In other words demons are the wandering spirits of the Nephilim.

  3. I appreciate the clarification. As I indicated, I do not treat Enoch as gospel. There are a lot of things in the Bible, I confess, I do not completely understand or understand more about each time I read it. But, if in reading a text such as Enoch, and if it conflicts with scripture. Scripture always trumps.

  4. I think Moses could just as likely be one of the two witnesses for a few reasons. The powers of the two witnesses are much more in line with Moses rather than Enoch.

    Also, 10 segments of 700 years doesn’t fit anything we know of bible history. I’m not sure how these periods of years begin and end on any relevant dates besides the beginning and the end ones. Giants hundreds of feet tall?? That is just ridiculous. 400 ft is bigger than godzilla…

    That said the book of Enoch is an interesting read.

  5. Hi Jim,

    If Moses became one of two witnesses how could he be killed and die again? I don’t think Moses had any powers to do anything. It was God that had the powers.

    The 700 years pretty much fits the narrative that was given. Why would it have to fit precise Bible history? It just breaks the 7000 years into seven periods and then says something to identify each of the periods.

    The book might not say anyone was 400 feet tall. The height mentioned may not be what was originally in the book. Angels might appear to be that tall. Some of those huge dinosaurs that roamed the earth are also hard to believe but they existed.

  6. Some observations. Lazarus died, and then died again. Many people in the Bible did so, too. This apparently is not a problem for God. I do see Jim’s point about the powers of the Witnesses being more in line with Moses . . . and with Elijah. That’s no proof, but it lends weight. Also, why do the Witnesses have to be any of these three characters? The Witnesses might very well be other persons/entities. I see no identification of them in Revelation. Enoch, I’ve read, is a “type” of the Church, and if that is true, then what is Enoch — the church — doing on earth during the time of Jacob’s trouble? Seems if we agree to that, we have to toss out the concept of a pre-trib rapture.

  7. Hi Doug,

    Points taken, but actually Enoch would not be on earth at the time of Jacob’s trouble. That occurs in the last 42 months. I also think the Bible is clear that one of the two witnesses will be Elijah. It also could be that there is a Rapture of believers at the same time that the two prophets are taken to heaven. Those taken would then be included in the Church because Jesus does not marry the Church until the last part of those seven years.

  8. I was probably wrong to doubt the 400′ tall giants. I seem to remember that Oral Roberts had a long conversation with a 900′ Jesus. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist a little joke, delete if out of line.) I have some doubts about what happened there too as I fail to recall any Biblical precedent. There are so many NAR type experiences that are not like those that are in scripture that I doubt all of them.

  9. When the end time false signs and wonders occur it will be obvious to all on earth. How about people seeing a 400 foot tall Queen of Heaven? I better make her a thousand feet or she will be shorter than Oral Roberts Jesus.

  10. Hi Don,

    Thank you for imparting your knowledge to us. It is a joy to understand and know more. A great book to read.

  11. a thoughtful expose on a tough subject. I actually came to the same conclusion as you, there is Enoch’s teaching, and then.someone used that to promote their own thoughts (later sections) .thanks for the historical insight.

  12. Perhaps the transfiguration could be a foreshadow of the two end time witnesses? Moses, (who represented the Law and expectation/fulfillment of the Law through Jesus Christ) “came back” then with Elijah. Mayhaps the two will pair up again in the end times?

  13. Don great topic thanks. I believe that one of the two witnesses will be Elijah and the other likely Enoch or Moses. Maybe the transfiguration was a type of precursor. If they are human. But maybe they are angelic like the two angels that came down to Soddom and ate with Lot. Maybe somehow they are allowed to be killed and resurrected. Also, is it possible that John the Baptist was actually Elijah?

  14. Hi Steve and Lara,

    The transfiguration vision is a valid argument if the bodies of Moses and Elijah are somehow being preserved until that time. The only way one could be Moses is if he was called back from the dead like Lazarus. The mention of Satan wanting the body of Moses gives credence to that view.

    My point was that the early church fathers believed that it would be Enoch and Elijah. The reasons why the early fathers thought that seems to have gotten muddled. Perhaps it was because of their access to the book of Enoch and other supporting writings. These writings were pretty much lost to the Church until recently. In these last days I do see more Christian text scholars claiming it will be Enoch.

    John the Baptist was asked the question directly. He said that he was not Elijah. Jesus implied that John came in the spirit of Elijah. However, they killed him as they would kill Jesus. The Bible is clear that Elijah will come just before the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the wrath of God on all unbelievers.

