Does the war of Psalms 83 come before the war of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39?
I have not read the book “Isralestine”, by Bill Salus but it sounds like an intriguing prophetic explanation of end time events. Almost all futurist Bible prophecy students will agree that there are three end time wars involving Israel. However, we disagree somewhat on the timing of first two wars. Those wars being the Ezekiel Chapter 38 and 39 war where Gog comes down with a host of nations and the Psalms 83 war where a confederacy of nations attempts to cut Israel off from being a nation. In the mix somewhere is the destruction of Damascus since the prophecy has never been fulfilled yet.
I have heard enough about this book to know that Bill Salus makes a strong case for the war of Psalms 83 coming first. I believe the premise is that after the aftermath of the Psalms 83 war that brings the destruction of Damascus, Israel will expand its borders. That will allow Israel to have the security that is implied by Ezekiel at the time of the Gog invasion. At that time Russia will come down with a host of nations against Israel and God will intervene.
In the past, I have tended to put the Ezekiel war first and I placed the Psalm 83 war in the middle of the tribulation making that the reason why the Jews flee to the mountains. However, Bill Salus may be correct, it does answer a whole lot of questions.
If you have read this book I would appreciate your own insights.
Israel destroys Damascus, then Russia invades
Indeed Russia and Iran are ready to make their moves, but what about Syria? Oddly Syria, who today panders alongside Iran for Russian affections, is not included among the elite nine members of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 consortium of attacking nations. Why not? What knocks their quiver of missiles out of the Ezekiel military equation?
As I have documented in my recently released book, “Isralestine, The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East,” the Bible makes quite clear that in a distinctly separate Psalm 83 episode Damascus, the capital of Syria, soon ceases to be a city, and subsequently shortly thereafter Russia and Iran advance against Israel.
Furthermore “Isralestine” explains how the destruction of Damascus followed by the Ezekiel invasion sets the stage for the final tribulation period, whereby the Antichrist rallies his Armageddonites together in one last days ditch effort to destroy the Jewish race.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin
Thus there are three scheduled end time advances against Israel, not just Ezekiel’s. First comes Psalm 83, the Arab-Israeli war, followed promptly by the Ezekiel 38 and 39 Russian – Iranian invasion, and lastly the campaign of Armageddon by the Antichrist.
The destruction of Damascus will be such a powerful world event that Isaiah was instructed to boldly and succinctly state, the burden against Damascus. “Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city, And it will be a ruinous heap.” (Isaiah 17:1, NKJV) Isaiah further announces that the fortified cities of Syria will be forfeited into Israeli sovereignty. (Isaiah 17:9) This suggests that the dooming of Damascus and conquest of Syria results from of an Israeli Defense Forces campaign.
Amos and Jeremiah echo this 2,800-year-old Isaiah prophecy by prophetically uttering some additional details they were given. Amos declares that the capitol building of Syria will go up in smoke, and that the nation as a whole, will go into captivity. (Amos 1:3-5) Jeremiah concurs and furthermore declares the Syrian military will be decisively defeated, and in addition many young men will die in the blood-stained streets of Damascus. (Jeremiah 49:23-27)
Date posted: Wednesday, October 1st, 2008 7:25 pm | Under category: Bible prophecy teachers, Israel, Jew-hatred, Tribulation period
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“Isralestine is a fascinating book about end time prophecy in the Middle East. The Lord has given the author a gift for understanding and applying ancient Hebrew prophecies to our day and time. The book is well researched and well written. It is not sensationalist in nature, nor is it wildly speculative. It is biblically based and contains some NEW INSIGHTS that help make sense of end time prophecies. I highly recommend it to all who are interested in understanding what God is doing in the Middle East today and what His plans are for the future of all the nations in the region.”
Dr. David Reagan – Lamb & Lion Ministries
more endorsements at http://isralestine.org/24501.html
Review by Terry James of Raptureready.com http://www.raptureready.com/terry/book1.html
Review by Prophecyinthenews.com http://isralestine-blog.blogspot.com/2008/09/isralestine-ancient-blueprints-of.html
Bill, thanks for the additional endorsement links. It is not often that a new book comes out on Bible prophecy with new insight on the issue that is not promoting some very speculative private interpretations based on moon shadows and dating schemes.
This is one book I will immediately get and read and I would recommend all serious Bible prophecy students do likewise because time is short. The first phase, the war of Psalm 83 might be upon us very shortly. At this point i would believe it would then be pre-trib and pre-rapture. I do not know the time duration of the greater Israel living in security until Gog comes down, but I would think the Ezekiel war is at least a decade or so in the future for many reasons. But I need to read the book to see what Bill is saying.
I also find it Interesting that in today’s news a unconfirmed report said that Syria is now once again rebuilding its nuclear program with the aid of North Korea and Iran. If this is true it gives even more reason for the destruction of Damascus and the greater Isralestine.
Blessings in Christ,
Don
Don; email me your address and I’ll make sure you get your courtesy promotional copy promptly. bill@isralestine.net
Done
Hay Bill, I am getting rejections from your email but it is unclear on what it is rejecting. It says the mailbox is full. If you got my mailing address just ignore this. If you did not get my address email me at
don@thepropheticyears.com
I have read Isralestine and give my critique of the book on my website.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/war_of_Pslam_83_and_enlarged_Israel.htm
Comments on my critique can be made on the following post
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/2008/11/17/a-critique-of-the-book-isralestine-that-suggests-that-the-war-of-psalm-83-is-imminent.html
Bill,
I have read Israelestine and it certainly brought together information that makes a lot of sense. The Psalm 83 war coming first seems to be right. When Damascus is reduced to a smoking ruin and Israel has expanded her borders to take in the surrounding areas (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, parts of Suadi Arabia, The West Bank and Gaza) and her closest enemies have been eliminated, Israel will then dwell in peace with no walls, making her look an easy prey to the Russian Bear. These facts coupled with the fact that Israel has discovered a natural gas field with 8 trillion cubic feet of Gas off her Northern coast, as well as the predicted discovery of huge oil finds in the Joseph area of Israel and at the southern end of the Dead Sea, leads me to believe that this is the “hook” God will place in Russia’s jaw to bring her down. The fact that Israel wins the Psalm 83 war by the strength of her army, but wins the Gog and Magog war because of divine intervention will make her the object of fear and reverence to the rest of the world. Islam will be eliminated as a force since Allah will be totally discredited, but this will not please the AntiChrist, who will make a deal with Israel, not to save her but to neutralize her growing power.
I have come to a similar conclusion after reading the book. I also have since wrote a review of Bill’s book.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/war_of_Pslam_83_and_enlarged_Israel.htm
Vladimir, means world ruler, world prince what danial called him, and he has the same treaties as the anti-christ with. theses nations
Vladimir, means world ruler? Koenig, means King so what? We really do not speak Russian here.
Gog has the same treaties as the the Antichrist? Show me where Gog has the same treaties as the Antichrist from Bible prophecy? I already know there is no such connection.
Don – I just read your Isralestine review. Thanks for taking the time to write the book and present your review of it. A quick note, I don’t believe that in the immediate aftermath of Ps. 83 that the nation of Israel will expand fully into all of the Genesis 15:18 territory. I expect they will primarily take over modern day Jordan, and a small part of North Eastern Egypt. In addition the government of Israel at the time may encourage the establishment of some new Jewish settlements and / or outposts in a few more strategic bits of soil in Southern Lebanon, Southern Syria, and Northern Saudi Arabia. Furthermore I hope Israel does not have to fight off the Ps. 83 Arab confederates alone, but due to the fact that I’ve not yet found scriptures supporting the involvement of an enjoining broader coalition I suspect Israel will stand alone in this war. (Ezekiel 25:14, Obadiah 1:18). This conclusion is also fueled by looking at the present prevelant international attitude of Isolation toward Israel.
Correction to my comments above. Thanks for taking the time to read the book (not write) and for writing the review. Perhaps that was a freudian slip and you should write a postscript to the book sharing your view of the coming Ps. 83 war.
Tell me whom you define as Gog
Hi Bill,
I wrote that review of your book quite some time ago. I know that you think the expansion takes place in two or more phases. I think there has to be some major paradigm shift in the Middle East for Israel to conquer and hold the lands that you indicate. Otherwise the world would go nuts and Israel could not be living in peace and security at the time of the Ezekiel 38-39 war.
My own take on how this can be happen is that the West will soon have a world war with all of the radical Islamic states. After the world war is over I think a Mediterranean Union will be the real superpower in the Western world and Israel will be part of the regional power. I know Israel is to included in the Mediterranean Union recently formed by France. I am suggesting that the proposed Mediterranean Union actually becomes the revised Roman Empire not the EU. The make-up of the nations in the EU today is all wrong to fulfill a revised Roman Empire but the nations proposed for the Mediterranean Union fit the old Roman boundaries to a tee.
That also gives good reason why the coming prince confirms the covenant with the many for seven years. Israel will be delegated the power to run the show in that area of the Middle East until the roman covenant with them is broken. I am not saying that Israel will not be the power that conquers the Arab nations around Israel. I am saying it looks to me like the war of Psalm 83 is only part of a much larger world war against Islamic extremism that rages from Europe to India. I do not know if the war to cut off Israel will start the world war or if the world war will actually kick off the war of Psalm 83. It does not matter the end results would be the same. That is the only logical way that I can see Israel greatly expanding its power in today’s world. It can only do so if it an ally in greater world war effort.
