Bible Prophecy wars over an Antichrist out of Islam
There is a rather heated controversy stirring between traditional Bible prophecy authors who think the Antichrist will be a western figure and more recent authors who think the Antichrist will come out of Islam.
I wrote on this in July and gave some of my thoughts why the Antichrist would not be a Muslim and his Beast Kingdom would not be Islam.
In the last Jan/Feb issue of Lamplighter magazine Dr. Reagan critiques four books that make the claim that the Antichrist is out of Islam and Dr. Reagan gives his views why this is not the case and is sloppy exegesis.
http://www.lamblion.com/files/publications/magazines/Lamplighter_JanFeb09_ACMuslim.pdf
Well that magazine article stirred up a hornets nest from the authors of the books and some of their supporters. The one sided rebuttal to what Dr. Reagan said about their claims can be found here.
Bill Salus author of Isralestine recently posted an article on his blog that supports the views of Dr. Reagan and there is now a pretty interesting discussion on all this on his blog. The first link contains my comments to Bill’s article and the second link is Bill’s blog post where the article is posted and where the discussion is taking place.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/2009/01/10/debunking-a-muslim-beast-antichrist.html
http://prophecydepot.blogspot.com/2009/01/does-daniel-debunk-assyrian-antichrist.html
Yesterday I posted a comment on Bill’s blog why I agree that the Antichrist does not come out of Islam. I wrote a email to Bill last night after he alerted me about what was being said on Prophezine by those attacking Dr. Reagan. (Bill asked permission to post the email I sent him on Jan 14th early yesterday but maybe he since changed his mind about posting it since I have not seen it on his site.)
I guess nothing further needs to be said by me at this time since my views are on most of the links I just sighted. You might want to follow this discussion because all of a sudden there are many jumping on the Islamic Antichrist bandwagon and obviously by what I said I think that belief can lead to misdirection and great deception. My position and argument is more from logic and the big view rather than straining at scriptural gnats to try to find a word or two to support a theory I want to believe. Maybe that is not a very scholarly approach but I never claimed to be a scholar. I do claim to have some common sense logic and at least a wee bit of understanding about the big prophetic picture.
One thing that I did not mention in my comments is that the nations that are under Islam have no real military power and anyone thinking that they will suddenly develop modern military capabilities to fulfill the Beast Kingdom that no one can war against is just believing in fantasy. Now if you want to believe the Antichrist is supernatural and has supernatural capabilites I guess anything is feasable but if he were that powerfull (and he will be) what need does he have of any world religious beliefs? The fact is that he does not, and that is why he turns against and burns the world relgious Harlot as soon as he receives Satan’s supernatural powers.
Here is another article by Dr. Reagan that gives the profile of the Antichrist
Date posted: Thursday, January 15th, 2009 3:16 pm | Under category: Beast/Antichrist, Bible prophecy teachers, Islam, Tribulation period
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Interesting. It occurs to me that the concept of an antichrist is widely known even in the secular world. This would imply that when THE ANTICHRIST does appear he would have to defeat another “antichrist” in order to deceive the world into believing he was worthy of worship. It may be we are witnessing the rise of contender and pretender. I personally hope I’m not around in the natural to see the outcome. Maranatha.
The churches of today have drifted so far from sound scriptural doctrine that the deception that is spoken of in the Bible seems not only possible, but likely. It has been said that “Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.” The United States is toward the back end of this cycle. The Bible says that man would continue to gain in knowledge but never get closer to the truth. There is only one way, one truth, and one life and that is the Lord Jesus. Wherever the anti-christ originates from, he will be defeated. Please do not expend your energies tearing down other believers when there are so many unsaved who are doomed without the benefit of the saving grace of Christ. Seek your discernment and guidance from the Lord and know in your heart that He is in control. Look up, for our redemption is near!
I hear you, but don’t get the wrong impression nobody is tearing down other believers.
What is happening is the disputing of certain secondary theories and doctrines. We are told to test all things because anyone can say anything and sway many people and with mass media today that become even more critical.
You might think those teaching that Islam is the Beast is insignificant, but perhaps not if it becomes a deception. It will not be insignificant if a world leader rises up against Islam and the whole pseudo Christian world follows the leader because they have been taught that Islam is the Beast and that their leader is the Antichrist.
But, in reality the world leader they follow will be the real likely candidate.
If the Church did not discern what teachings and doctrines are correct there would be no true Christian theology available to anyone, nor a Bible. You would also eliminate teachers from the fivefold ministry because everyone would just believe any interpretation of scripture they want without regard to learning proper exegesis.
It would be sort of like the postmodern church of today. Huh?
Hello, please join in helping the IDF. More info here: http://tinyurl.com/7zngkk
Hi Don, God bless your ministry.
When I think of the False Prophet, the Book of Revelation says he has global
power.
Rev 13:13. This sounds to me he will have military authority. Would this fit
more the description of some UN Ambassador or perhaps a Tony Blair peace type.
Sorry I’m not attentive to details.
Are you 100% sure that Antichrist comes from Europe? You kep saying that Muslims are weak. Are you aware that Turkey’s Army supercedes any army in Europe?
Indeed, if you are 100% sure that Antichrist is from Europe, then I have 3 challenges for you. Indeed, if you can respond.
THE THREE CHALLENGES
Does the beast of Revelation involve Middle Eastern Muslim nations, is it exclusively European, or is it both? Some say the notion that Islam could play a prominent role in the coming revival of the Roman Empire is impossible, unorthodox, untraditional, the work of ‘Lone Ranger’ type interpretation, and even revisionist.. 1
The majority of American evangelicals believe that the Antichrist system must be exclusively European, yet this view is changing after the last few years with the rise of Islam.
So, could Islam play a role in this end-times scenario? You might think to yourself—so what? Why should we care? Well, why then did the Almighty give us Daniel and Revelations? Even better still — why did God give us all the Messianic prophesies regarding Jesus’ first coming? Careless followers that missed these ended up without salvation, regardless of whether they sacrificed lambs in the Temple or obeyed the law—when it comes to the issue of Messiah, they missed the most crucial event in history. All for not paying close attention to Bible Prophecy. And what about the second coming? Are we to be careless with respect to the evidence presented in the Bible? I am not saying that you could lose your salvation, but if you end up on the side of Antichrist, you never had salvation in the first place.
Yet today, the debate is brewing—what about the threat of Islam? Did the Bible warn us about it? Are we supposed to keep our focus exclusively on Europe?
To shed light on the implications of such detailed evidence (which spawned countless challenges and questions) I decided to write God’s War on Terror regarding Islam’s involvement in end-times. Consequently, I get challenges daily, not only by Muslims that want me dead but also from Christians who are dogmatic about their views. Ironically, we have no record of any Christian minister killed for exposing the E.U. as the work of Satan, yet we have millions who gave their lives for standing up to Islam. So please allow me to alleviate some pressure and present you with only three challenges:
CHALLENGE 1: Did traditional Prophecy scholars teach that Europe is exclusively the Antichrist kingdom?
You might be shocked to know that the highest caliber commentators of old did not believe that Europe was the exclusive player in the End-Times. A revival of a Roman Empire never meant a revival of a European Empire.