    I think being witnesses requires that they need to be eyewitnesses of the whole story of mankind on earth and not just the story from Moses. Why two witnesses? One of the ancient world before the flood and one after.

    The book of Enoch claims to be written for the end time generation so obviously the writer thought this generation needed to know what happened before the flood. If fallen angels, spirits of dead Nephilim (demons) and neo-Nephilim are involved in the end time deception, those living in that time need to understand these things.

  15. Thanks Don. Could there be an argument made for any of the OT prophets? Say Jeremiah or Isaiah? Maybe even John who wrote Revelation? Then again he probably would have said as much in the book.

    Anyway, with all the gene editing and the like going on these days, it’s easy to see how we are in the days of Noah. another point you made that raised my brow was how you explained that the Nephilim got smaller during each generation. This being the case, you could argue that there are millions +-among us today. Correct?

  16. Hi Steve,

    The two witnesses cannot be people that died. Risen people no longer have bodies that can be killed.

    Some say Roman Emperor Maximinus Thrax of 235 AD was 8ft 6in tall. He was not a skinny fellow either. He might of had Nephilim bloodlines. It is likely that inbreeding with humans made those that had these bloodlines smaller.

    Some would say the blood lines of Nephilim still exist in royal lines and in the elite of secret societies. I just started reading a very large book called The Genesis 6 Conspiracy that gets into all that.

  17. Don, Derek Gilbert recently interviewed the author of The Genesis 6 Conspiracy. It was a very interesting episode. That book is on my wish list. Here is a link to the interview, if you or your readers are interested: http://www.vftb.net/?p=6809

    Do let us know what you think of it.

  18. Hi Doug,

    I have seen interviews with Gary Wayne. He is impressive. Since the book is like an encyclopedia of information from Genesis until the tribulation there is only time for an interview on only one small part of what he writes about. The book is 700 pages of small print followed by over a 100 pages of documentation.

  19. My two cents worth…

    Two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah ..because they were caught away without seeing death;

    And regards the giants, Scripture tells us of Og king of Bashan who was a remnant of the giants and whose height is assessed as close to thirteen foot, his bedstead was of iron and nine cubits by four cubits. (I believe a cubit is around eighteen inches)

    Personal I believe the Genesis 6 ‘giants’ were bigger but that is my guess not God’s divine authority.

  20. Lots of interesting comments here , Genesis 6:4 says there were giants in the earth in those days and also after that.( The after that) has always puzzled me as I thought one of the purposes of The Flood was to remove them from being on the earth. Chuck Missler teaches that the reason Joshua was told to kill everyone when Jericho was taken was because of a gene pool problem.. That’s interesting because Rahab the harlot and her family were spared because she had hidden the spies previously. That would seem to infer Rahab’s family gene pool was not corrupted. Missler also says Rahab ( and also Ruth ) are a type of The Church as they become Gentile Brides . He also points out their death is never mentioned. . I have a copy of The Book of Enoch which says it was translated from the Ethiopic by Richard Laurence , Archbishop of Cashel in 1821 . It was published by a company known as Artisan Sales , copyright 1980. It is 105 chapters , 96 pages . I find it difficult reading , doesn’t ( in my opinion ) have any continuity to it like other prophetic writings such as Jeremiah , Ezekiel , Isaiah , Daniel , etc . Also have a Book of Jubilees by same published I find easier to read. This is all quite an interesting topic for discussion .

  21. Hi Don

    I have a link to the book of Enoch at the start of the article. Parts of it are difficult to understand but otherwise it is not hard to read.

    Apparently, all flesh on earth was being corrupted. That was the reason for the universal flood. There are various theories about why the Nephilim again appeared after the flood.

    I agree with Brian that the post flood Nephilim were smaller than the pre flood Nephilim. Their genetic mix was mostly human.

    I generally agree with Chuck Missler on such things.

  22. Thank for your comments Don. I understand the part that all flesh on earth was being corrupted prior to THE FLOOD, that’s why God wiped out everyone except Noah’s family. At least , that has always been my understanding. I am not aware of any of the various theories about The Nephilim being on earth again after The Flood , but scripture clearly says they were. It would seem to me that if God wants you wiped out that would end it.with finality. The Genesis 6 book you mentioned sounds really interesting , thinking of purchasing it .Lots of genetic experiments taking place currently , I believe those doing it may create a being they don’t want and will not be able to control their test tube being. Missler has long said he believes anti – christ has an exterrestial connection and The Vatican is somehow involved. I have always suspected The Pope as a candidate for the false prophet

  23. Hey Don,
    I would appreciate your discernment on why the angels were able to impregnate human women. Why did God give angels seed while all are male, maybe all life must contain seed? One bride for seven brothers in Luke 20:27-40 states that they would not be marriage in the kingdom and we would be like the angels? Genesis 3:15 speaks of the serpent’s seed and with the Nephilim inhabiting the earth before the flood, we are shown that the fallen angels seed was compatible with humans. WHY? You may have covered this in the many resources that your site contains and forgive me if this inquiry had been covered.