John, the Bible defines him as the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. People differ since there are some connections with both Turkey and Russia but I think it is talking about the leader of Russia. In fact I think both nations will take place in this war along with many other named nations. However, Gog is not the Antichrist for many reasons. Just one reason being the armies of Gog and the Antichrist are destroyed in different locations.
Don – I’m familiar with your M.U. theory, and think it could be possible. I personally favor the Western European model over the M.U. model, but definately over the Beast from the East hypothesis. Have you found any scripture to support your West vs. Islam theory? We know that scripture supports the wars of Ps. 83 and Ez. 38-39. Also Matthew 24:7 talks about nation coming against nation, which I believe already occurred in WW I & II. Are you coming up with this conclusion out of Daniel 11 or somewhere?
Lastly I appreciate your ability to dissect Isralestine and see how your model meshes with and around my Ps. 83 hypothesis. The book was intended to inject the Ps. 83 prophecy into the scholarly community to stimulate this type of thinking.
Bill, I would say the M.U. model is the revised Roman Empire implied by Daniel. It is a better Western European model then the European Union. Once the EU started including East European nations it no longer fit the revised Roman Empire of Daniel. Almost all premillennial prophecy teachers would agree that the present alignment of the EU will not be the final alignment anyway. All I am saying is that the EU somehow shape shifts into the borders of the MU. They might even still call it the EU but it will be on the borders of the proposed MU and not on the borders of the EU of today. I also think that Russia will soon form a new alliance of nations and we will see some of those nations that joined the EU return to the new Russian Union. The alignment of nations before the breakup of the Soviet Union made much more sense to me for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy than the alignment that we see today.
Does scripture support my West against radical Islam theory? Maybe not directly but scripture does not give much detail on future wars unless Israel is involved. I already suggested in my prior comment that the war of Psalm 83 could be a subset of what will be a world war. I also suggest in my Revelation commentary (but I am not dogmatic about it) that the first seals of Revelation could take place before the 70th week of Daniel even begins. I see no indication from Revelation that God is dealing with Israel again until the sealing of the 144,000 Jews.
Unconventional thinking l know, but I think when the ecumenical Roman Harlot is expecting some sort of Christ to appear 7 years after the start of a major world war or perhaps the Rapture the Harlot instead will be turned on and burned by a Satanic Antichrist that I think will lead a counter revolution against the Harlot from the followers of luciferian “New Age” beliefs. Then he sets up his Kingdom in Babylon where it all started. I said all that to say this, the war against radical Islam might be one of the two wars mentioned in the seals. It also could be the beginning of sorrows that Jesus talked about in Mathew 24. I agree that WW I & WW 2 could fulfill the nation against nation prophecy in Matt 24 but I would include WW 3.
So this war against radical Islam could be in scripture in the more genetic end time passages.
I agree that Pslam 83 is likely to be the next major war for Israel and it will be that war that allows Israel the peace described in Ezekiel 38. I recommend that people read your book for further information. The book is “Isralestine” it can be found at http://www.prophecydepot.com. Also read Bill’s blog it contains some good information and discussion.
Don,
The idea of the west against radical Islam would preclude the ecumenical direction in which the Roman church is trying to lead the world. Since radical Islam will not compromise with Hindus, Buddhists, Liberal “Christians”, New Agers, etc. in melding into a one world religion, they must dissapear before that can happen. Dave Hunt makes a great case for Roman hegemony over the religions of the world in “A Woman Rides the Beast.” The diminishing of Islam to an insignificant role by two major defeats – Pslam 83 and Ezekiel 38 seems to me to set the stage for the last push to one world government and religion. And the 10 nations may not be 10 European nations, but 10 geographical divisions (EU, North American Union, Asian Union, etc.) led by the Illuminati banks headquartered in Europe.
The stage has been set for a European AntiChrist through the publishing of books like “The DaVinci Code” which provides a way for members of the Royal Houses of Europe to establish descent from David through Jesus and Mary Magdalene through the Merovingian kings to today’s royals. Thus someone like Charles or William could prove to be the one the decived are waiting for. Barak Obama does not fit the bill, although he may be a real type of the Antichrist. I believe that A powerful Jewish nation – raised up by great victories over their enemies and enriched by the spoils of war and the discovery of massive amounts of oil and natural gas off the coast of Israel, in the western lands once belonging to Joseph and Asher and at the south end of the Dead Sea will only cooperate with a European who could prove that they could be the King and thus the Messiah of Israel.
Don – I believe that the first 5 seals of Rev. 6 occur prior to the 70th week of Daniel. This is evidenced in Rev. 6:9-11, whereby the martyred believers ask “How long” until their spilt blood is avenged. They were martyred for the word of God, suggesting that they are familiar with the 70th week of Daniel timetable, which is clearly specified in the word of God. Thus their query of “How long” tips us off that they die sometime prior to the commencement point of the 7 yr. trib. period otherwise they would know how long. I believe the sixth seal begins the outpouring of the wrath.
Re: the Antichrist, Daniel 9:26 tells us that he will be of European based Roman descent, but does not tell us that the ten kings will be. I believe that references to the ten kings in scripture leave open the option suggested by Patrick Craig that ten geographical locations may exist at the time that the ten kings come into their Rev. 17:12-13 hour of power with the beast.
If so then I envision the Antichrist peace-pact with Israel having nothing to do with the present Arab – Israeli conflict, but something to do with the the reapportionment of the world into the rulership of the ten kingdoms. Israel will by then have become greater territorially and militarily in the aftermath of Ps. 83. Additionally they will be recognized in a more spiritually empowered light due to the divine deliverance in Ez. 39:1-7. The third temple will be reinstated at some point in the aftermath of either Ps. 83 and / or Ez. 38 – 39 further evidencing Israel’s condition of spiritual empowerment.
Israel will have become empowered and enlarged in the aftermath of the Ps. 83 and Ez. 38-39 prophecies. Islam and terrorism should be greatly diminished as a result as well. I don’t see other nations involved in the defeat of the Ps. 83 and Ez. 38 confederacies, and thus conclude that Islam will likely not be the catalyst of a 3rd world war. There may be another world war, but I doubt that it will Islamically centered.
Patrick, I read A woman Rises the Beast it is an excellent book. I do not see that a war with Islam would preclude the ecumenical direction of the Roman church, in fact I see just the opposite. I will explain that in my next paragraph. What i am saying is that the war will be against Muslim radical states and radical elements within Islam. I think a war between the West and the radical Islamic nations and their henchmen causing terrorism throughout the world is inevitable. It is only going to take one or two attacks with weapons of mass destruction for the West to figure that out. Then there has to be a war against Iran and Pakistan and all the Arab nations around Israel will of course join in except perhaps Iraq and a few rich oil states. Even apart from terrorism the war can be started just by an attack on Iran, or Pakistan falling to the Taliban or even another Palestinian war against Israel.
The effort to defeat radical Islam will have a huge ally in the Roman Catholic Church because I believe during this war Marian apparitions will appear with a strong message for the world. The message of this “Queen of heaven” apparition will be heard and believed by the whole world. It will be a message of a choice between destruction of the human race or or tolerance, pluralism, universalism and peace. The messages from this “Queen of Heaven” demon will convince all religion to modify their doctrines and to be subservient to the Roman church. When the Muslims leadership accept the message of pluralism and universalism along with the Roman church being the final religious authority on earth it will bring the end of the world war. However, it will also bring future persecution to all who cannot except the new religious pluralism and universalism of the Harlot. Those who continue to hold to fundamental doctrines will be seen as a threat to world peace. Thus, the Harlot will persecute true believers before she gets a taste of her own medicine from a counter revolution from New Age Luciferians following the Antichrist.
So I agree that Islam will diminish and it will either convert to and join a more inclusive form of Catholicism or more likely all major religions will become so politically correct and ecumenical that there will not be much difference between them. All paths will lead to God as far as the Harlot is concerned as long as she has final authority in religious matters on the earth.
I agree that the ten kings could be from 10 geographical divisions. Actually it seems likely. I also agree that the Antichrist will lead from Rome until the mid tribulation point but I also would say just because he leads from Europe does not necessarly mean that he does not have Assyrian blood lines. Remember the blood of these people are mingled and if this regional power is within the boundaries of the old Roman Empire a leader could arise in this revised Roman Empire from many Middle East nations as well as from Western Europe. After all Jesus was offered the position and He is a Jew. The EU today has a leader from a different nation every six months.
It is very likely that Israel after this war will become very prosperous and not only because of her own resources. I think once peace is established most oil in the Middle East will be pumped through Israel and much of the worlds trade will also flow through Israel.
Bill,
I agree with you in that the antichrist peace pact that opens the tribulation period will not be about the Arab-Israeli conflict, since that will have been mitigated by Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38. It will be an attempt by the antichrist to neutralize Israel (as you suggest in Israelstine) rather than protect her.
Bill – Wow, if you believe the first 5 seals occur prior to the 70th week of Daniel you are only one of two persons I know that see it that way. You and me.
I guess there could be a few others that also think the 70th week starts at the 6th seal but I cannot recall any. You just made a good argument for the 70th week occurring after the fifth seal that I have missed.