Many of our best western scholars on Bible prophecy believed that Islam would be a major player and will revive in the end of days as part of this end-time beast. John Wesley interpreted the Iron in Daniel 2 as Islam (Works, 1841). Hilaire Belloc foresaw Islam‘s rise.2 Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica interpreted the martyrdom of Christians during the Great Tribulation to come from Islam. Josiah Litch interpreted Revelation as the ushering in of Islam.3 He even described the magnitude of Islam’s role being Antichrist to the extent of calling it the “general agreement among Christians, especially protestant commentators.” Cyril of Jerusalem (315-368 A.D) in his Divine Institutes believed that Antichrist proceeds forth from the region of ancient Syria 4, which today extends from Syria well into portions of Asia Minor (Turkey). Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (560-638) and Maximus the Confessor (580-662) identified Islam with Antichrist and lived through Islam’s invasion of Jerusalem. Maximus was also an important theologian and scholar of the early Church who helped defeat the Monothelite heresy referred to the Muslim invasions as “announcing the advent of the Antichrist.” John of Damascus (676-749) was another very important figure in the early church. In his famous book, Against Heresies, he identified Islam as the forerunner to the Antichrist. Eulogius, Paul Alvarus and the Martyrs of Cordova (9th century) believed Muhammad to be a false prophet and the precursor to the Antichrist. 5 Many are not aware that while Martin Luther, father of the Protestant Reformation, believed that the Papacy played the role of the spiritual harlot, he also believed that the Muslims were the Kingdom of Antichrist. 6
John Calvin interpreted Daniel 2 eastern leg as the Eastern-Roman Islamic Empire and that Daniel 11:37 applied to the Muslims. 7 Even Jonathan Edwards the great American congregational preacher, revivalist, and president of Princeton University, like Luther and Calvin, saw Islam as one of the premiere elements of the Antichrist Kingdom. 8 Calvin even interpreted Islam’s fall at the sound of the great trumpet 9 Islam falling at the sound of the great trumpet even carries Islam into the Great Tribulation and not as many of our contemporary prophecy analysts who allege that Islam must be removed prior to Christ coming.
Even Sir Robert Anderson, perhaps one of the best prophecy experts who unlocked the seventy weeks of Daniel, in his remarkable book The Coming Prince, insists to focus on the Levant (Eastern) parts rather than the Adriatic (West). 10
Countless other Bible commentators warned about Islam being the kingdom of Antichrist—Selnecker, Nigrinus, Chytraeus, Bullinger, Foxe, Napier, Pareus, John Cotton, Thomas Parker, Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, and George Stanley Faber. 11
Also added to the list is Rev. Professor Dr. Francis Nigel Lee who sums up the traditional view in his excellent work Islam in the Bible: “from the seventh century onward – [the two legs] would degenerate respectively into the Papacy (which progressively took over the West) and Islam (which progressively took over the East.” (p. 5)
Making Europe the exclusive body of Antichrist kingdom is not the orthodox or even the traditional view. Some insist that Antichrist is Italian since he comes from the Roman Empire, but Roman does not strictly mean Italian, just as Alexander the Great was Grecian, this does not mean Athenian—he was from Macedonia. Antiochus Epiphanies, another biblical prediction was Syrian not Athenian or Cypriot. Why then, when it comes to Antichrist, insist on an Italian ignoring the whole empire. Even Jesus insisted that Pergamum in Revelation 2:12-13, was the seat of Satan and not the gymnastically altered interpretation for an archeological relic that sits in Berlin.
While contemporary prophesy analysts trumpet the idea that the fourth composite of Daniel 2 iron metal as strictly European, traditionalist views differ. Dr. Matthew Henry comments: “Who is this enemy—whose rise, reign and ruin are here foretold? Interpreters are not in agreement. Some will have the Fourth Kingdom to be that of the Seleucidae and the ‘little horn’ to be Antiochus…. Others will have the Fourth Kingdom to be that of the Romans, and the ‘little horn’ to be Julius Caesar and the succeeding emperors, as Calvin says. The Antichrist, the Papal Kingdom, says Mr. Joseph Mede.
Others make the ‘little horn’ to be the Turkish Empire [Muslim]; so Luther, Vatablus, and others. Now I cannot prove either side to be in the wrong. Therefore, since prophecies sometimes have many fulfillments, we ought to give Scripture its full latitude (in this as in many other controversies)—I am willing to allow that they are both in the right.” 12
NORTH AFRICA
Most students of prophecy that ascribe to a revival of the Roman Empire ignore that North Africa (Phut) encompasses five Muslim nations historically part of the western wing of the Roman Empire, and already mentioned literally in several end-times references. In order for the exclusively European model to fit, the whole of this Muslim region must be irrelevant. So what part of the Roman pie do we slice off and what parts do we include?
CONTEMPORARY VS TRADITIONAL
So what happened? Why do we have such a variation between contemporary versus traditional? The problem began in 1981 when Greece joined as the tenth nation in the European Union and many sounded a false alarm that announced they unlocked the mystery and have the fulfillment of Revelation 17, all with its ten horns, to later be embarrassed when the European Union mushroomed into twenty some nations.
Instead of pulling back their books, these analysts ran back to the drawing board, not to confess their error, but to insist that the E.U. model must shrink to only ten.. They still chose to finagle with the theory. Some, like Arnold Fruchtenbaum, realized that this was wrong: “It has become common today to refer to the ten kingdoms as being in Europe only, especially the Former Common Market, now the European Union. But the text does not allow for this kind of interpretation. At the very best, the European Union might become one of the ten, but it could hardly become all of the ten.” 13
According to Fruchtenbaum, the European model comprises only one tenth, a mere slice of the whole pie. Jamieson Fausset & Brown insist that, “the ten toes are not upon the one foot (the west), as these interpretations require, but on the two (east and west) together, so that any theory which makes the ten kingdoms belong to the west alone must err.”
CHALLENGE 2: Besides the argument on whether Magog is Russia, can anyone cite any literal reference to a nation that God destroys in the End-Times that is not Muslim?
Only if you ponder this question can you grasp its magnitude. On one occasion during a lecture to a group of prominent Bible prophecy teachers in the Pre-Trib Prophecy Conference in Dallas, I asked this question and no one raised a hand to answer.
In frustration, I pointed to Dr. Randall Price, a known Prophecy teacher and asked him to respond, in which he pointed that when it comes to literal references there are none. Grant Jeffrey, another known author, once attempted to respond with Cush, not realizing that biblical Cush (a reference sometimes translated as Ethiopia) is defined in the Unger Bible Dictionary as a landmass south of Egypt. Today this will be Sudan and Somalia.
Grant Jeffrey chose one of the most fundamentalist Muslim nations as a response to find non-Muslim nations in end-times. David Reagan of the Lion and Lamb Ministries with frustration pointed to Mystery Babylon 14 ignoring that the crucial word in that question is “literal”. If Babylon is a response to cite any literal reference for a non-Muslim nation that God destroys, this would still support my view— Mystery Babylon is an allegoric reference.
CHALLENGE 3: In every portrayal of Christ’s return to the earth, is He not fighting a nation that today is Muslim?
The significance of this question is as follows —scholars are unanimous, that Christ’s second coming must happen after Antichrist appears on the scene. Christ’s mission will be to destroy Antichrist and establish His Millennium kingdom. The European Union model has the Muslim hordes destroyed before the Tribulation period. Yet the text shows that Messiah Himself deals with Muslim nations.
The next prophecy conference you attend ask, “Is Jesus on earth on the Day of the Lord?” Ezekiel tells us of that day, “For the day is near, even the Day of the Lord is near” (Ezekiel 30:3). Yet this is when “Cush and Phut, Lydia [Turkey] and all Arabia, Libya and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt” (Ezekiel 30:5). Other prophesies show these nations are cast into Hell, including Asshur – “Iraq – Syria”, (Ezekiel 32:22-23) Elam – “Iran” (Ezekiel 32:24-25) Meshech & Tubal “Asia minor—Turkey” (Ezekiel 32:26) – Edom – “Arabia” (Ezekiel 32:29). These nations are punished for striking terror against Israel and the believers (Ezekiel 32:22-24 & 27).