  24. Don,

    The theories for the Nephilim after the flood are basically what follows:

    The wifes of Noah’s sons carried the genes.
    Some Nephilim built their own ark.
    Some went underground in the caverns of the earth.
    Some were taken by space ships.
    The flood was not universal.
    Other angels did the same thing after the flood.
    People learned the mystical arts of genetic manipulation and recreated the Nephilim

  25. Hi Stephen,

    Apparently, the angels that came to earth lusted after women and wanted offspring of their own. They probably wanted their own kingdom on earth to play god. To do what they wanted they became like men. They thought they could make the hybrid offspring (Nephilim) immortal but God was angry about what they did and chained the fallen angels until judgment. The offspring eventually died but because they have a evil spirit they were not allowed in Heaven. They are the wandering spirits on the earth seeking people to posses.

    By the way, from what I read. The fallen angels had a hard time producing offspring. Most of the women died in childbirth and most that lived lived because the baby was delivered by a crude c section. Also most of the hybrid that lived probably could not reproduce themselves. The difficulty was similar to trying to mate two different species today. Usually there is no success or an abortion but sometimes you get a offspring with the genetics of both usually these hybrids are sterile but not always.

    The passages in the New Testament about angels in Heaven not marrying is talking about angels in Heaven, not the fallen angels that became like men and lived on the earth. Angels were never created to marry.

  26. Don ,
    Thanks for the information , had never heard those theories before .

  27. Don,

    I pretty much agree with your explanation. I’ve had this discussion before, and my pat answer to those who cite that verse about angels in heaven not marrying is, since when is “marriage” a prerequisite for procreation?

    As far as how the Nephs came back after the flood, I think it likely that the genes were brought over somehow in Noah’s sons or daughters-in-law. If Nimrod was a Neph, then that would point a finger at Ham and his wife. The Bible only states that Noah was perfect in his generation, meaning his genealogy. Maybe Mrs. Noah’s bloodlines had been tainted?

    I do like the spaceship explanation, however. The giants could have hid themselves on Mars and built that giant face in the Cydonia region while biding their time. 😉

  28. Hi Doug,

    I have read that Noahs wife was the daughter of Enoch which would have made her blood lines pure. More likely if there were any Nephilim genes passed down it would have come from the wives of Noah’s sons

  29. If God had the intent to cleanse earth of the infected gene pool by using the flood to do so , then why didn’t He accomplish it ? Don, I find the article very interesting but have more questions than answers just like others. I did listen to the interview with the author of ” The Genesis 6 conspiracy”. I found it to be intriguing as I do with the book of enoch but in my opinion it is not solid biblical evidence. I am not saying, that anyone is wrong or right on the interpretation of the Bible. Who am I to do that? Just my opinion for now.

  30. This is a fascinating topic. I’ve read the Book of Enoch but I need an interpreter to understand most of it. I’ve also started watching Gary Wayne videos. He talks about some of what is in his book.

    One thing I’m curious about is were there no female Nephilim? No one has mentioned it. Was it a male specific gene so to produce more Nephilim they had to mix with humans?

    I think it was in the Book of Enoch that God told the rebel watchers that He didn’t make wives for them because they were spirit beings. I don’t remember the exact words.

  31. Hi George,

    I think you missed the point. All air breathing life was being corrupted. That was the reason for the flood and the reason why pure species went on the ark. The idea that the post flood Nephilim came out of the genes of those on the ark is only one theory for the post flood Nephilim that may or may not be true. If God were to have killed everyone in the flood, there would be no human race from Adam and that would have made God a liar. Because God said Satan would be crush by the seed of Eve.

    Obviously the book of Enoch is not solid Biblical evidence, it is an extra biblical book. It does help explain some of what is said in the Bible and what the ancients believed. Jude and Peter apparently believed the account enough to express some of what they said about fallen angels.

  32. Hi Caitlin,

    A dominate male gene seems likely. On the other hand, I have heard researchers say that there are reports of female Nephilim. Maybe they do not get the press because they were not as big or strong. Or maybe the males could not put up with all their screaming and killed them.