Since we already see regional governments being set up I think the ten leaders being heads of regional areas of the world is logical. The Club of Rome broke up the world into ten regions decades ago and they are following the pattern.
You could be right about that the covenant has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. All we really know is that when the Prince confirms the covenant it starts the 70th year of Daniel. Besides, the Arab nations are probably defeated at this point and there is no reason for a peace covenant with them. Maybe the covenant is not a peace treaty like most are teaching anyway? It might not be a peace treaty at all, it might just be a covenant involving the Jewish temple and continuing activities on the Mount.
I really do not know how Israel can expand into the areas you suggest without a world war. Even if Israel attacked Iran today the U.S. would be dragged into the war because Iran would take military action against the U.S. and close shipping lanes and we would have to respond military. I also cannot see Iran staying out of a Psalm 83 war unless the U.S. already dealt with Iran making it possible for Israel to fight the Psalm 83 war without the worry of Iran. Of course if we attacked Iran we most certainly would get into a world war with radical Isam although it might not be called that at first. I guess one could argue that we are already in a world war with radical Islam but at some point when the war keep expanding and quacking you have to call a duck a duck. Your suggestion that Israel alone will diminish 1.5 billion Muslims is just not very logical to me. It is true that God will intervene in the Ezekiel war and the world will know it. But, how can you get a greatly expanded Israel due to the war of Psalm 83 without a world war? I just cannot see 1.5 billion Muslims allowing a greatly expanded Israel to happen without joining the fight unless the militants were already in a fight. I guess we will not have long to find out if Islam will be a catalyst for a 3rd world war or not. I think the third world war will take place within a few years and you think the same for the war of Psalm 83.
By the way Bill, any idea why when you or I post something I always get a mailbox full rejection notice? Perhaps you need to put in a different email address for comment follow-up notification?
Don I put in a new email address. There are others who put the seals outside of the Tribulation, we are not our own Islands on this subject.
Also I don’t believe Israel will destroy 1.5 Billion muslims. I believe they will destroy many Arab Muslims as per Psalm 83, and perhaps some Persian Muslims if they strike and / or invade Iran’s nuclear facilitites likely prior to Ps. 83. God destroys a multitude of more Muslims in Ez. 39:1-6. Other worldwide Muslims left will likely see the futility of the Islamic religion in the aftermath of all the above.
The “notion” (Obama’s favorite word) that Muslims will become more peaceable I think goes against the grain of their religion. I think Patrick may be onto something when he says Islam will not be compatable with the Harlot of Rev. 17. Zephaniah 2:11 seems to allude to the Xenocide of Allah and all other god imposters if you study it carefully. I have an appendix in Isralestine about it “The Xenocide of the Gods”.
Thanks for bringing up your points, it helps me to know how some interpret my suggestions within Isralestine. For instance the Jews will not claim all the promised land after Ps. 83, but only some of it. Also that the Jews will not kill all the Muslims, only some of them
Blessings
Bill
Bill, I know there are others who put the seals outside of the Tribulation. But I have not run into any who believe in classical dispensationalism that do not believe the seals are in the final seven years. That would include most of the well known Bible prophecy teachers. Perhaps some Jewish Christian teachers and progressive dispensationalists are not bound by that time limitation.
Bill – I never said you thought Israel would destroy 1.5 Billion Muslims. I said diminish 1.5 billion Muslims because you said in your last post that Islam would be greatly diminished. I agree with that. I as much as said the same thing when I said they will be joining the Harlot after the world war.
My real point was that the reason that Israel will succeed in the Psalm 83 war against the Arabs is because all the other radical Muslim states will be tied up in their own world war with the West. They will not be able to come to the aid of the Arabs. Otherwise Iran and other Muslim nations are not going to be sitting around watching Israel defeat all the Arab states mentioned in Psalm 83 and if they did help them they would also be mentioned in Psalm 83. I think Iran does not get involved because they are either already crippled by U.S. air strikes or they are tied up in a larger world war with the West. Israel alone would not be able to cripple Iran enough to keep Iran and other Muslim states from taking part in the Psalm 83 war. Since you believe the Psalm 83 war is imminent and know Iran is supplying tens of thousand of rockets etc to the Arab enemies of Israel to destroy her. Can you give me any other plausible reason why Iran does not take part in the Psalm 83 war? There could be one, but I am not seeing it.
I disagree that all Muslims want war. Even you say they will be greatly diminished what do you mean by that? Just military? No, I think they will be diminished also through other religious deceptions like Marian apparitions. Many Muslims hold Mary in higher regard then they do Jesus. Anyway, you probably are familiar with writings on Catholicism and the woman on the Beast and how she becomes the leader of the ecumenical Harlot. If not, read some of Roger Oakland’s and Dave Hunt’s take on end time Marian deception. I never said Muslims would give up Islam or Allah. To them Allah just means God. They will have a liberalization of the way they interpret their scripture as did some of Christianity. In fact, the liberalization has already happened among many Muslims and that is why radicals attack them. My point is that after the great religious wars for the sake of world peace only pluralist politically correct religion will be allowed in the world and the Roman harlot will be the enforcer just as she was in the days of the inquisitions.
I totally agree with Bill, I am currently reading his book and I believe he’s on target….and many folks don’t know that Damascus is the Headquarters of the Hamas terrorist unit and Hezbollah including many other terrorist units. This would give us a good understanding why Damascus will be eliminated.
I’ve read all of the comments blogged above and found them to be a very intestesting exchange of ideas, the eschatolgocial sum of which I find myself in agreement with.
However, when considering the possibility of the “M.U.” as the core territorial and military power basis for the coming Antichrist, I would like to present four caveat thoughts which are based in real-world realities and prophetic fulfillments that immediately occured to me:
1. There is no such thing as a “Mediterranean Union”. There is a European Union-subservient organization known as the “Union for the Mediterranean” (Union pour la Méditerranée) or “UM.”
2. Nicholas Sarkozy’s idealized “UM” had no financial back bone, nor did it have any military organization or cohesion, and there existed no political or legal basis for either. Sarkozy’s ideal was, in sum, a trial balloon made of lead as it never got off the ground due to EU oppostion.
3. The entire premise for this Mediterranean grouping was defunct as of 14 months ago (March 2008) and had been rolled up in its entirety within the EU-sponsored “Euro-Mediterranean Partnership” (a/k/a the “Barcelona Process”) by mid July 2008.
4. By the time the antichrist comes on the scene the entire paradigm of the eastern Mediterranean region while havebeen radically and permanently altered: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi and Egypt will have been military destroyed and partially absorbed territorially by Israel in the final Psalm 83 war; Turkey and Libya will have be destroyed in the War of Gog/Magog. What would be left of the muslim “UM” nations amounts to nothing politically, economically andespecially militarily: Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria and Mauritania.
As far as the seals being outside the 70th week – in my opinion they would still have to occur before the rapture. The seal judgements, as are all of the judgments of Revelation, are directed at the enemies of God – an apostate Israel who will only come to repentance during the final battle for Jerusalem and the Gentile nations who hate God and hate Israel. The only time that there are only enemies of God left on earth is immediately after the rapture, since there are some gentiles who will be saved during the tribulation and of course the Jewish Remnant who will receive Jesus as Messiah. I know that the True church will not go through any part of the tribulation because that is a time of judgement, and according to the Bible – Galatians 2:20 to be exact – all true believers have already been condemned, punished and sealed for eternity.
“I am crucified with Christ…..” I already took the punishment I derserved in Him, thank you Jesus!!!!
Patrick – The rapture may occur before the seals as you believe but you assume that all that all that are not in the Church are enemies of God. Does that include everyone who died in all history before the New Covenant Church? You also are not quite getting our point. We think the first five seals are not in the time of the 70th week for the Jews. I think some that ultimately can be identified with the Bride go through some tribulation on earth. In the very wording of the fifth seal we see that these martyrs are identified with all previous saints who were martyred before them. The Church of Christ has always been in tribulation. The fifth seal is the apex of it but that does not mean it occurs in the final seven years for the Jews. I do not think the Bride is complete at the fifth seal, rapture or no rapture. Yet, don’t get me wrong, I do think there is a blessed hope for those found faithfully watching and waiting but Jesus identified with seven church types in Revelation. Nevertheless, only Philadelphia was actually promised to be kept out of the great trial on earth? I think we totally buy into theology of popular teachers that really turns out to be subjective interpretations of eschatology.
Hi Sean,
Actually the proposed union by Nicholas Sarkozy of France was called the Mediterranean Union in some press releases that I read.
http://www.undispatch.com/archives/2008/07/the_mediterrane.php
I do not know if the M.U. acronym was used by those that proposed it or if that was my own creation. That really does not really matter because the acronym does not change the proposal or the proposed boundaries.
I do agree that this proposal met with resistance by the EU and has not got off the ground but that does not mean that what Sarkozy proposed will not get new life if the EU boundaries of today fall apart during a time of world war and civil upheaval in Europe. I really am not suggesting that this alliance of nations on the boundaries of the Old Roman Empire will be formed before the next world war.