Perhaps sharing a few from the volume of hundreds of prophecies of Jesus’ wars during the Great Tribulation can shed more light on the matter: “See Jehovah rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them” (Isaiah 19). Does this remind you of the song “behold He comes riding on the clouds”? Yet rarely are we told that Jesus here is fighting Egypt—a Muslim nation.
Even in Christ’s judgment of the nations (Joel 3) He is fighting Muslim entities. “Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon [Lebanon] and all you regions of Philistia [Gaza]” (Joel 3:4) It couldn’t be more clear! It was as if Jesus Himself was speaking directly to Hezbollah (Tyre and Sidon) and Hamas (Philistia), challenging them regarding their bloodlust against the Jewish people. Their fight against Israel is in reality a declaration of war on the King Himself.
In Isaiah 25:9-10 at the time of the Lord’s return, we have Christ fighting Moab “And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation. For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under Him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.” (Isaiah 25:9-10).
Even in Isaiah 63, scholars unanimously agree that He fights Edom (Arabia).
Are the Muslim nations in prophecy destroyed prior to the Christ’s coming? Will the Antichrist then establish his European rule? Can anyone find a verse in the Bible in which Christ fights and nations are literally mentioned which are not Muslim?
This is why many who exclusively see Europe as Antichrist insist on removing Islam from the scene prior to the coming of Christ. Since the Muslims still exist on earth upon the Lord’s return fighting against Him, their whole premise of an exclusively European Antichrist falls apart.
Walid Shoebat, God’s War on Terror http://www.Shoebat.com (720)935-2826
REFERENCES
1 Lamplighter Newsletter, David Reagan, January 2009 edition.
2 The Great Heresies, chapter 4 March, 1936, page 127-128
3 Hosiah Litch, The Three Woe Trumpets, Fall of The Ottoman Empire, August 11, 1840
4 Divine Institutes, 7:17
5 Paul Alvarus, Memoriale sanctorum 2.4
6 Martin Luther, Tischreden, Weimer ed., 1, No. 330
7 Calvin On Islam Revelation Prof. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee, Lamp Trimmers El Paso, 2000
8 Jonathan Edwards, The Fall of Antichrist, Part VII, page 395, New York, Published by S. Converse 1829
9 Jonathan Edwards, The Fall of Antichrist, Part VII, page 399, New York, Published by S. Converse 1829
10 The Coming Prince, Page 273
11 Froom: op. cit., II pp. 323f, 325f, 331, 340f, 412f, 458 & 518f and also III pp. 40f, 74f, 125-31, 149, 183, 240f, &352f.
12 M. Henry: A Commentary on the Holy Bible, with Practical Remarks andObservations, London: Marshall Bros. Ltd., n.d., IV:1270f.
13 Fruchtenbaum, Footsteps of the Messiah, page 36
14 Lamplighter Newsletter, David Reagan, January 2009 edition.
I am aware of Shoebat’s three challenges. They were made on http://www.propheizine.com and I gave a partical response to them through Bill Salus who is now about to submit a response to the part of the challenge that no non Muslim nations are mentioned in these end time wars against Israel. I think if you read the various posts I have made on this subject on this Blog I would not have to repeat it all here. Also, keep in mind that Islam does play a role in end time prophecy. There will be a war against Islam in these end times but it is not because the Beast comes out of Islam. The war with Islam will set the stage for the Antichrist to rise out of the MU (not the EU).
Christians are being persecuted all over the world so don’t think it strange that those who attack Islam will be attacked by those who follow Islam. Attack the beliefs of Hindus or Buddhists and you might receive threats from them as well. In any case, threats in itself prove nothing about where the Antichrist originates.
First, let me say no one is saying that Islam is not antichrist and anti Israel. But so was Hitler and the Communists. All sinners who reject Christ are antichrist but that does not mean Islam is the Harlot of Revelation like some now claim. I write that all false religion since Babylon is the Harlot and after the Religious wars of the near future only a form of pluralistic Universal religion will be allowed to be practiced on the earth because any religious fundamentalism will be seen as a threat to world peace. So the Harlot of Revelation is all antichrist religion and not just Islam. What we see in Revelation 17 is the culmination of the great Harlot since ancient Babylon. The make up of the end time Harlot will be all who join with the acceptable world pluralist religion and not just a more politically correct peaceful form of Islam.
The first challenge really is pretty week.
What classical writers wrote about Islam hundreds of years ago does not carry much weight for correct eschatology today They knew little about these issues, most were amillennial. Obviously some people of any time would think that the enemy of their day would fulfill the prophecies of the Antichrist just as some thought the Catholic Church would or Hitler would or Communism would. For every classical scholar you can come up with that claims the Antichrist will come out of Islam I think ten can be found that say the Antichrist will come out Catholicism. Besides, where else would those who held the eschatology views of Catholicsm think the Antichrist would come from? So just picking those who support your views and ignoring those that do not support your view does not add weight to your theory.
The fact is the Antichrist will come out of neither Islam or Catholicism per say, unless the name of the pluralist universalist politically correct world religion will once again be called Catholicism.
The Second challenge was answered in the blog I wrote last summer and my recent emails to Bill Salus.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/2008/07/24/will-the-antichrist-and-his-beast-government-come-from-islam.html
Email one
To Bill Salus.
I personally think that the Antichrist will come out of the MU not the EU because the MU has the exact same nations as the Roman Empire. That does leave the possibility of an Assyrian Antichrist but that does not mean he has to be Assyrian and it certainly does not mean that he is a Muslim. I read most of the arguments for why they claim the Antichrist is Muslim but it is easy to build a one sided case. Obviously, Islam is antichrist but that does not mean it will produce the Antichrist or the Beast system. Obviously, there will be massive wars against the Muslim nations of the world but that does not mean that Jesus Christ is coming to battle against Islam. The nations that today are Muslim will obviously be followers of the Antichrist when he arrives because ..duh.. most of these people are not Christians and Islam was always antichrist. That does not mean that the Antichrist is from Islam it just means that most that occupy those nations are antichrist and anti Israel and they will accept the Antichrist.
It is obvious that when Jesus comes he will destroy those nations around Israel because the bible says so, and the nations around Israel display that they hate Israel. As you know that is a blood feud and it is not going to change if Islam becomes pluralistic or even Catholic. What is Islam today becomes just another member of the world Harlot after the religious wars.
It also is not honest to scripture to say that the Antichrist is just going to be regional. The Bible is clear that he will control the whole world and that no one can buy or sell without the mark of the Beast. The whole world looks at the slain prophets and rejoices not just what are today’s Muslim nations. The judgments are also worldwide in the end. Those who limit the Antichrist to Islam and the Middle East are very near sighted. They take a very weak position on the Antichrist. Like he will be some Islamic hero and not a supernatural being.
No, the Bible is clear that Satan will be cast out of heaven and when he is woe to the people on the earth because he knows his time is short. Satan will incarnate this man and all of Satan’s angels will support him. It will be like Zeus came to earth with all his lesser gods and that is who he may claim to be. His power will be incredible and absolute and if Jesus did not come back to save the elect no flesh would be saved.