    What you said comes from the Book of Enoch. The Watchers were not meant to become earth dwellers. Nobody should confuse the Watchers with the Nephilim though. The Nephilim were the offspring of the Watchers and women.

  33. Don, is there any evidence or perhaps just speculation that the Dinosaurs themselves were actually a result of this corruption? Or maybe just the meat eating ones?

  34. Hi Steve,

    I have not heard of anything, but God did not have the meat eating Dinosaurs on earth right after His creation when He declared that everything He created was good. So it seems likely to me that the Dinosaurs came about through the genetic corruption of the Watchers. Unless one wants to believe in the gap theory where all that was just talking about a recreation and the Dinosaurs were millions of years ago. I do not believe that.

    By the way, the pre flood Nephilim were said to have been dragon slayers. So Dinosaurs existed on earth in their days.

  35. Hi Don,

    Your statement is confusing. Not sure how one can make a distinction between meat eaters and non-meat eaters in a unobserved, historical context. I know evolutionist do it all the time and call it “science”, but it really isn’t since “observation” is one of the requirements of the scientific method. Morphology doesn’t help. Just look at the fruit bat. All we have are bones, and those don’t say much about the how the dinosaur’s brain was wired. When did carnivory actually begin? God’s command was for animals and humans to eat plants, but I’m not sure how much the animals would have cared about that after the Fall. After Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the Garden, it might not have taken long for those animals with a carnivorous bent to discover that blood and flesh was tasty. Humans, however, may have obeyed God’s command for many generations. Or maybe not. I just don’t seen any good reason to think dinosaurs were not part of the original creation, or to attribute their existence to some sort of angelic manipulations. Are there any ancients MS that you are aware of that postulate this theory?

  36. Hi Doug,

    I did not say that Dinosaur’s were not part of the original creation. What are Dinosaurs anyway?

    The large meat eating dinosaurs that there are bones of, could not have ever survived by eating grass. Something had to have changed.

    All creation was corrupted, that is why all creation is eagerly waiting for the sons of God to be manifested.

    Ancient manuscripts talk about monstrosities, dragons and sea monsters, they did not call them dinosaurs. I have heard those that research such things claim that there are ancient writings that tie pre-flood monstrosities to the fallen angels and Nephilim. I am not going to find them for you. To find them you would need to read the archeological writings found in ancient civilizations and read ancient historians and mythology. You might first look for a book on the subject.
    You might ask Josh Peck, Gilbert, Heiser, Ken Johnson, Horn, Lake or L.A. Marzulli about specific sorcery powers of the fallen angels.

  37. Hi Don,

    I have no misgivings about the powers of angels. Fact is, I believe the computers you and I are communicating on at this moment were derived from “forbidden knowledge” given by angels to further corrupt mankind and pave the way for the end-time Man of Sin. But then, I admit to being something of a Luddite who sometimes suffers from flights of fantasies. 😉 The question that came to mind was how you determined that dinosaurs were meat eaters, or that the angels genetically changed the dinosaurs? I’ve heard this theory before — I believe Jack Kelley used to teach it. I’ve seen no documentation . . . and I have researched the pre-flood era quite a bit, years ago for a series of book I was writing at that time about about Noah. Since you made the statement, I thought you might be drawing on some published material. Maybe one of your readers knows of such documentation?

  38. Doug,

    You can tell what they ate by their teeth. Most dinosaurs were herbivores but some like the T. Rex ate meat.

    You tell me how dinosaurs like the T. Rex came into being out of what God created if fallen angels had nothing to do with it?

    The book of Jubilee gives us a hint.

    “When the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, and the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful, and they took themselves wives of all, whom they chose, and they gave birth to their sons and they were giants.
    “Because of them lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way. Men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walked on the earth were all corrupted in their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other. Lawlessness increased on the earth and the imagination and thoughts of all men were continually, totally evil” (Jubilees 5:1, 2).

    The Book of Giants also says that the Nephilim created a legion of monsters via mixing DNA of different animals.

    I have my own theory. The Nephilim wanted attack dogs so they bred the T. Rex like some Neanderthals breed junk yard dogs today.

  39. The only real reason I suggested that perhaps the dinosaurs were a result of angelic interference was due to the immense size of some of the beasts.

    Some of the different species classified as dinosaurs were not as large as say the brontosaurus. Which leads me to believe there was manipulation, especially among the T-Rex, velociraptor, and other predatory species.