Like I said, nobody thinks the EU will retain its present boundaries anyway? I think if we are going to have a revived Roman Empire it probably should look like one. The EU today goes way beyond the boundaries of ancient Rome but it does not include the Mediterranean States of ancient Rome. Sarkozy’s proposal does, and it eliminates the part of East Europe that was never in the Roman Empire. His proposed boundaries even eliminates Ireland who up to this point has blocked he Lisbon treaty.
Point four of yours, is assuming you are right in the sequence of these wars and that both wars take place before the 70th week of Daniel. Although I tend to agree with that time sequence for these wars I cannot be dogmatic about it. Supposing it is correct, it still does not rule out a Mediterranean Union or a modified EU that fits the proposed Nicholas Sarkozy boundaries. I am not suggesting that the Muslims nations you mentioned have anything to do with anything other than being absorbed by a much larger revised Roman Empire. I think most will identify with the rising world religious Harlot after the wars you mention. So they being Muslim today is really not in my revived Roman Empire equation. Like Bill Salus said, “Islam will be greatly diminished” The Antichrist will come out of the revived Roman Empire.
I would just like to bring to your attention that there is a Union for the Mediterranean which is part of the so-called Barcelona process. The MU apparently does exist in some form but it appears to have little actual power or relevance. It should also be noted that the Mediterranean states feel very much connected to each other. This is something I did not understand myself but apparently the French feel very connected to other nations that border the Mediterranean Sea, even those that technically do not belong to Europe.
The more I look at the direction we’re going, the more I think that a MU type of organization is what we will be aiming at in the future. I think that mainly because of Russia’s behavior. I don’t know if any of you’ve been paying close attention to Russia’s leadership but they are clearly antagonizing NATO, the EU and its former Soviet subjects. They will not tolerate that former Soviet states turn against Moscow, Eastern Europe’s former Soviet Big Brother.
With Euroskepticism running high in countries like the Netherlands, the UK and Poland, I don’t see how the European Union can continue to function in the way it does today, unless they take away even more rightful sovereignty from the peoples of Europe and somehow manage to set up a functional military. I don’t think that the majority of Europeans will continue to put up with this nonsense from elitist politicians that betray their own people in the pursuit of their political wet dreams. Also, many people do not want Turkey in the EU, and they are absolutely right. Sarkozy rightfully objects to Turkey in the EU so what he suggests is for Turkey to join the MU as an alternative way of maintaining close relations.
As NATO has shown, military structures don’t seem to go away that easily. The question is whether they will ever be able to set up an European military. I think not. France has now formally become a full NATO member again. So apparently it looks like the whole idea of a European military is losing ground. The European nations alone would never go to war with Russia anyway. And no matter how much European (safe for a few pro-American reactionaries like myself) like to display their contempt of the United States, they still apparently want to make sure they have Uncle Sam on their side to protect us wimps in case of military problems.
Now with the US having its own domestic and external problems in the Middle East, Afghanistan, NATO failing in Afghanistan (they actually are asking for Russian assistance), and the worrisome situation in Pakistan, I think that they will eventually have to realize that their EU is not ever going to be a fully independent and viable counterweight to Russia, China and the United States, especially. The Baltic states, the Ukraine and the Caucasian states will be devoured by Russia if they continue to ignore Moscow, insist on joining NATO and don’t give up their aspirations of eventually becoming EU members.
Historically, these states have been part of Imperial Russia for centuries, and they have major Russian minorities which are favorable to the Russia. Let’s not also forget that Russia is a federation of states! I see many of the former Soviet states ending up as states belonging to an expanded Russian Federation, and a smaller EU emerging that which will then look to North Africa (French former colonies) for its natural resources.
So a MU-like organization may be an outcome of such a situation. I remember Louis Michel, former Belgian minister of foreign affairs and high-ranking EU diplomat, suggesting that North African states join the EU several years ago. So there’s really nothing new here. This is Eurabia already anyway. There’s little doubt in my mind that this is how Europe will look like in a few decades or perhaps much sooner if the European-Russian relations further deteriorate. I only wonder what Turkey will decide to do. I strongly doubt they’re ever going to end up in the EU. Most likely they will want to remain on good terms with Russia instead, or perhaps function as a buffer state and trade hub between the MU and the Russian Federation.
Anyway, just my 2 cents… I won’t get into the prophetic side of these matters. I’ll leave that up to you experts.
Nasrani, I think what you said makes a lot of sense. As for the military or lack of it in Europe lets suppose that there are WMD attacks in cities in Europe. I then see a civil backlash from the natives against the Muslims immigrants that are not assimilating all over Western Europe. It may be not unlike what happened to the Jews about 70 years prior. Can you even imagine a civil war like that against Muslims? Yet, I feel it is going to happen and tyranny will once again take control in Western Europe coming out of the native backlash. The Middle East war could bring the WMD attacks on Europe or they may come first and help bring this world war. The end results are the same. It will become a much larger world war on radical terrorism and all the states that sponsor them. I think the militarization of Western Europe will come about as a necessity to defeat radical Islam all the way to India. Moderate Arab states will have to choose to join with Europe in the fight or join with the radicals. I think Turkey will eventually side with Europe. In the aftermath of the world war then what you have left in the Middle East is secular Muslim states where government, not Islam, has the power. Nor will Jihad through violence even be allowed to be taught anymore.
Meanwhile, Russia seeing that NATO has its hands full, moves to retake much of the same areas of the old Soviet Union. By the time of the end of the world war Russia will be in a very strong position and Western Europe will not want to challenge her much like it was in the aftermath of world war II. You might wonder about where America is in this picture? She might even help trigger this war and certainly at first will play a major role, but sooner or later she is going to be a bit player probably because of her own problems at home. A EMP or a financial collapse and/or a civil war could explain why America loses her superpower status.
The end of the war will leave Europe to administer the lands it conquered much like America did after the second world war and Israel will be a major player in this administration because Israel conquered much of the Middle-East in their battle against the nations mentioned in Psalm 83. After the war Western Europe moves to establish a new union on the lines of its war allies and the conquered land. The lands conquered may be incorporated into the states of the victors and that could allow the expansion of Israel. Remember that Europe established most of the boundaries of Middle East nations after World War I and it can make new boundaries after World War III, perhaps this time it will be more based on tribal groups in order to end the Middle East squabbles. Then there could be a time of peace in the Middle East. This new Union on the boundaries of the Old Roman Empire will also be necessary to counter the expansion of the new expanded Russian Union who might have joined with the West in this world war to defeat radical Islam but also moved its military and influence as far south as Iran. We know at some time in the future Russia and its great new confederation of nations will come down in the war of Ezekiel 38. Then perhaps after the destruction of Russia and her confederacy the only superpower left other than the South East Asian powers is the Revised Roman Empire.
All speculation, I know, but that’s my best guess. I said the alignment of nations after World War II in the Cold War better fit Bible eschatology than the alignment of nation in the EU and around Russia today. Perhaps World War III will once again bring an alignment of nations that better fits future eschatology.
Hi Don,
First, a my best wishes to all in observance of this Memorial Day.
Don, you could not have selected a better UN aparatchik than Kenneth Bledsoe and the blog OpEd he wrote cited above. All anyone needs to know of this guy and his world glaobal governance views is their in plain sight, particularly another item in that same webapge where he takes a crack at Claudia Rosset (one of my favorite writers).
UM or MU, it’s really make not too much difference seing that the EU swallowed up that organization and not vice versa. IAnd noted earlier it is now an active element of the “Barcelona Process” which is something Kenneth Bledsoe was kind enough to date exactly with his citing the the New York Slimes report (July 14, 2008) and confim my caveat item number 3. The problem the NYT article is that is placed those 43 nation and 800 million people in the MU, when in all reality that’s a tally which belongs to the EU.
The real military power of the coming beast empire will consist of NATO forces as well as what ever residual combat power the US has invested in Eurpoe and the CENTCOM AO – land air, sea and strategic.
Hi Sean, I also hope everyone will remember and honor those who paid the ultimate sacrifice for our nation on this Memorial Day.
Actually Sean, I just picked that link at random from a Google search since it uses the term “Mediterranean Union”. I know I also heard others use that term. If the proposed Union was called “Mediterranean Union” or “Union for the Mediterranean” really makes little difference to me. I think Mediterranean Union sounds better so if they did not call it that they probably should have. Maybe the stupid name is the reason why the proposal met resistance
I believe I read the NYT article. But I think the point of using that 800 million figure was that the UM or MU proposal by Sarkozy would include most of the EU nations. I do not know what Sarkozy was thinking but anyone should see that the present EU is not going to hold together so maybe Sarkozy was just a bit ahead of his time. Wait until the East European nations realize they joined something as bad for them as the old USSR and that the EU will throw a nation or two to the Russian dogs before it will fight. But like I said, I really do not see this realignment to the same borders of the Old Roman Empire until after the next world war.
I agree that the coming revived Roman Empire Beast will get its power from NATO and the US is still the backbone of NATO. Those who say Europe does not have a military seem to forget or discount NATO. NATO was quite a power, it kept the Soviet Union in check during the Cold War era. I was even attached to NATO in Norway for two years. Even today it is very much a mighty power and it would still be quite formidable if it had agreement on a common enemy. Right now Europe does not want to get involved in the Middle East but after an attack on Europe with WMD they will change their view and I think we will see a real NATO war effort against radical Islam.