The people writing about a Muslim Antichrist are setting people up the for accepting the real Antichrist. As I said before, the great deception will probably be that the Antichrist will have claimed to have killed the Antichrist and the False Prophet when in reality he killed the two witnesses of God. So with that deception the whole world will rejoice and be ready to go into his counterfeit Kingdom of God. But, to get into his kingdom you have to take his mark. It has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. He will claim no religion because he will claim to be God.
It really is not necessary to try to refute each point of their arguments because their arguments are very subjective and in the eye of the beholder. So I just take the logical position. There simply is no way that the Western world is going to put itself under the bondage of Islam. It is not going to happen and there is nothing in the Bible that portrays a world under Islamic law in the last days. On the contrary, everyone is doing what is right in their own eyes like in the days of Noah. The NT makes it very clear that in the last days men will be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. That is only possible under the permissiveness of the West.
They then would argue that the Antichrist is a regional conflict with Islam but that is not what the Bible teaches about this man and his kingdom. Those who take up the fight against Islam in the coming religious wars might just find that they are really putting the Antichrist in a position of power.”
Email 2 to Bill Salus.
“Jesus will be coming to judge all nations. The nations mentioned in prophecy were given as a witness against them and so we that we could properly discern end time events and the three different wars mentioned in the prophecies. Some nations near Israel receive a very harsh judgment not because they are Muslim but because of how they treated Israel. Perhaps Mr. Shoebat should consider that this statement in Revelation chapter 16 is literal.
16:12 ¶ And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
And these passages as well,
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Re 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Zep 3:8 ¶ Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Joe 3:9 ¶ Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heat hen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Jesus will judge all nations not just those nations around Israel that are Muslim today. When the kings of the East come with their hordes from nations east of the Euphrates will China and India be Muslim? Not likely. And will Islam fight against them causing the death of a third of mankind? Not likely, with what? Also the Lord says in Isiah and Revelation that He is going to shake the whole earth and all small and great will go in caves and holes in the ground. This is not describing a regional event and neither do many of the other judgments describe the end time judgments limited to Muslim nations around Israel.
One other specific thing in Isaiah is that the Day of the Lord will come against the ships of Tar’ shish. The ships of Tar’ shish are not Muslim.
What these writers fail to understand is that Islamic nations have no real military power they are not going to become a world power anytime soon. The US, Israel and NATO would make a short work of them on the battlefield. A few nukes and old tanks does not make a world power.”
Less than half of all Muslims in the world live in the lands mentioned in prophecy. So using their own logic that only Muslim nations are named, why are not all these other nations mentioned as well if the fight is against Islam and its Antichrist? By the way, the claim is that Islam is the Harlot of Revelation but Jesus does not come back to fight the Harlot she is burned by the Beast before the return of Christ. So why does the Beast out of Islam destroy itself?
Challenge three,
was really answered by number two. Just because all the nations around Israel are Muslim does not mean that Jesus will come to fight Islam. He will come to fight against the Antichrist who gathers all nations of the world to fight against the Lord.
Cherry picking scriptures is hardly an infallible argument. Most scholars will say there are three wars. The war of Psalm 83 the war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 and the Armageddon campaign where the three demons that come out of the mouth of the Antichrist and False prophet deceive all the kings of the earth to come with all their armies against the land of Israel. Obviously the prior wars before this are dealing with people who are practicing Islam but those wars take place before the Antichrist is even on the scene. So when you cherry pick scriptures make sure you are picking the right scriptures for the right war.
Again I do not claim that the Antichrist has to come out of the EU. I claim he will come out of the MU because the EU does not reflect the lands of the Ancient Roman Empire but the MU does. That in no way suggests that Islam is going to give birth to the Beast. What Islam really reflects is that most in that region of the world have rejected Jesus Christ and when the Antichrist comes, being dead in their sins they will be all to eager to be deceived and embrace the Antichrist as God. Maybe just like in Biblical times they will call him Baal or Zeus rather than the God of the Quran.
As for Islam and Turkey and the Muslim nations being able to fight the West and win is simply not possible. Those who actually believe that Islam is a threat to take over the world are about on par with those that think man’s CO2 will cause run away global warming and destroy the world. These ideas are based on junk science, Junk eschatology and junk logic.
So that’s my response about an Islamic Antichrist anything further can be found on my blogs and the comments I made on them.
Don,
Thank you so much for attempting to answer Shoebat’s 3 challenges, but not so fast.
Shoebat’s argument in the beginning of the challenge was to discount this Eurocentric Antichrist and your responses did not diffuse his arguments, in fact, they proved them true which I will prove. From your own statement you stated “Again I do not claim that the Antichrist has to come out of the EU. I claim he will come out of the MU because the EU does not reflect the lands of the Ancient Roman Empire but the MU does.”
This would agree that Challenge 1, that many traditional interpreters were correct and Reagan is wrong–the E.U cannot be the exclusive representation of Antichrist as commonly thought in modern circles.
If you review Shoebat’s challenge carefully, what Shoebat wanted to diffuse is a “modern” limited view. In fact, throughout your article here, you insist that Antichrist is much larger, you claim that his influence will encompass every nation.
Then you say “I write that all false religion since Babylon is the Harlot”.
You keep forgetting that the Harlot is also a city. You failed to point that city.
Remember, the Bible says “the woman that you see is a city”, wish that you pointed that out. For your argument to be correct, you need to find a city that would encompass all false religions.
You can choose Rome (Vatican), yet this would be odd since Vatican does not rule the Muslims. Remember, your claim is the M.U as Antichrist. Am I to understand your abbreviation to mean Muslim Union?
Then you state “Islam is setting the foundation for the Antichrist Beast world system.”
Yet you bring no biblical verses to support that Islam simply sets up the stage.
If so, you might want to respond to challenge #3–All the nations that Christ fights are Muslim. How is Jesus fighting the “stage” which comes BEFORE Jesus, when in fact Jesus is fighting Muslim and not European nations.
What surprised me in your response is that it was void of any scriptural reference to any of your claims (except in the end with ‘all nations’) This type of argument can create all sorts of private interpretations.
You make the claim that Islam cannot be Antichrist, yet you say “I am not saying that the Antichrist is Islamic although that is possible.”
This statement would seem odd, at one point you say it’s impossible and then you say its possible. Do I see a contradiction in your statements?
Then you state “I personally think that the Antichrist will come out of the MU not the EU because the MU has the exact same nations as the Roman Empire.”
So you do recognize then that David Reagan’s model is flawed. Your own statement says so. Reagan and others are Eurocentric–you are not. In fact, and its obvious, you and Walid Shoebat would be in more agreement then Salus and Reagan.
Then you enter into what I call a confession and a contradiction when you state “That does leave the possibility of an Assyrian Antichrist but that does not mean he has to be Assyrian and it certainly does not mean that he is a Muslim.”
An Assyrian Antichrist, yet not Assyrian? Is this confused logic? Or what?!!!
Then you make an accurate assessment “It is obvious that when Jesus comes he will destroy those nations around Israel because the bible says so”
Aha, did you see what you said “nations AROUND Israel”, not the whole earth, and THESE ARE ALL MUSLIM. This would prove challenge #3 to be accurate.
Then you completely abandon this view and encompass the whole world, and for the first time in your writing you begin to quote Scripture “Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat,”
And you quote:
“Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled…”
And I am so glad you brought up Scripture. Next time you respond make sure you include Scripture and not your interpretation of it.