    Of course I take many of these understandings from modern science, but perhaps science is wrong. I believe one could simply examine the teeth and perhaps claws/talons of the species to make these determinations. However, maybe they just ate fish?

  40. Don, funny I was just thinking that the Nephs probably used T-Rex as an attack dog.

  41. that bird that used to fly in the dinosaur age with those huge wings was actually the size of a jumbo jet.. now thats a massive bird

  42. Bad, bad, Leroy Brown . . . 😉

    I like your analogy, Don. It makes for an interesting, maybe humerous, mental image. Thanks for the reference. That does sorta, kinda point in the direction that these critters may have been altered by the angels, pre-flood. I’ll have to dig out my copy of Jubilees buried somewhere under piles of books in the studio.

  43. Brian Huggett , I find your blog link useful , Thank you , BLESSINGS !!!!!

  44. I was watching a video when I heard something that made me think I needed to get a grip on my imagination so I watched it again. Gary Wayne and “Now You See TV” host talking about DNA manipulation in the antidiluvian world and Wayne said centaurs were real (or may have been real) and we can expect to see such manipulations again. It was just a brief discussion around the 47 minute mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Qv9Jfirac. I don’t know what to think about this.

    I’ve read that scientists want to bring back the woolly mammoth and the saber toothed tiger. Just wait until some crazy wants to bring back T-Rex. But don’t worry, the transhumans will just have them as pets.

    I’m half joking but it appears that In The Days of Noah is going to be a whole lot stranger than we traditionally believed.

  45. Don I’m beginning to be more in line with the gap of time between the rapture and onset of the tribulation theory so to speak.

    It seems as if there will need to be quite some time to bring back the fullness of Noah’s day. Of course many of the characteristics are already here, but the complete genetic manipulation of populations, human or animal does not seem to have been accomplished.

    I’m not doubting that much has already been done in a lab or controlled environment. But it would appear that we still have quite a ways to go on that front.

    I believe the technology is there or nearly there so maybe once the Antichrist appears it will be full bore. I don’t know? Any ideas?

  46. Hi Steve,

    I do not think extra time between the Rapture and the second coming will be necessary. Whatever the Beast does and the deception that he brings on earth only occurs for 42 months. God is not going to let the genetic manipulation go as far as it did in the days of Noah. Many humans will live through the tribulation, not just one family.

    I think it will be more like contact with inter-dimensional beings that will give some lying message that they were the Elohim that created man and God is a force that is in all of creation (pantheism). They will claim that many paths help man evolve to godhood. The Mark will probably be a tool to enhance the flesh and to tap into a collective mind/hive using computers and communications, but God is going to cut all that short. The enemy of deceived mankind will become YHWH. They will claim that he is a renegade controlling Elohim that must be defeated.

    Satan always stands truth on its head and his minions push these lies as truth. Much like the Satanically controlled Democratic Party and Media.

    The deception probably will play out very much like Western New Age and Word of Faith expectations.

  47. Hi Don,
    Two comments.
    First, I recall hearing that reptiles continue to grow in size until they die. I heard a suggestion years ago off of a Chuck Missler tape that perhaps back when lives were much longer for men, the same was true for animals and this could be what ended up being what we call dinosaurs.

    Second, I am about half way through a book that I am thoroughly enjoying written back in the mid 60’s by Donald Grey Barnhouse entitled “The Invisible War”.
    The reason I heard about it was because I was listening to one of Chucks CDs called “The Origins of Evil” and Chuck mentioned this book as being one of a “Must Have” for the Christians library.
    I noticed right off that Barnhouse does think there was something to the gap theory and he explained how it was part of the invisible war that is still going on between God and Satan.

    Have you read this book and what are your thoughts on it?

  48. Hi Don Palmer,

    I have not read Barnhouse’s book.

    I have heard the lizard theory. A long life might account for the size of some dinosaurs but it does not explain a lot of other things. For example, dinosaurs with huge teeth or flying dinosaurs.

    Cain was living for quite a few years on earth after he killed Able. Who was Cain building cities for? Some say for those human creatures created on the sixth day. Apparently they believe those created on the sixth day and the creation of Adam to tend the garden at Eden were two separate creations.

    Accordingly, Seth was born in order to defeat the serpent seed that came about through Cain. The ongoing war is between the lineage from Adam and the lineage from natural humans corrupted by Satan through Cain. The wheat and the tares? I do not know how that might play out in any gap theory. I do not believe in any old earth theories. Most are based on the lie of evolution.

    I do try to keep an open mind on biblical theories.