Patrick – Regarding the Seal judgments occuring prior to the Rapture: The Seal judgments begin in Rev. 6 suggesting that they follow sequentially both, Rev. 2 & 3 (the church on earth), Rev. 4 & 5 (the church raptured in heaven). Thus the Church is likely no longer on the earth by the time the Seals are opened.
Don and / or Sean – Briefly list the hypotheical M.U. end time participants and point out any scriptural support that either the Antichrist and / or the 10 kings comes out from a supposed end times M.U. Is the M.U. hypothesis suppose to be a convergence of the East / West split of the Roman Empire?
Good day Bill,
I think I already said that I tend to think that the ten kings are leaders of 10 world regional governments. I do not rule out that they might come out of the area of the Old Roman Empire but that is hard to picture right now. However, things do change in time of war. If they do it would be hard to define the nations since today we do not see only 10 nations in the EU or the hypothetical MU. The closest anyone can come to picking ten nations is to fall back to the ten Charter members of the EU. Life was so much more simpler for Bible prophecy teachers when the Common Market had less then ten members.
The scriptural support for the Antichrist coming out of this Roman Empire is the same as yours. The prince that will sign the covenant comes from a revived Roman Empire. The people that destroy the Temple. All I am really saying is that the revived Roman Empire will not be limited to the membership of the EU today. It will probably include the name nations that it did in Jesus’ day and some Eastern nations now in the EU will leave and go with Russia or form their own alliance.
Here is a good history and update on the original MU agreement now called the UM. The nations have changed somewhat from what Sarkozy first proposed in 2006.
http://www.wnponline.org/wnp/wnp0808/mediterranean-union-roman-empire.htm
The map of the nations of what the leaders first proposed seems to have disappeared from the Internet.
Rapture Ready had a link comparing the Sarkozy proposal and the old Roman Empire but now the MU part of the link is dead.
Here is the present proposed boundaries of the Union for the Mediterranean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Union_for_the_Mediterranean_(lambert_azimuthal_projection).svg
Here is some more background information on the Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Union
Here is a map of the different phases of the Roman Empire.
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/roman_empire.html
The Roman Empire boundaries changed over time and I did not think the MU or EU boundaries will be exactly known until after the world war. I do think it will include nations that were both in the East and West after the Roman Empire split. I would like to think that the revived Roman Empire of Daniel will be about the same as the Roman Empire when Jesus got cut off.
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/roman_empire.html
Don thanks for the clarification. I reviewed the links. I believe that in the aftermath of Ps. 83 and Ez. 38, the geopolitical world situation will be dramatically different than it is today. At least twenty major population will be severely altered by the time the Antichrist rises to power. These populations include at least Israel, the ten members of the Ps. 83 Arab confederacy, and the nine members of mish mash ethnicities in Ez. 38.
Presently the wikipedia Union of the Med. lists several of these populations. I understand that you are not speculating which nations will be in the final M.U. equation. Perhaps the expanse of the revived Roman Empire may be inclusive of some of the M.U. countries, however then that leaves the origin of the Antichrist up to a fair degree of speculation.
I still tend to gravitate toward the developing E.U. scenariio because it, above all the others, most comfortably fits within the Daniel 9:26 framework. Some of the Eastern leg of the former Roman empire may be part of the revived empire, however the Assyrian Beast from East scenario troubles me because I don’t believe Assyria (Syria & Northern Iraq formerly), will be much left in tact after the two above wars.
P.s. how do I get my photo instead of the weird shark one pasted into my blogs?
Hi Don and Hi Bill,
Speaking of Sarkozy – keep an eye on him. In his lineage he is Jewish and Greek. When it comes to the Antichrist I believe genealogical links are important; it may very well be all about a historical birthright.
I’m going to segue here over to Bill’s question: “Briefly list the hypothetical M.U. end time participants and point out any scriptural support that either the Antichrist and / or the 10 kings comes out from a supposed end times M.U. Is the M.U. hypothesis supposed to be a convergence of the East / West split of the Roman Empire?”
Bill, I would at this point cite only the four (4) most obvious participants because they’ve been specifically identified through prophetic Scripture: Rome (Italy), Greece, Persia (Iran) and Babylon (Iraq). I count these four among the ‘ten toes’ Daniel received the interpretation of from within Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdoms dream. I would offer that the other six (6) remain obscured because that portion of Daniel’s vision remains sealed up.
I would offer that there appears to be an exceptionally salient reason why the Lord imparted upon the prophet Daniel such detail in minutia about the Macedonian-Greek Empire of Alexander the Great and its aftermath, and the reference to Greece in general as you shall see next. The full extent of that reason is currently unknown in full, we only see the obvious portion, but it exists nevertheless. I believe it is a prophetic template of what the future holds, particularly Daniel 11, verses 21 through 45.
In a nutshell and through a time dilated view of history, we have Alexander the Great to begin with. His four chief generals (the Diadochi) receive their kingdoms through the Partition of Triparadisus of 320 BC.
Here I will focus where I believe Daniel has divinely focused our attention for us. Seleucus, Alexander’s “chief-of-staff” from among the four generals, took the name Seleucus I Nicator. The direct heirs to his kingdom (Seleucid Empire) number seven (7) Greek-speaking Macedonian elite until the Roman Empire’s primacy is established in this region. Those heirs were Antiochus I Soter, Antiochus II Theos, Seleucus II Callinicus, Seleucus III Ceranus, Antiochus III the Great, Seleucus IV Philopater and, finally Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
This is where Daniel 11:21 ends and the future Antichrist begins, which is to say, the future Antichrist picks up where his direct prophetic forebear – and possibly direct genetic ancestor – left off.
In 168 BC during Antiochus IV Epiphanes reign he personally bowed his submission before Rome outside of Alexandria, Egypt. He was enraged and returned northward to Jerusalem. He slaughtered thousands of Jews, and stood up in the Temple a statue of Zeus-Olympus which is the first, direct example, a prophetic template, of the coming (second) abomination of desolation – a repeat which will occur in almost near-identical fashion. Antiochus IV Epiphanes is said to have died of some disease near Susa in the ancient province of Elam (modern western Iran).
I’m going to jump to Revelation 13:1 where John, on the Greek island of Patmos, took directly from the Father to the Son to John a prophecy about this “Beast”. Please follow me here with your own Bible open to this chapter and verse. Revelation 13:1 is actually a continuation of the text of Revelation 12, verses 17 and 18. Notice where Satan is standing as we move into chapter 13!
And the key words therein:
sand of the sea -(innumerable population from the West/Mediterranean)
I saw a beast -(Gk: therion – a bestial man)
rise up out of -(the same sand and the sea where Satan is left standing!)
having 7 heads -(7th in a line of Seleucid leaders)
and 10 horns -(the 7 plus the 3 previous and conquered but in reverse order Greece, Persia, Babylon)
and upon his [seven] heads the name of Blasphemy.
What was the ‘name of the blasphemy’ that Antiochus IV Epiphanes stood up in the Temple? That name was ZEUS OLYMPUS!
Revelation 13:2 confirms this and the reverse order of the ancient kingdoms AND that this coming Antichrist will pick up where is direct forebear left off. There are three more key words in Revelation 13:2 which reveal this man will be directly powered by Satan. His strength and ability to both exist and to perform his given abilities will be by virtue of his being – Satan. His seat is his throne, his kingship as it was his forebear, and his authority (GK: exousia) is the power to do by will; a physical and mental power of authority over the rest of mankind.
So, how central of a role does Greece/Macedonia play? I would say, other than Israel, Greece/Macedonia has a pivotal role to play.
Sean & Bill good information. Sorry I took so long to post your comments. I was not available yesterday.
Sean – that was some very interesting information and observations. I really need to do further study on all that you said
Bill – let me first say to change your picture you have to create your own gavatar. The easiest way to do that I know of is to sign up with the following site and then upload a picture of yourself as your avatar. http://en.gravatar.com/
It should then follow you on all sites that allow avatars. If you do not have a gavatar my software assigns one of these silly faces by default. The only way you can change it is to change your email address but it has to be valid if you want to be notified of follow-up comments. I think I will change the default to that of a pattern, rather than these silly faces. Many do not like being identified with these pictures.
I agree that maps of many nations will be redrawn before the Antichrist. I do not suggest that the Antichrist is from the Eastern leg of the Roman Empire. I just leave open the possibility that someone with Assyrian blood could be the Antichrist just as someone with Greek, Spanish, Italian, Jewish etc. blood could be the Antichrist. Whatever the Antichrist ethnicity he will still rule the revived Roman Empire which I believe will be headquartered in Western Europe and probably in Rome.
Those who are looking for a Assyrian Beast from the East generally believe that Islam is the Beast. I totally disagree with the whole Muslim Antichrist concept. If anyone reading still wants to know why, I have at least four posts on that topic. Just type in “Muslim Antichrist” in the search box and you will find them (but you do have to go to the blog homepage to do the search).
Sean – that is a fascinating interpretation. Is it unique? Like Don – I’ll have to spend some research time on it.
Don & Bill,
Brothers, the interpretation above is just one portion of a an interpretation that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I’ve been pursuing for some time now, and continue working on incessantly. It is truly a work in progress.