Lets first address Zechariah 14 is that “I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it” in your view is a global battle and not regional. Since, and according to Reagan context determines meaning, then according to even Reagan’s own logic and your friend Salus when the text says “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples” should mean that only the surrounding nations round-about Jerusalem is what is included—the Middle East region, and not the whole globe.
Similarly, in Joel 3 which Reagan agrees is regarding the judgment of Antichrist and his hordes, “I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat… for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations,” (Joel 3:2, 4, 9-12).
In summary, you presented conflicting and contradicting arguments and do not seem to have fully made up your mind.
Oh, by the way, I just visited Bill Salus blog and this guy makes outlandish statements like the Bride of Christ is broken into east and west, that the west has all the knowledge. Then he makes another crazy claim that the revival of the Roman Empire cannot include its eastern division since it was lost to the Ottoman Muslims. Is this guys for real? Comon guys, this borders insanity. He even makes the New Testament as a WESTERN book. This is really a crazy claim.
Nothing he wrote there colloborates anything that any historian or theologian agrees with.
The New Testament (including the Gospels) was written in Greek because that was the lingua franca of the eastern half of the Roman Empire.
Yet you use Salus as a source? Yet you ignore Sir Robert Anderson, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley and Hilaire Belloc?,
Good luck
Personally Ed, I don’t get all this “challenge” stuff. As for me, it doesn’t matter if the anti-christ rises out of Boise Idaho. I’m not looking for him. I’m looking for the Faithful and True one. The Mighty God, Prince of peace, the Wonderful Couselor, King of Kings and Lord of Lords… the Lord Jesus Christ.
In my twenty years of studying eschatology, I have learned as of late that we are not going to have it all figured out this side of eternity. There are going to be prophetic events that overtake us and after the fact we will see the fulfilled prophecy because we have studied and will see it for what it is. Example, many people centuries ago knew that God would regather Israel back to their land in the last days. But none foresaw that the Holocaust would be a major driving force that God would use to allow this to come to be. We can see sign posts on the journey, but don’t always know the exact route and every twist and curve to the ultimate destination.
My issue with those who know propose this Islamic Anti-christ flavor-of-the-month is your arrogance. You beat on your chest and proclaim how the Hal Lindseys, Grant Jefferys Tim Lahayes and John Walvoords have it all wrong and you have figured it all out. Maybe you could be right. And if you are, I’ll be the first to pat you on the back when we get home with the Lord. But until that time, this is not an issue of doctrine and should not divide brothers and sisters in Christ. It’s no different than the Pre, Mid, Pre-Wrath and Post rapture debate that cuases so much venom to be spewed in the church. Who cares, as long as in the end, Jesus is coming to get us.
My views are that between the Psalm 83 and Gog-Magog wars is that the moon god Allah is going down and going down hard. And through these events many Muslims will rethink and come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. I agree with Don that it is not the EU that will be the dominant power, but the MU and the beast could rise out of either leg of the old roman empire. Again, I really don’t care because I believe that the Lord will have snatched us out of this world system toilet before that time.
Again, it’s interesting to discuss these things, but in the end it’s all about Jesus. And that’s who we should be looking for.
Ed,
You are making some wrong assumptions about what I said when answering Shoebat’s challenge. The MU is the Mediterranean Union recently put together with the help of France. It is beyond me how you could even think it was the Muslim Union.
Most Bible prophecy scholars believe that the Antichrist will rise in the old Roman Empire and then go worldwide after he is incarnated by Satan at the mid tribulation point and some think he will then move his headquarters to Babylon. I do also. I do not believe Dr. Reagan believes this. So although I agree with Dr. Reagan that the Antichrist figure will arise in the area of the Roman Empire I do not say he has to come out of the EU. I am not even sure the EU will be in existence anymore at the time of the Antichrist. I personally think the MU will replace it. I do say that when this world leader rules he will rule from Rome during the first half of the seventh week of Daniel.
John said the city of the Harlot is the city ruling over the nations. At the time of John that city was Rome and that is my position on where the Harlot religious system will be headquartered. Frankly, I think it will be the Vatican after all the faithful Christians are removed in the Rapture and at that point the Vatican will head up by a pluralist Univeralist one world religion. It may be inclusive of a watered down Muslim religion as it will also be inclusive of a watered down Christian religion. She will be a true Harlot after all.
The end time Harlot is just the culmination of Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon existed since the rebellion against God at Babylon. So the Harlot is a city that rules over the earth and rides the Beast into power and Mystery Babylon is the satanic religious spirit found within the Harlot.
I am sure everyone’s end time model is flawed to some extent including mine but I am much more in agreement with Dr. Reagan than with Shoebot. I think I adequately explained why on two other blog posts that I wrote on this subject. The links to those are given in this post.
I say Islam is setting the worldwide foundation for the Antichrist not because the Antichrist comes out of Islam but because Islam is a religion of intolerance and the same people who reject the gospel of the love of God’s Son will accept the Antichrist when he comes. That includes most Muslims today unless they are somehow converted. That does not mean that the Antichrist is Muslim or that Islam is the Harlot that John saw. Like I said, I believe there will be an inclusive world religion after the religious wars that will put down all religious fundamentalism for the sake of world peace.
Your the one with confused logic. Someone heading the MU could be Assyrian by decent and still rule from the MU headquarters at Rome. I am not saying he will be Assyrian by decent but I do not rule it out either. For example, a Pope could be Assyrian and rule from the Vatican in Rome. No, I am not saying the Pope is the Antichrist.
I gave plenty of scriptures that says the Lord will judge all nations when He comes. So just because I said it is obvious that he will destroy the nations around Israel does not mean that He is coming to destroy only those nations. More faulty logic. You have no way of knowing that fundamental Islam will even exist at the time of Christ’s return.
I see you try real hard to be arrogant. You claim I did not quote scripture but I quoted more scriptures than you did. It also does not do a whole lot of good to cherry pick scriptures since many scriptures picked are interpreted to support preconceived theories. We cannot write a book here you know. Those who are claiming that Islam is the Harlot or the Beast/Antichrist are not getting that from good exegesis. They are getting from their own worldview and then they are cherry picking scriptures to support it.
The rest of what you said is just ridiculous and not worth my time to make a reply. You obviously have a problem absorbing what you read and proved it by what you said about Bill Salus blog. Personal attacks will not be tolerated on this blog. So if you want to be arrogant you will certainly get lost.
Another question,
Your blog states that this is a Bible Prophecy discussion group. Are only ones that agree to your view are invited? Or do opposing views need to go elsewhere?
Ed,
This is a Blog were I post articles on World trends and Bible prophecy but I do allow some discussion on the post topics. However, it is not a place for endless debate on your views of eschatology versus Dr Reagan, myself or anyone else. I also do not like the way you posted your reply to what I said and your arrogant attitude in general.
I guess I could spend all day answering your scores of points on your exceeding long comment but then I would get nothing else done at all. I also know for all that effort in replying to your exceeding long sentence by sentence comment I would just get rewarded by another response with another exceeding long set of replies to everything I said. And on and on it would go just wasting my time. I have thousands of posts and many other things to do other than argue with one person on this post. Therefore when someone abuses my time their posts may be disallowed. If you want a debate on every point of Eschatology I suggest you go to a bulletin board forum that does that. Five of your posts have been disallowed one for the reason stated above and four because six posts in a row in my view is nothing but spamming. Also I have three post on this blog on the idea of an Islamic Antichrist if you read them all and the links I have in these posts you will know my view on these things. Just type Muslim Antichrist in the search box and you should find them.