  49. I highly recommend the book The Invisible War by Donald Grey Barnhouse. The gap theory is interesting and makes a lot of sense to me. However, it is speculation .

  50. Hi Don,

    There may be other reasons beyond trying to support evolution to find a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Is it possible there existed a previous creation containing only spiritual beings, and no death? This spiritual world would be a convenient place to put the fall of Lucifer. And then again, a gap might possibly have contain nothing at all but water; the deep. The Bible is vague. What was God’s actual timetable for creation, before Genesis 1:3? He could have created an initial state of being — of building blocks, so to speak — and then sometime later continued the work of fashioning a world as we see today. The actual creation week doesn’t begin until the 3rd verse. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there was a gap, or even supporting the theory, only that there can be other explanations for it. I definitely would not put a pre-adamic race, dinosaurs, and trilobites in a gap. And as far as death before the Fall, I’ve often wondered what might have happened had Adam’s foot accidentally come down upon a nest of pinkies? Did squashed pre-Fall mice not die? If so, does that mean they were actually spiritual entities? Was all of creation spiritual until the Fall? Adam, after all, wasn’t suppose to die. I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I think there is much more going on than we are told, and understand.

  51. of possible interest..when it talks about the corruption of all flesh,maybe it didn;t just mean genetic tinkering. I’m a bit of a nature buff…anyway,it seems..deer will eat birds, squirrels will eat small animals,hippos will eat meat in the dry season,chimps will kill and eat smaller animals…perhaps the corruption of nature is well on its way.

  52. Doug,

    Obviously a creation of spiritual beings occurred before the creation of man. I do not see how any of that in any way supports the gap theory where creatures of flesh lived and died on earth for millions of years before the creation of Adam. There could not have been death before the fall and the curse that brought about death. The gap theory says there was. Read the link. http://www.icr.org/article/why-gap-theory-wont-work/

  53. Don, I sort of agree with Doug. Not necessarily on the “gap theory” as many explain it to justify evolution, but to try to explain some inexplicable existing archeological sites. There may have been something in the gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and possibly between chapters 1 and 2. To accept the millions of years “science” claims with evolution, the unstated assumptions, science uses needs to be understood. Age is based on the size of the universe and on radioactive decay rates. The age estimates is based, in part, on the assumption that the speed of light has been constant. It may have varied with size and density of matter in the universe. Science does not and probably cannot know. The same is true for radioactive decay rates. Our historical sample measurement time is too short to know, but I’ve heard that the Plutonium at SNL has had some slight change in decay rate from the 1945 measurement.

    I have read (I personally would not know) that the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1 implies or means the creation was perfect. In verse two the Earth is without form and void.

    I never understood why in Genesis 1:28 is man told to “replenish the earth”.

    In Genesis 2, after day seven, God creates a garden and puts Adam in it. Why if creation is perfect?

    I think that there is some basis for a gap of some time, when something happened. One archeological site of interest would be Gobekli Tepe. It is in southern Turkey barely north of Syria. The site was buried for some reason (like the pillars in the book you mention, or I think in Jasher pre-flood) and the site is 10000 years old. Humans were supposed to be nomads then. Who built it and why is unknow. It is probably pre-flood.

    I do think that the Bible does, in fact, tell us all that we really NEED to know. The other stuff is interesting.

  54. Accordingly, Seth was born in order to defeat the serpent seed that came about through Cain. The ongoing war is between the lineage from Adam and the lineage from natural humans corrupted by Satan through Cain. The wheat and the tares?

    Don, will you clarify the above statement? Are you saying that there is a physical seed being passed down through the genetics of Cains lineage from the serpent? I must be misunderstanding what you are saying. Thanks

  55. This is certainly an interesting thread and seems to have generated lots of it. The Angelic Conflict and infiltration, the GAP theory are topics I have spent some time with; in both agreement and disagreement with those who I studied under, so it was serious business. The snippet I include is a paragraph (or two) from the longer article I have added a lead to below (if you are interested).

    “My original rejection of the GAP theory was based upon a straight forward reading of God’s account of the history (to-led-aw’, to-led-aw’) of Genesis 1:1 to 2:4-5 (see above). Nevertheless the creation of angels had always been a major point of concern because I associated their creation with the creation of time and space. However with a separate creation of spirit beings this problem of time no longer exists for me.