I have always believed, at least since I was baptized in the Spirit in the early 70s, that the Book of Daniel held and still does hold many of the keys to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Daniel’s prophecies were cited verbatim by our Lord during His ministry in the Holy Land, and in effect He was quoting Daniel via the Father’s, His own and the Spirit’s onmiscience and omnipresence. As we all know only Scripture interprets Scripture precisely unless it’s a direct revelation from the Godhead.
I’ve used some of this body of eschatological research previously, albeit sparingly, in refuting some of the key proponents of an “Islamic” antichrist. None of the Scriptural points backed by historical facts that I raised have been refuted thus far by those proponents. They have in the past couple of months gone silent and have avoided further contact with yours truly.
However, and most importantly right here and now, what I wrote above is the product of some very recent study in which the Spirit caused me to specifically focus on Daniel 11 and Revelation 12/13. To the best of my knowledge what I wrote above has not been written about before. I was quite literally beside myself and praising the Lord when the direct prophetic connection of these two became apparent. And there is yet more to come.
Sean – We will look forward to your work. What you are saying about the importance of the detail in Daniel only makes sense. If everything were straight forward Daniel would not be a sealed book until the time of the end. We need some fresh in-depth well thought through thinking on some issues and then others need to determine through the Bible if those things could be so. For example, the popular interpretations about “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven,” (Rev 17:11) have not been fully explained to my full satisfaction.
I still need to sit down and actually consider what you said yesterday. I printed it out so that hopefully I will get a chance to sit down and sift through what you said.
Don,
Yes, indeed, Rev. 17:9-11 were the particular verses which caused me to begin counting “heads.” This was the only thing in history which makes any sense as the succession and sequence of leaders once General Seleucus inherited virtually all of the Babylonian, Persian and eastern Greek/Macedonian realms, all of which included most of the former Assyrian Empire. Then with Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the precursor or template Antichrist) we have capitulation to the Fourth Beast empire which was Imperial Rome.
I have found that by studying the historical person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes the personality traits ascribed by Daniel were all there in vivid detail. There is no question that he was the beast, is not and will be the 8th. There is a direct tie-in to Babylon, Rome and the precursor antichrist.
Sean – I studied closely what you said from Daniel and Revelation and just about everything you said is my understanding of these passages as well.
The only questionable interpretation is who you think make up the ten kings or horns.
I observed in your statement that you think the Antichrist will take over from where Antiochus IV Epiphanes left off. That makes sense to me but what are you saying? Are you saying that you believe the Antichrist will come out of Greece? I can see that happening.
A Muslim vs West Europe Conflict is what I think brings this Antichrist figure into power. A Greek connection makes the passage that says this man will come into power with a small amount of people make sense. Perhaps it could all start over a Greek backlash to a attack from Muslims on Greeks in Cyprus. On the other hand, it could be more like what I have been suggesting all along where Western Europe will get involved in a war against Radical Islam. Then I also can see violence on Cyprus between the Muslims and Greeks with the same end result. That end result being Turkey, Egypt and other Muslim nations waring against the European NATO alliance. Then all the power of NATO would become the army of the Antichrist.
Sean – I know he is a type, but are you saying that your believe Antiochus IV Epiphanes will rise from the dead?
Don,
I’m looking simultaneously at Revelation 9, 11:6, 13 and 17, and at all of Daniel’s descriptions of the man who will be antichrist. It appears to me that the man, right from the get-go, is possessed by a demon which comes up out of the abyss, from the bottomless pit, also knoiwn as sheol. (Rev. 17:8). This is the world of the dead. Antiochus IV Epiphanes is dead. (See Luke 8:26-31).
I asked a question at this point in my study: Where is it stated in Scripture that prior to or during the Tribulation has Satan himself been cast into the abyss? Where does Scripture say that he has existed for the past 2000 years since he tempted Christ? So how can the Beast, if he is satan incarnate come up out of the abyss? Satan is not bound and thown into the abyss by one of God;s angels until Revelation 20
It appears to me that antichrist will be possessed by another demon spirit from the abyss, from sheol, and then at mid-Tribulation his body dies a mortal death and he is re-animated – resurrected – and indwelt by Satan himself for the final 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
He once was, is not, and yet will come again. Revelation 17:11 “The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.” I think this verse speaks to a beast, who was a human king and becomes a human king again, and then goes to final destruction. So, yes, I am thinking Antiochus IV Epiphanes, or the same demon who possessed him back in circa 167 BC, will return yet again.
Sean – The Nero and Judas fans are not going to like your view
Seriously though, what you suggest needs some follow-up comments. I agree with you that Satan is not in the abyss. So I have no problem with a demon possessing the man who will become the Beast/Antichrist prior to the final 3 1/2 years. Antiochus IV Ephiphanes, Nero, Judas, etc. were men and men are appointed once to die so obviously none of these men are going to get a physical body of flesh on earth again. So then we must get into the actual demon or demons that possessed these men and acted out their role. Men do not become demons when they die so obviously we are saying that demons posses men and get them to act out a role. So that makes me wonder who did this demon possess before Antiochus IV Epiphanes? I guess it could have been more than one person, perhaps even going back to Nimrod. Could the same demon also have possessed people forward and have entered into Judas and Nero? That would certainly make many Bible prophecy students happy. Maybe everyone is right
Antiochus IV Epiphanes at the time of the Revelation would qualify on the Revelation 17:11 statement but would he qualify as one of the seven kings? I am not convinced of that. Most think the Kings were the heads of seven world kingdoms and Daniel’s four Kingdom’s would seem to support that with the last being Rome. So how does Antiochus IV Epiphanes fit into that head of world kingdom equation, why not Alexander? I guess you are going to tell me they are wrong and thus hurt my little head and say something like Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the seventh king in the Antiochus family tree?
Also if Satan incarnates this Antichrist for the last 3 1/2 years does the demon go back to the abyss or does he actually go into the False Prophet? It always seemed to me that there was something strange about the False Prophet because he seemed to be more the Antichrist then the Antichrist while the first Beast takes more of a God role. No matter who the demon possessed before he possesses the man of sin, be it Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, Judas etc, it would still seem to me that the False Prophet ends up with the same demon that the Beast/Antichrist out of the sea had.
This tread just goes to show that we are all still learning and do not have eschatology all figured out. The more I learn the more I know why Bible prophecy teachers never agree on points of eschatology.
By the way, I just did a Google search on the term “seven heads of Revelation”. I looked at ten different sites in the top listings at random. Every site had a different interpretation of who the kings were. Not one of them was even close to the interpretation of any other. Yet, they all taught it as biblical truth.
Don,
Yes, there are probably many who will not like the interpretation I’m working on. That’s ok though, I’ll go where the Spirit leads.
It will be some demon who has apparently possessed others as you relate above… and possibly one which has been focused on Israel, even including Hitler, Judas, Nero, et al.
Alexander most certainly was one of those kingdoms, but Alexander largely ignored Israel, they were small fry to him. He was in search of bigger game.
I reconcile Antiochus IV Epiphanes in this way:
Many cite Assyria as one of those 7 kingdoms. Antiochus happened to be the 7th king of the Seleucid Empire which itself was the inheritor of that particular crown or of the three crowns formerly worn by Alexander: Babylon (Seleucus (a/k/a Seleucus I Nicator) founded the Seleucid Empire in Babylon, Persia (Nicator’s Empire went easterd all the way to the Indus River) and except for Ptolemy’s Egyptian, the Seluecid had, for a time, the Greek/Macedonian kingdom added to his kingdoms “portfolio.” Many Jews, and even some modern eschatologists, will refer to these Seleucid kings as “Assyrian.” I think there is a keen distinction between Assyria (Asshur) and Aram (Syria). One of Seleucid capitols, Seleucia, was near the site of ancient Asshur, and also Nimrod. The other was Antioch, in modern day southern Turkey, near the Syrian border.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the final Seleucid king and he personally acceeded to Roman military authority in Alexandria Egypt in 166-167 BC. This is where the “cross the line in the sand” phrase originated. The Roman Senator, Gaius Popillius Laenas, issued Antiochus an ultimatum, and drew a line in a complete circle in the sand around Antiochus feet and told him to decide his course of action before he stepped out of that circle. Antiochus acknowledged Roman authority, thus avoiding war with the Rome, but it enraged him nevertheless and Antiochus took his wrath out on Israel, ultimately standing up the statue of Zeus Olympus in the 2nd Temple – the same Temple the Romans destroyed in 70 AD in literal fulfillment of Daniel 9:26.
In of all this is see a consistent historical and prophetic flow. However, you are also correct, we are still learning many eschatological fine points, and there are more interpretations than we can shake a stick at. My search, as for most all of us, is to seek that which Scripture supports because in the end only that interpretation is 100% correct.
I think the same demon working through many men concept is interesting and probably true.
I guess the seven heads are whoever authors wants them to be. I have now looked at twenty of the top sites under those keywords and have got twenty completely different answers as to there identification, and I am not kidding. I think I will punt and kick this football further down the road. Of course other people are free to discuss this if they want.
Don,
This is a difficult topic to be sure. Punting is probably a good option.
I’ll add one more comment for consideration.
In Rev 17 we are told that the 7 heads are both the seven mountains upon which the woman sits (as of circa 90-95 AD, that was Rome) and also 7 kings: 5 fallen, 1 is, and 1 yet to be (to come) for a short while.