Ed,
I though I would let you know that I actually took hours of my time this evening answering all your questions directed at me in the seven posts that you sent today. I decided to answer them by personal email rather than allowing you to post them here. However, the email did not go through because the email address your using here is invalid.
Just before I sent this email I received another post from you with a personal attack and personal threats. You are obviously therefore now permanently banned from posting any further comments on this Blog.
Don said: “Muslims will accept the Antichrist as will other religious
> because they like all false religion reject Jesus Christ. It will not be
> because Islam takes over the world. That concept is not realistic Islam
> could not survive the backlash from the lawless people of the western
> world.”
>
> My view is one whereby the Muslims don’t need to take over the whole world
> in order for them to accept the antichrist. When the prophets and Jesus
> (in Revelation) were revealing the character of antichrist their known
> “world” stretched East-West from India to the Atlantic and North-South
> from southern Russia to Ethiopia-Sudan. Essential all of those areas and
> half of India is under the influence of Islam. They need not conquer the
> entire Western world to qualify as the leader of the “nations of the
> world” as defined in the Bible.
>
> Secondly, Muslims would never accept a leader which came from a non-Muslim
> country. As a matter of fact, the case has been well documented in Walid
> Shoebat’s latest book that Islam’s coming Mahdi will lead these Muslim
> nations in a war against Israel. Ironically, Shoebat points out that their
> Mahdi is described in the Koran and other writings precisely as the Bible
> describes the antichrist!
>
> The case for a Muslim antichrist is not all that unrealistic. That’s my
> two cents’ worth.
The problem is that your view does not fit what it says in Revelation. It says no one can buy or sell without the mark of the Beast. If the Beast is Islam and has a Muslim Antichrist it has to be worldwide. There are also other scriptures that indicate that when Satan is cast to the earth that all on earth that are not written in the Lamb’s book will worship Him as God. It also says that Satan will have all power over all tongues kindred’s and nations. So we cannot be talking about a limited regional Antichrist.
Islam came from a bastardization of Christianity and Judaism. So it should not surprise anyone that they took Christian prophecies and put their own spin on them. What I want to point out is that you cannot establish truth from the lies of Islam Eschatology. You might as well try to figure out the truth of Eschatology through the views of some pagan New Age fortune teller that once read the Bible. I think Shoebot makes a grave error by giving their collection of traditional nonsense as some sort of proof to establish his own theories on biblical eschatology. Its much like taking Tolken’s anthologies to establish Christian eschatology.
You say Muslims would never accept any Antichrist who did not come from a Muslim nation. I would say they would not accept one who did not confess Islam but that really is not the issue. Who says that Islam as we know it today will even exist at the time of the revealing of the Antichrist?
First, I expect religious wars and after the bloody wars the only religious teaching that will be allowed will be a watered down pluralism so as not to offend anyone for sake of world peace.
Second, when Satan is cast out of Heaven with all his angels he will have tremendous power over the earth. So much so that people will think that he is God. Therefore, there will be a paradigm shift of religious thinking for all. I think people will give up their traditional religious for a New Age version that will be brought to them from so called higher beings that will claim to have come from the stars.
In others words do not judge everything but what you see today. People thought the Roman Church was the Antichrist system and then the Nazis and then the Communists and now Islam. What people do not understand is that this is not going to be a earthly deception coming from doctrines of man. It is going to be a supernatural deception with lying signs and wonders. When this great delusion comes on man the Bible says all on earth will be deceived except for elect. Islam is not even in the same ball park as the deception that will comes when Satan and his angels are cast unto the earth.
I can’t disagree with much of what you say. Let me expand on my view a little more.
Of course Antichrist will have world wide influence. The goal of Islam is to conquer the world for Allah, the greatest of all deceivers. What you say about Satan being cast down to the earth is all in the Bible and the mark of the beast, etc. I can never deny what is in the Bible.
We are saying the same thing but I didn’t say enough to clarify how I view all these things. What you need to understand is that Islam eschatology is not taken from fairy tales, it is taken from the Bible but Satan being the clever one has reversed everything. He has introduced this false religion with all the same characters with new names. The Antichrist is the Mahdi, he has his false prophet who will perform lying signs and wonders and make the world worship the idol that he will construct and force people to take the mark upon themselves on the forehead and/or on the hand.
Mahdi doesn’t do anything different from what the Bible says. The beast is Satan (Allah) and he instructs the Antichrist (Mahdi) to gather the nations against Israel in the last days. And he enforces his new laws from the temple in Jerusalem when he performs the abomination of desolation. He will have tremendous spiritual powers to deceive even some of the elect. What Mahdi does is not by mere human schemes but with the power of Satan behind him.
I’m not at all judging the end times by what I see today. After all, have you seen the end times explained in this way before? Satan is the great deceiver and comes arrayed as an angel of light, sending his Mahdi to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years. Yes, indeed, this is in Islam’s eschatology. Then he will break the treaty at three and one half years and set himself in the temple as world ruler. They also treat Jerusalem as an holy city.
We cannot dismiss Islam as something that will disappear as a religion. No, it is the fastest growing religion in the world and will dominate in the last days. If anything disappears, it will be the once great nation of the USA after every vestige of God is removed from our government. But we know that the winner is the Lord Jesus Christ. When all seems lost and all the Judeo-Christian world sees only darkness, then will our Lord come to defeat the armies of Islam. There is a saying we have on a wall of our house: “Faith is seeing light with your heart when your eyes see only darkness.” I’m not being pessimistic. I’m being realitstic.
We need to wake up and smell the coffee. Our Western way of interpreting eschatology from a European viewpoint is becoming less and less appropriate my friends. Who is the biggest threat to world peace today? (hint: not the USA). Who has publicly announced that his country will wipe Israel off the map? Who says he is the one that will make the way clear for the Mahdi? Who has threatened the Great Satan (USA) with annihilation?
Our problem in this country is that we think that Iran is only a threat to Israel, that if we stopped interferring in the mid East we could withdraw and be safe within our own borders. But we have been already infiltrated by terrorist cells throughout the United States. They don’t need to fly airplanes into buildings anymore, they have plans to blow up big cities from within. To think that we can withdraw from the mid East and go back to normal life again is a pipe dream.
The goal of Islam is impossible it could never take over the world. The lawless people of the West will never allow themselves to come under Islamic law. The Antichrist is lawless and people following the Antichrist love living in their sinful lawlessness. This is expressed in Revelation. Even after judgment they will not repent of named sins. The lawlessness described in Revelation does not in any way fit Islam. On the contrary Islam is all about keeping moral laws.
The Antichrist is not the Maudi. I hate to break it to you but there is no Maudi. The Maudi is just a Muslim fairytale he is not a real person. The Bible describes the man of sin as a real person not some fairytale. He also is a contemporary man not someone preserved in some well. There is no Beast/Antichrist until Satan is cast out of the heavens unto the earth. Until that happens do not be deceived no one has a clue who Satin will incarnate. The man cannot become the Antichrist until Satan offers him everything and he accepts like he once offered Jesus.
You wrote whole paragraphs about what the Maudi will do. How would you know what a Muslim fairytale will do? You read someone’s book. It certainly is not taught in the Bible that the Maudi will do these things. It talks about a real live man not a Muslim phantom. How could a Muslim Maudi gather all nations of the world against Israel? The real and pseudo Christian West and the New Agers and Atheists are not Muslim and they never will be. Remember the world loves living in sin and will not repent even after increasing judgments of Revelation, so why do you think the people of the West and East are going to submit to Muslim moral law? It is not logical.