    From the Biblical account it is clear that God’s creation of the material universe (especially seen in the creation of human beings) was to finalise a ‘personality’ conflict from eternity past. It is clear from certain passages of Scripture that that conflict arose because of the pride and arrogance of a ‘super’ angel in his desire to be like the Most High. A conflict that we see now extended to the world of men, a conflict between good and evil and one no sane person can deny.”

    http://brianhuggett.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/against-gap-theory-genesis-11-in.html

  56. I followed the link provided as to why the gap theory won’t work. According to that version it won’t. How many versions of the gap theory are there? I’ve only read one and it had nothing to do with evolution. I’m not discounting it but it’s a long topic so I’ll just leave it at that.

  57. What you guys are missing is that with the gap theory there is violence and death on the earth even before the curse. If you had read the link I gave you in my last comments, you would know that any such concept is contrary to the nature of God, contrary to the salvation story given and it makes Jesus death to take away sin and death of no account.

    Even if their were Spirit beings on the earth before Adam, the existence of spirit beings do not explain the natural creatures that lived and died and that gap people claim existed before the creation of Adam.

    The dating used for pre flood civilizations and rocks are totally unreliable. It is based on circlier reasoning and the theory of uniformitarianism. The earth had catastrophic changes that nullifies that theory.

  58. george,

    I said, some say that. I did not say it was a theory that I believe. Gary Wayne seems to believe that. I will have to read more of his very long book (The Genesis 6 conspiracy) to see where he will be taking it. In the first hundred pages that I read so far, I see some big cautions.

    I do not see much reason to take things beyond what God revealed in scripture. If God thought we should know such things it would be readily available to the Church.

  59. Caitlin,

    I believe there is only one gap theory. Some might spin it in different ways. Some will claim evolution and other won’t but the fact is that you cannot have death before the curse. The gap theory really is a scheme to try to buy time for God to answer scientific criticism but that is reading into the Bible. The Christian creation sites do much better explaining what happened pre flood than those using the gap theory. Modern science agrees with neither.

  60. Don,
    I missed the ” some say that”. Thanks for clarifying it. I also agree with you about the gap theory hogwash. I don’t think anyone would have thought about that theory until evolution was crammed into everyones brain. In my opinion evolution is a religion and the gap theory tries to support it.

  61. Don , per your earlier question to me about Barnhouse and the gap theory. Dr. Barnhouse makes it clear in the 1st chapter of The Invisible War that he believes the gap theory. He cites Isaiah 45:18 as evidence. I read the link you inserted and I have great respect for the scholarship of Dr. Henry Morris. Since it had been several years since I read Barnhouse’s book I have started to read it again . My experience has been that scientists who are Christians reject the gap theory.By scientists I mean men who have degrees in the field of science . I did not intend to state that I believe the gap theory , but I do find it interesting. I do not reject it either because i see no conclusive proof one way or the other. In the end it really doesn’t matter because it has no bearing on anyone’s eternal destiny which is really what matters to me .

  62. Hi again Don,
    I see this topic has stirred up a bit, Barnhouse doesn’t require any evolution ideas to be necessary, he does see this as part of a master plan of God. He says, “He is giving us the story of the eternal plan, with special emphasis on man:s complete ruin in sin, and His own perfect remedy in Christ.”

    Here are excerpts from “The Invisible War”:
    “On the one side of the abyss stands the phrase, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” We come to the other side and read the second verse as it is found the KJV: “and the earth was without form and void, and darkness covered the face of the deep.” In French there is a common expression which translates our idea of topsy-turvy: it is tohu-bohu
    an expression transliterated from the Hebrew of this second verse of Genesis. These are words which various translators have rendered “without form”, “void”, “waste”, “desolate”, “empty”, “wreck” “ruin”. Just here the importance of the comparative method of Bible study is seen. In Isaiah 45:18 we read that God did not create the world as it found in the second verse of Genesis: “For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not tohu…” Here is the same Hebrew word as in the second verse of the Bible. It is a formal statement: God did not create the earth as it is portrayed in the description that has commonly been called chaos….
    This categorical statement is sufficient to prove beyond any shadow of doubt that the first and second verses are separated by an interval. We might read the two verses from Genesis and the one from Isaiah as follows: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth-(though God most certainly did not create it that way) became a wreck and a ruin, and darkness covered the face of the deep.”
    “That we have every right to translate the verb by the continuing form “became” is amply demonstrated by the fact that this precise form is thus translate in other parts of the Old Testament, as for example,
    “Lot”s wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt”
    If a perfect God should create a very imperfect world, chaotic, waste and desolate, a wreck and a ruin, it would be a violation of one of the great spirityal principles, stated by the Holy Spirit Himself: A fountain cannot send forth sweet water and bitter. James 3:11

  63. Hi Don Palmer,

    I think I understand the gap theory arguments. The gap theory was not original with Dr. Barnhouse. Certain Christians started looking for a new defense after modern evolutionary and old earth science disputed the creation story. The Scofield Study Bible notes made the gap theory popular in this country. It then fell out of favor with the evangelicals because of the difficulties mentioned by Dr. Morris and it is now making a minor resurgence because of people like Dr. Hugh Ross.