My guess on the 5 fallen empires(kings) that were: Asshur(Assyrian), Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian/Greek and Seleucid (as an inheritor of the previous)
The 6th (that is) was Rome (circa 90-95 AD, and as an inheritor of all previous empires or “kingships”.
The 7th (that is to come) AND is also the 8th is Rome II.
I would interpret this to mean that Rome II exists in two parts. The 7th and the 8th. The 7th is the demon-possessed man known as Antichrist, in the first half ofDaniel’s 70th Week; makes the covenant among many. The 8th is the same man, assassinated but resurrected and indwelt by Satan as the 8th.
I do not know about your choice of empires and kings but I do agree with the rest of what you said. The real difficulty to me in this passage is determining who the King “that once was and that is to come” really is. I hear different takes on that and I am undecided about who fills that role but when I looked at twenty different website articles about these seven heads it is amazing what some “Bible teachers” come up with. Like seven world economic systems, or seven phases of the Roman Catholic Church, or seven Popes, or even seven Presidents in America. Then the allegorical interpretations are a real treat to read. The kings to them represent seven phases of the Christian walk, or seven steps through purgatory (I am making that up… I think). It is enough to make a serious student of Bible prophecy want to force feed them a scroll.
Don,
The only rationale I could come up with to list Asshur(Assyrian) as the first among the 5 fallen is due to the role that empire played in the Lords judgment of the northern Kingdom is Israel. The other four figure prominently in judgements against Judah.
Looks like the EU will revive the Mediterranean Union http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/2009/06/eu-to-revive-mediterranean-union.html
Justin, thanks for the link it looks like Chris agrees with me that the MU will be the real revised Roman Empire and not the present alignment of nations that comprise the EU today. I think I will do a separate post on this article
Reading Iraelestine gave me a new perspective on the order of the end time wars. Some folks are still wanting to make Ezekiel 38-39 the final battle (Armegeddon) but I don’t believe so. Israel is certainly not in a peaceful, secure place after the breaking of the covenant at mid-week and the ensuing persecution of the Jews by AntiChrist. No, Bill’s premise that the deal with the AC is to neutralize Israel rather than defend her from Islam (which has been disemboweled by Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39). Of interest in this whole scenario is the fact that a huge natural gas discovery was made just of the coast of Israel (8 trillion cubic ft.) and two companies at this moment are drilling down to and beyond the permian structures under Joseph and Asher. I believe they will find the Mother of all oil pools (Asher will dip her foot in oil – the hidden treasures of the deep) and this will be the main reason that Russia comes after Israel.
I also saw this report and it immediately reminded me about this discussion. The main point I got from the new report, however, is that the EU president will hold the real power.
I continue to believe that yet to occur prophetic events will dramatically and irrevocably alter the nations we see in the MU today. Beginning with the “inner ring” Arab** nations around Israel (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi and Egypt). They will be toast by the time Psalm 83 is completely fulfilled. Then Libya and Turkey will be destroyed along with iran and the Russian-dominated regions to the north by God in the War of Gog/Magog. The armies of Gog will be burind in what is today western Jordan, but at that time will be Israel proper. These wars are pre-Tribulation/Daniel’s 70th Week wars – so the rise of the Beast Empire will be preceeded by an entirely new Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean geo-political and military power paradigm.
**I’ve also got something in progress regarding a new look at the “Arabs” and the 12 God- blessed “sons of Ishmael.” I am coming to learn that they ARE NOT one and the same as I’ve been taught over these many years. This links directly to the military defeats and outright destruction which is coming upon the “Arabs” in Is.17, Ps. 83 and Ez. 38/39.
I also believe the head of the EU will hold the real power if it is still called the EU. Heck, the name could change and it could even be called the Holy Roman Empire by the end of the wars, especially if Catholic Marian deception is involved in the defeat of Islam.
I pretty much agree with the inner-ring outer-ring theory of Bill Salus but I have to admit I am having some difficulty reconciling a pretrib Ezekiel war with all the words of Ezekiel and Joel unless Ezekiel’s prophecy speaks about two different northern army wars and Joel is talking about the latter. There is still a lot we still do not know about Christian eschatology.
Sean I’m curious to hear more about the 12 sons of Ishmael. I just completed an article coming out next week calle Prophecy Shocker! Saudi Peace Plan found in Bible! Jeremiah 12:6 connected to God’s Roadmap in Rev. 1214-17.
Don regarding Pre-Trib Ezek. 38 & 39 listen in to my prophecy update radio interview at http://www.prophecyupdateradio.blogspot.com with Dr. Ron Rhodes, just posted part 1. He is the author of Northern Storm Rising and we discuss how EZ. 38 should conclude, not commence at least 3.5 years before the Tribulation begins, because the Jews won’t be burning weapons but fleeing for their lives in the second half of the Trib. (That segment may be on part 2 actually?).
Many blesssssssings to you both
Bill
Bill, I really cannot listen to Internet radio because I only have a 28k connection. That should change after I move to the woods next month then I will be forced to get satellite Internet. Anyway, I have been teaching the same thing for many years. I outline it in my Revelation Commentary. I see the Antichrist coming when the world expects some kind of Christ to appear seven years after either the Rapture and/or the intervention in the war of Ezekiel. I also think the burning of the weapons stops exactly seven years after the war because the Jews have to flee to the mountains. Nevertheless, these pre-trib Ezekiel war theories raise other problems and that is why many Bible prophecy experts disagree and it is also why I get my own doubts about the timing of the Ezekiel war.
I have yet to see one Bible prophecy teacher correlate all end time Bible prophecy passages without pretty strong conflicts. At least they seem to be conflicts on the surface. Two major wars from the North at different times would solve many of the issues but it would bring up some other issues.
Blessings, Don
The real difficulty to me in this passage is determining who the King “that once was and that is to come”
I see this Don, as talking about Satan himself.
Revelation 17:11: And the beast that was, (was God’s number one cherubim) and is not, (he lost the job) even he is the eighth, (the 8th king as he indwells the Antichrist leader) and is of the seven, (he worked with the other 7 previous notable kings of the past which were either previous Roman emperors or other great infamous leaders) and goeth into perdition (he is hell bound).
Don,
I believe there is a powerful time-line indicator in the last verse from Ezekiel on the Gog/Magog War. See Ezekiel 39:29. Here is what I have had to say about it in my blog.
“And finally, in verse 29 (”Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.”), we see what I believe is a grammatical past-tense confirmation that the promised saving of all Israel by the Old Testament prophets and by the Apostle Paul (see Romans 11) will have been accomplished no later than the conclusion of the War of Gog/Magog, thereby and according to Dispensationalists such as myself, the Harpazo, the Rapture of the Bride of Christ will have occurred and the Church age will have passed into history, and planet Earth will have arrived on the doorstep of Daniel’s 70th Week of Year, the 7-year Tribulation, which will conclude with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His millennial Kingdom.”
Bill,
I am learning that it is probably very important to note that “the Arabs” do not not nessarily constitute the sum of “the sons of Ishmael” to whom God gave his blessings (Genesis 16 & 17). This is a misconception which has long been taught to Christians the world over and my own recent studies have convinced me of its validity.
The Twelve blessed sons of Ishmael were: (Nabajoth (Nabateans), Kedar, Abdeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar (Hadad), Tema, Jetur, Nephish, and Kedemah) …
These 12 should not be confused with those forefathers of other Middle Eastern tribes which the Lord did not bless:
A.) The 13 sons of Joktan who are the forefathers of the Arabian tribes of Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerh, Jadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba (Yemen), Ophir, Havieah, and Jobab…
B.) The 2 sons of Raamah which begat the Arabian tribes of Sheba, Dedan…
C.) The 2 sons of Mizraim which begat the Philistine tribes of Casluhim and Caphtorim.
D.) The 2 sons of Lot, Moab and Ben-Ami, who begat the Moabites and Ammonites.
E.) The 1 son of Kemuel, Aram, who begat the Arameans (i.e. ancient Syrians)
Sean,
I am confused. If the house of Israel is saved before the conclusion of the war of Ezekiel as you said, then are you saying that Israel is saved before the tribulation??
That is one of the major problems with the pre-trib Ezekiel war view. The passage you quoted would indicate God pours out his Spirit on Israel near the end of the tribulation as would Zec 12:9 and other passages. Of course putting it at near the end of the tribulation brings up other issues.
I do agree that the sons of Ishmael are more than just the Arabs
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Hi Edward,
I think that dog won’t hunt. But that passage could be talking about a demon that possesses both kings.
Don.
I don’t believe that the War of Gog/Magog occurs during Daniel’s 70th Week, but preceeds it.
All of the Arab nations of the “inner ring” will have been militarily defeated after Isaiah 17/Psalm 83.
That conflict is the precipitator for the war of Ezekiel 38/39.
By the time the beast is revelaed at the “covenant among many” Islam is destroyed, many of the Arabs (Ishmael’s blessed descendants) will be worshipping YHWH and realize that Yeshua is the Messiah, Russia, Iran, Turkey and the “outer ring” of muslim nations will have been destroyed.
Only the newly enlarged and massively powerful Israel, the empire of the antichrist and the kings of the east are the major world powers spoken of as extant in Daniel’s 70th Week.
The beast conquers Israel during this era, and the new believing Israel is harbored in Petra.