Also, Allah is not Satan. The Allah as described in the Quran is just another false made up God. He does not really exist and the writings in the Quran is based on certain influence from a demonic spirit at best. Satan really exists and he is the author of all false religion on earth not just Islam. So why would the Eastern religions like Buddhism Hinduism and others suddenly follow a Islamic leader who according to Islam will conquer all world regions? It is total nonsense.
Why would the West lose a war against Islam just because they have increasing numbers due to having many children? The armies of Muslim nations are a joke against Western modern weapons. So believe it or not the West does not need Jesus Christ to save the world from Islam as if all hope will be lost for the world because Islam conquered the world.
I know where you got your Western way of interpreting eschatology spiel you got it from Shoebat’s book. There really is only one way to interpret eschatology and that is the Christian way. The Bible was given to Christians we do not need to look through Islam and Eastern pagan eyes to find out the truth about biblical eschatology. That is Shoebot’s main problem, he is trying to explain Christian eschatology through pagan thought. The guy was a recent convert when he wrote his book. He ought to have first learned from the Christian scholars before he tried to redefine all eschatology for us through his former Muslim eyes. What Eastern Church eyes is Shoebat suggesting that we see through?
I submit to you that this Muslim Antichrist is all a ploy by Satan. He wants the West to believe that Islam is the Beast and some Muslim Maudi figure the Antichrist. That is because Satan’s real Antichrist will rise to power in the world war against Islam. First there will be a counterfeit tribulation put on by Satan in order to convince the Biblical illiterate world that the tribulation is over and the second coming of some Messiah figure is due. That is when the Antichrist will appear and set up his Kingdom. Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars and that kingdom will rise up against kingdom but He went out of His way to say do not be deceived the end is not yet. For when the world says peace and safety (after the Antichrist victory) that is when the real judgments of God will come on the earth suddenly like birth pains and no one will escape.
It does not matter in Christian eschatology who the biggest threat to world peace is today. Yesterday it was Hitler and they wanted to exterminate all Jews. Then it was the Soviet Union and they wanted to take the whole world for Communism. Now it is Islam and they want to take the world for Allah but the Arab Muslims will get a rude awaking in the war of Psalm 83 when Israel kicks their butt. Yeah, that is before the tribulation. Some time after that war Gog will come down with Russia and non Arab Muslim nations but they will get crushed supernaturally by God but all of this is still before the Antichrist even arrives on the scene. So Islam is not the Beast and those falling in that trap are opening themselves up to popular deception.
What you say about Islam and terrorism might be true but that is the very reason there will be a war against fundamental Islam and why those now in Islam will be forced to modify their beliefs to fit in with the pluralist world Harlot or they will be killed. The same will be true of fundamental Christians because fundamentalists of all religions will be seen as a threat to future world peace.
I do not know a nice way to say this but had you even read the post and all the articles that I linked to in that post, and had you read my many comments, you would not be bringing up the same old Shoebat nonsense as if it will carry the day.
You hold to classical replacement theology?
Apparently we are not saying the same things.
I teach against replacement theology. I do not know why you would even suggest such a thing. Obviously we are not saying the same things. I believe in the classical interpretation of premillennial eschatology and you pushing Shoebat’s redefinition of biblical eschatology through his former Muslim eyes. By the way, I already answered Shoebat’s three challenges to those who disagree with him in the comment of this post.
The reason I asked was because of your harsh statements. I too don’t understand why you say some of the things you say. Do you not want honest debate?
Sorry you don’t appreciate what Shoebat has to offer. Because you already answered his three challenges, is that supposed to settle the whole matter? Is there no room for civil discussion? If you can lay aside your emotions about the man long enough to understand his reasoning, maybe we could have an intelligent discussion about the matter. But name calling is a definite barrier.
I’m literal with my Bible understanding, premillennial and pretrib in my eschatology, with a progressive view of OT and NT revelation. We don’t have to agree on all things, but we do share an aversion to Replacement theology.
I like to comment about doctrinal things but don’t feel like my view is the only right one except for the basic tenets of the Gospel. By grace through faith in Christ alone. But there is plenty of room within the understanding of faith and eschatology and prophecy to make for good discussions. I am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of being right but for the sake of solid doctrine.
Blessings
What has honest debate have to do with asking me if I teach classical replacement theology? My statements were not harsh. They simply answered the issues you brought up.
Also as I said before, this is not really a debate forum. It is a place to make comments on what I posted. I cannot take the time to go into endless back and forth debate on thousands of blog posts. So anyone who thinks that this is USENET, a bulletin board forum or a chat site should go elsewhere.
Look at it this way. This is my Blog where I post my views on world and church trends and Bible prophecy. Often the post gets ranked by Google and that is how many people find what I wrote. Most bloggers who do this either do not allow comments or they monitor them and only allow posts that will contribute to their point. I do my best to walk the line in all this. I allow all posts unless they become abusive or destructive or a great waste of time.
A blog is a public journal by the author and helpful comments are encouraged on mine but it is not a debate forum. Those who think it is are mistaken. Most blog sites do not have the resources for endless debates. Even Fox will close there blogs to public comments after a very short period of time. Each comment adds to the length of the file and soon servers have problems handling it. Not to mention that most new people are not going to read through hundreds of comments.
i will allow a certain amount of debate on my blog but that is not the purpose. The purpose is to get my views across and to get comments from other people that have information that mainly supports the thesis. In a world of 6.7 billion people there are always going to be many critics on any topic posted and they will tie up all blogs if we allow blogs to become endless debate forums.
If you read everything I said on this issue on three blog posts and also the links to other articles that I and others have written against a Muslim Antichrist it settle the issues for me. Some people come here but do not read the articles, links or comments before they comment and they just bring up the same points already discussed and then expect me to waste my time rehashing what I already talked about. I need people to at least do me the courtesy of reading the post article, the referenced links, and prior comments before commenting on my blog or I will just close the post to further comments.
I have no emotions about Shoebot other than I think he is looking at Christian eschatology wrong. Why I think that is has already been discussed here. I should not have to endure presenting the same arguments that I have already presented. I answered your points but in reply you just seem to want everyone to see it Shoebat’s way since that is where your information is coming from. You claim to be a Bible literalist but you seem all to willing to follow someone who gets his ideas from the eschatology of Islam.
What name calling are you referring to? All the name calling I see on these threads is coming from the people who are on this Islam Antichrist bandwagon. It is not just here either although I had to ban one fellow. It is happening anywhere where Bible scholars dare to critique their Muslim Antichrist books. Dr. Reagan did that and he got gang raped by this crowd on a Christian website that sells their books.
It might help if some of these people developed a Christian attitude and did not argue their new theories like if criticism of what they wrote is an attack on there manhood. I guess that is a result of New converts and not mature Christians writing books on Eschatology. Oh is that a personal attack? Actually it just happens to be the truth.
I think we have had a good discussion on most of the points of the possibility of the Antichrist being a Muslim in this tread and on the other two on-going threads that also deal with this topic. But the point of all my threads on this topic is to debunk this new fad that does away with sound exegeses and instead tries to interpret Bible prophecy through the eyes of pagan beliefs. Why I say that is expressed elsewhere in this thread.
Blessings,
Don
I appreciate your frank and patient reply and I will abide by your wishes.
If you posted these thoughts somewhere I must have missed them. Sorry.
One more comment. I believe Shoebat makes a sincere effort to back up his statements with scripture. But we obviously don’t read him the same way. That’s OK, too.