    The gap theory is not believed by scientists for various reasons and is not believed by the liberal church. It is mainly believed by a minor amount of evangelicals that think the theory agrees with science and does not comprise God’s inerrant word. It really does not agree with science and it suggests things that are contrary to God’s word. Dr. Morris makes that clear in the link that I provided.

    http://www.icr.org/article/why-gap-theory-wont-work/

    Nobody has told me how death came to be on earth before the fall of Adam brought sin, death and the curse?

  64. The only death that MAY have happened before Adam was created in the 6th day was the spiritual death of the fallen angels. The gap theory just tries to appease those who don’t believe in a literal translation of God’s word.

  65. re: gap: I stand firm, with fundamental, respected, and unwavering creationists: There is not a shred of scientific evidence to support evolution/global-warming.

    Evolution/global-warming is a litter zone of frauds, hoaxes and lies.

  66. Hi Don, what is your opinion on an Elijah coming to restore all things to prepare Christ bride and then taken up in rapture with the believers and then the double “Elisha” anointing (two witnesses) during the tribulation period… two witnesses doesn’t restore anything but destruction torment…e.g. John the Baptist prepared the way for Christ Jesus , they both suffered…and died…the White horse in Rev 6:2 Elijah and Rev 19 white horse Christ Jesus….

  67. Hi Jim,

    I think the Rapture is prior to or near the same time as the start of the last seven years. The early Church fathers taught this and probably got it from John. The rapture will come prior to Elijah coming to restore things and he will, but the false Messiah will arrive and claim to be the Messiah that he is not and will kill them. I don’t think the white horse rider in Revelation 6:2 is Elijah. It probably is the leader that will later become the Antichrist.

  68. Hi Jim,

    I do not like it when people ask me to critique a teaching. Can you imagine if everyone did that on this blog?

    It was short so I listened to it. The guy started off good but he is mixed up. I guess this young guy tried to teach it before he even had basic understanding of biblical Eschatology. He says Elijah will get the world to come to believe and then God will not have to send the curse on the world. However, Revelation says the world rejoices when Elijah is killed. It also says The Day of the Lord with the wrath of God comes right after Elijah is killed.

    He mentions nothing about Elijah being killed and he thinks the Church will be on earth during the time of Elijah’s testimony and that there will be no judgment. The guy probably is a Word of Faith Kingdom Now heretic and post trib.

  69. We have returned to the times of Noah. Supernovas have marked the time after Christ defeated death and sin on the cross. That day was 03 Apr 33AD.

    The brightest supernova ever to be recorded happened 30 Apr to 01 May 1006. What is unusual about this is the days are totally related to satanism. In Dietrich Eckhart’s memoirs (founder of nazism) he stated that when hitler gazed upon the spear of longinus he was possessed by the spirit of satan. hitler faked his death on walpurghisnacht 30 Apr 1945. Exactly 21 years later the US satanic church was formed by anton lavey. This 30 Apr day is the eve of beltane. “May first” is the only date to equal 666 in English gematria.

    On 04 Jul 1054 ( birthdate of US) another supernova appeared. In 1033 before this the world was in mass hysteria due to the fact that it was 1000 years after the crucifixion of Christ. Look at the difference. 1054 – 1033 = 21 years which I think was setting the stage for these endtimes. This same supernova disappeared on 06 Apr 1056. This is the calendar day after Christ was resurrected.

    What becomes obvious is that these signs in the sky show an overlay of preflood times. Noah was born 1056 years after creation. The flood occurred 1656 years after creation. Take that number and make it 1656AD. Now add the life of Enoch before he walked with God. 1656 + 365 = 2021. Are we being formed for the Kingdom in this mold of Enoch? Is the 7th trumpet event in 2021? There is certainly an argument for it.

    When you add the life of Abraham it becomes clear that something is going on. From creation including the time of the flood to the birth of Abraham (the father of Israel) is 1948 years. Israel was reborn as a nation 14 May 1948. The covenant God made with Abraham was in his 70th year. Transpose this to this time. 1948 + 70 = 2018. The difference of 2018 to 2021 could account for the 1260 days the gates of hades would prevail on earth as the antichrist reigns.

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