It is generally accepted that the Bride will have been caught up in the Harpazo prior to Israel receving the Lord’s pouring out of His Spirit.
Sean,
I realize that you think the Gog war is pre-trib that has been my view as well but you really did not answer my last question. Are you saying that the house of Israel is saved before the seven year tribulation?
You quoted in your prior post the following passage about the Gog war.
“Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel“,
You then also said,
“the promised saving of all Israel by the Old Testament prophets and by the Apostle Paul (see Romans 11) will have been accomplished no later than the conclusion of the War of Gog/Magog”
So if the God’s Spirit is poured out on all Israel and the Gog war is pre-trib. How can Israel not know Jesus Christ?
I think some with your view believe there is a difference between the house of Israel believing in YHWH at the end of Gog war and the accepting of Jesus as Lord near the end of the tribulation.
The problem with that view with many Bible prophecy students is that scriptures seems to make no such distinction and it even conflicts with that concept.
Can you point out any scriptures that would support that first the house of Israel comes to belief in YHWH and then more than seven years years later they accept Jesus Christ? I can see why such a suggestion will be rejected by most.
If you can build a case from scripture it would be easier to accept. How can Israel have the Spirit as pointed out in Ezekiel 39:29 and not have the knowledge of Christ? Why would God send Israel through a seven year tribulation if He had already poured out His Spirit on them at the end of the pre-trib Gog war?
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Can you clear this up?
Don,
I am researching this. One thing I would note immediately is that the Bride of Christ has been persecuted relentlessly – and this was after Pentecost and the indwelling of the Bride by the Holy Spirit. Our forebears were fed to Roman lions, and worse.
Why should Israel’s conversion to redemption be any different from the experience of the “grafted in branch” after having received the Messiah?
If you find any answers from scripture let us know.
I would say that Israel has been going through persecution as well for rejecting their Messiah. Just the last Jewish holocaust killed 1/3 or the Jews on the earth. In any case, why would Israel be persecuted after the whole house of Israel received her King? I think one of the main points of Jacob’s trouble is to put Israel in a place where she will seek God and acknowledge their offense of killing the Messiah that God sent them. Remember also that in the first half of the tribulation we have the two witnesses and the 144,000, so if Israel already knows the Lord at that point what would be their purpose? Why would a saved Israel even get into a covenant with the Antichrist?
Don and Sean – Don you comment “I think some with your view (Sean’s) believe there is a difference between the house of Israel believing in YHWH at the end of Gog war and the accepting of Jesus as Lord near the end of the tribulation.”
I firmly believe this Don. There will be some who believe in Christ as a result, with the help of the rapture and the 144,000 witnesses, either of which I don’t put entirely into the seventieth week of Daniel, but most will believe in YHWH only, and a minority of others will likely believe in neither. The evidence in the YHWH belief is that in the aftermath of Ez. 38 the Jews appear to reinstate the Mosaic Law evidenced by the “cleansing of the Land” (Mosaic Law precept) in Ez. 39:11-16. (I believe in a Pre-Trib rapture and issuing in of the 144,000 witnesses promptly thereafter).
Additionally they will at some point along the Ps. 83 and / or Ez. 38 timeline rebuild the temple and reinstate animal sacrifices, which further evidences their re-gravitation back to the Law. Furthermore, the leaders of Israel will embrace the false covenant of Daniel 9:27, which they would not do if they were Christians at that point.
Don you further comment “The problem with that view with many Bible prophecy students is that scriptures seems to make no such distinction and it even conflicts with that concept.”
The distinction is similar to Ezekiel 36:24 and 36:25. It is the interval gap of time between the regathering of the Jews into Israel and the ultimate salvation of the nation, which occurs at the end of the Tribulation. This gap appears again between Ez. 37:13 and 37:14. Ez. 39:29 is a gap also. Ez. 39:7 accomplishes Ez. 36:22-24 (sanctification of God’s holy name). God will santify His name, but this does not mean Israel nor the nations will become believers necessarily, rather it puts the world on notice that God is real, powerfully sovereign, and that His name is holy. This will cause many Jews to regress back to the Mosaic Law.
I see no conflict, thus far. The greater conflict is in the fact that Ps. 83, Ez. 38 list 19 disctinct populations that war against Israel and the Armageddon campaign involves over two hundred nations, not listed in Ps. 83 or Ez. 38. These are three differing events in my estimation. The main hint of timing on Ez. 38 is the fact that they will burning the weapons for 7 years, this suggests that the conclusion, not commencement of Ez. 38 must be at least 3.5 years before the signing of the false covenant. Mid trib the Jews will fleeing for their lives not burning weapons.
Many Blesssssssings
Bill Salus
Bill,
That is a very good explanation. I do not disagree with that view at all but I am not sure everyone is really getting my point about my questions about what Sean said.
Having Ezekiel 38 and 39 span the period from the Gog war until the end of the tribulation is the only way that you can make the Gog war pre-trib and then reconcile it with other late tribulation passages. By the way, your position is the position that I hold. I believe the Gog war is pre-trib but the wording in the end of Ezekiel chapter 39 goes all the way to the end of the tribulation when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh. Israel accepts Jesus near the end of the tribulation not before the tribulation even begins.
So you are really saying there is a time gap in Ezekiel 39 which accommodates the return of all the Jews and the gathering of all the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat where God sanctifies His name by destroying all the nations that come against Israel (verse 37). I agree that has to be the case if the war is Pre-trib like we think.. If God pours out his Spirit on Israel at the end of Ezekiel chapter 39 at that point we can no longer be pre-trib. We have to be at the end of the tribulation.
As I also said before, the reason I also believe the war of Gog is pre-trib is because of the seven years when Israel is burning the weapons of war. I do not see how that can be done in the tribulation. The burying of the radioactive dead and the burning of the weapons of war for seven years in the Millennial reign of Christ does not make sense for other reasons.
My real difficultly here is in what Sean said, Sean did not indicate that he thought that there was a gap before Ezekiel 39:29 and seemed to make all of Ezekiel 39 pre-trib his follow up comments only enforced that view when he suggested that Israel needs to be persecuted after receiving the Lord because the Church was also persecuted. If one is going to make every word of Ezekiel 39 pre-trib then we have a problem because the wording at the end of Ezekiel 39 says the same thing as wording in other prophetic passages that talk about what God will do after the tribulation of those days.
Amen – I like it when we agree Don. I’m sure Sean will explain himself, he tends to do that well. I don’t see a national conversion of Israel into Messianic belief in Christ until the end of the Tribulation as per Hosea 5:15.
Many blesssssssings
Bill
I think we are on the same page Bill. I appreciate your Ezekiel 39 gap explanation it helps me explain what I have believed for a long time. I think we who think the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel Gog war is pre-trib need to be able to present sound arguments how that could be so. You are doing that.
I think Joel gives us the sequence of the Gog war and the valley of Jehoshaphat war but if one was not aware of that concept one might think the whole book was talking about one event. I think Joel is talking about two different wars and two different covenant fulfillment’s for Israel that all take place in one generation.
Blessings,
Don
Don and Bill.
Sorry for the belated reply… I am burning more eschatological candles than I should at this point in time. There are so many wicks on the prophetic candle I’m holding that it might as well be a menorah – no pun intended.
The 7 year gap of Israel’s burning of the weapons and the cleansing of the Gog/Magog battlefield is the key to what I see as the return to YHWH worship (per Ezekiel 39:29) by Israel and the rebuilding the coming Temple (which might also be executed early in the immediate aftermath of the Psalm 83 prophecied defeat of the “inner ring” Arab/Islamic nations.
This islamic religious defection from “allah” will constitute the core of Sunni Islam (as we currently understand it) and might well occur concurently with or shorty thereafter with the pouring out by the Lord of His Spirit upon at least 12,000 of every regathered Jewish tribe who will, per Jeremiah, “look upon Him who they pierced”,
I think we’re all on the same page with respect to this exegetical timeline. These things will occur some unknown number of months or short 360-day Biblical years after the Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 events have been fulfilled.
Don,
In the comments above that we wrote back and forth on May 25 and May 26 about the “antichrist”, I believe I have come across the answer to the “was, is not, will be” riddle in Revelation.
First take a look at revelation 9:11
Then see Revelation 17:8.
Viola! Riddle solved.
It is the fallen angelic spirit known as Abaddon/Apollyon who will ascend – he was, is not and will be – again upon the earth. This is the spirit that I surmised had possessed Antiochus IV Epiphanes and will rise at the appointed time to also possess the man who will be antichrist in Daniel’s 70th Week.
.
Hi Sean,
I guess that is possible if the being that “was, is not, will be” is actually a demon. Abaddon/Apollyon is the name the Bible puts on this destroying demon that ascends out of the bottomless pit so that makes sense.
I do have problems with the demon in the Antichrist being Apollyon since that demon is not mentioned until well into the tribulation.
I can buy into this demon theory dwelling in multiple people through time but I still do not know where the Spirit of Satan is if the Antirchist is possessed by Apollyon or some other demon unless when Satan is cast unto the earth the demon takes over the body of the Antichrist and the Apollyon demon then goes into another person who becomes his false prophet.
Maybe Apollyon does not possess the Antichrist at all. Maybe Apollyon possesses the False Prophet? It fits the timing of events better.