Stan,
You can find what I said on the subject of a Muslim Antichrist on this Blog by clicking on “home” at the top of the sidebar and then typing “Muslim Antichrist” in the search box at the top right part of the home page of the blog. Then read my comments, the articles I quote in the main post and my follow up comments.
Happy hunting.
I don’t necessarily agree with every viewpoint stated on this website – but I do agree – that the antichrist CANNOT be Islamic for the following reasons:
1: The war of Gog and Magog (Ex 38) effectively sees God wiping out Israel’s Islamic invaders – militarily and politically – at the beginning of the tribulation. For the antichrist to arrive on the scene at that point – declaring himself Muslim – would place him on the receiving end of this humiliating catastrophe – crippling his claim to power (his power base having just been humiliated & discredited). Hardly a way to wow the world with his awe inspiring problem solving powers. Who would follow him after this auspicious entrance ?
2: I see Rev 17:17 showing a demonically inspired beastly government waging war against a demonically inspired prostitute of a world religious system. Burning her with fire it says. I don’t see the antichrist making a second horrible miscalculation – by aligning himself with the losing side (religion) in a governmental extermination campaign aimed against religious systems – with Islam being the prime recipient of its wrath.
3: Satan masquerades as an angel of light. Its his way. How then could he arrive on the world scene as a Muslim – in the midst of an ever increasing grip of world-wide Islamist terrorism. He’d never identify himself with that crowd. No – he’s going to come in like a rescuing knight in shining armor. By supernaturally empowering these terrorists to commit ever increasing atrocities on world stage – Satan is setting up Islam as the fall guy. Satan’s got to have an enemy to destroy – and after the whole world is finally sick to its stomach with Islamist terror – and religion in general – he’ll have mankind eating right out of his hand – and lining up in droves to get the mark of the beast. They’ll say “this is the best thing in the world to do – and long overdue” !
4: Satan also has another calling card – the end of our economic problems. By the time the US Dollar collapses and the US Government declares national bankruptcy – the world will be looking for an economic savior too. “Step right up folks – get the mark – and buy and sell”!
5: The war of Eze 38 will remove Islam’s power to object to the rebuilding of the Temple on the same property as the Dome of the Rock. When he sets himself up there as God – Satan isn’t going to share his glory with anyone – and will step out from behind false religion to receive worship directly. By claiming himself to be a Muslim – he’d be sharing the stage with Allah – something his outsized ego could never tolerate.
Rob
The Dome of the Rock is not on top of the old temple site. The new temple will be rebuilt adjacent to it. I don’t have the link to the article since my computers’ hard drive crashed last month or I would post it here.
Many do believe that the Temple site is located far away from the mosque for the Temple to be built on the mount with the mosque still remaining, although some others disagree.
I personally think the Temple Mount will become an international center of worship and all three of the great monotheistic religions will have a center of worship on the Mount. I believe the site will be administrated by the Vatican.
Regardless of how far away the old Temple site is from the Dome of the Rock – its ALWAYS too close for Muslims. All one has to do is look at the long history of explosive violence that occurs whenever any Israeli maintenance work is done at the temple mount.
This is why the war of Gog and Magog must vanquish Islamic politically and militarily in order for the Temple to be rebuilt anywhere near its historic location.
On a related topic – Dr. Reagan provides refreshingly insightful comments on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17 – further discrediting the Islamic antichrist theory.
1: If prophecy literally means Babylon – obviously in Iraq – one wonders why Revelation painstakingly describes it as a “Mystery Babylon”.
2: For Babylon to rise to world domination requires this tiny tourist attraction just outside Baghdad to explosively develop almost overnight – suddenly bypassing decades of necessary infrastructure, industrial, political and military development which is hardly in keeping with our fairly obvious nearness to the end-times – and occurring within the breathtakingly short time of a 7 year tribulation.
As for my comments:
3: As for Rome being the City on Seven Hills (as it is commonly referred to) in Revelation – this does not line up with the Greek translation of Rev 17:9 referring to “seven mountains”. Biblical mountains also imply governments (Daniel 2:35) and the city of Rome is built on hills, not mountains (The Guzik Commentaries).
4: Clearly the Babylonian prostitute (religion) has been committing “adultery” with governments (mountains) for centuries – and will so again. Again Revelation – “There are also seven kings (beasts). Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come”. Further confirming that Babylon points to an historically systemic – adulterous relationship between religions riding on governments dating back to the death-cult of Pharaoh’s Egypt. Babylon.
It is clearly not discussing a city in Iraq.
5: That Rome and Constantinople form the two feet of the old and revived Roman Empire is generally and rightly accepted – yet the Roman expansion rarely stretched very far into the Islamic world (east to west). Do a Google search on Roman Empire Historical Maps for a fine century-by-century view of how little Roman incursion occurred there.
A careful examination of the countries currently between those two feet (Rome / Constantinople) reveals no mixture of Islam and non-Islamic peoples – the iron and clay of Daniel’s vision. More likely its the clearly brittle mixture of Islam and western culture we now see in the Roman Empire’s former & vast northward territorial possessions of Europe.
They’re still digging up Roman artifacts at construction sites just outside London-istan for heaven’s sake.
6: As for a totalitarian Romish church – I’ve no problem with a defective pope aligning himself with the antichrist – but as a supporting role of “False Prophet” not as antichrist.
As the Guzik Bible Commentaries notes Pope John Paul’s bizarre involvement with non-Christian religions:
“In addressing Muslims, Jews, Buddhists (the Pope said) their efforts were unleashing profound spiritual energies in the world – bringing about a new climate of peace. The Catholic Church intends to ’share in and promote’ such ecumenical and inter-religious cooperation.”
The Catholic Review said further “The unity of religion promoted by the Holy Father and His Holiness the Dalai Lama – the love which both Buddha and Christ preached so eloquently – will unite the world in a common effort to save humanity from senseless destruction, and lead toward the light in which we all believe.”
7: Its not too far a stretch to suggest that the Roman empire – once standing on Rome and Constantinople – but thrusting its might northward – refers to a revived Roman Empire in Europe (its historical stronghold) – and not Iraqi Babylon – and certainly not run by an Islamic antichrist for my reasons stated in my previous posting yesterday.
Rob
PS:
To demonstrate just how miserably ancient Rome failed to penetrate the lands of the future Islamic empire – consider that upon invading Persia they were so totally outclassed by the Parthian archers riding horseback –
that they were even slaughtered by the arrows of retreating Parthian horsemen – giving rise to the famous term “parting shot”.
Rob
What the situation is with Muslims and Israel today is not what it may be tomorrow after the Marian signs and wonders deception. Read my latest post. I also have other posts on this topic you will find them if you do a topic search from the homepage search box or even look on the sidebar. If there is then a one world inclusive religion there is no reason why the mosque and temple cannot be located together on the same mount.
I think Dr. Reagan throws out the baby with the bath water in some of his arguments here. Babylon will be rebuilt but it has nothing to do with any Islamic Antichrist, it has more to do with the fact that all false Region started there and will end there.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/babylon.htm
After Satan enters the Beast Antichrist he will more likely identified with a Eastern New Age concept then any existing monotheistic religion. In fact I think he will claim to be Zeus. Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the foreshadow of the Antichrist and he claimed to be possessed by the spirit of Zeus and when he defiled the Temple he set up a statue of Zeus.
I also think Dr. Reagan does not make clear distinction between Mystery Babylon and Babylon. My Revelation Commentary does make the distinction very clear and it is not only based on the passages found in Revelation.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Revelation%20Chapter%2017.htm
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Revelation%20Chapter%2018.htm