The main point of this post is that Jews needs to be told about Jesus Christ before they go into the tribulation. It will be hell on earth for Jews living in the tribulation even though a remnant will live through it. I guess we have said enough on this side issue.

But anyway, I think for the sake of the original topic and not letting this develop into a discussion about covenant theology vs dispensationalism, it’s best to stick to the basic points that have been argued here because there is a variety of views within dispensationalism and covenant theology and you could keep arguing for eternity about this. So I think the basic lesson here is this: Israel’s rejection is NOT final. Christ died for Jews and Gentiles alike. Christians should share the Gospel with the Jews. The Jews will be most blessed if they accept Christ.

Btw, I think if anyone else is reading this, the following basic overview of covenant theology and dispensationalism might be of help (I’m not affiliated in any way or taking responsibility for other content of the website):

http://www.xenos.org/essays/covdisp.htm

nasrani

I would not say that Classical dispensationism is in error, they just still have a few things wrong. Dispensational theology is really the only theology that can answer all the questions taking the scriptures in a common literal sense. Covenant theology sees a whole lot of things wrong because it believes everything is about the Church. So it get things wrong on God’s plans for Israel and it is wrong on almost all eschatology but getting into all that is a very long subject.

The essential required eschatology for a Christian is the belief that Jesus will physically return for His Church and judge the living and the dead. That does not mean that the detail are not important. God gave us the scriptures for a reason. You cannot properly understand many instructions to the Church if you get eschatology all wrong.

I also agree with what you wrote about theology in general. I don’t think it’s good if you have to keep changing your views on major and essential issues though. I’ve really become more or less settled with basic Reformed theology, but there are some non-essential issues that I’m undecided on. I also don’t want to go around bashing those with other views because I don’t claim to have the absolute truth. For instance, when it comes to eschatology, there are generally good arguments on all sides. Classical dispensationalism is in error, but then Covenant theology also often seems to be over-emphasizing some things so it doesn’t allow enough room for physical Israel and the role of the Kingdom of God anymore. Some historic premillennialists have actually admitted this also, but of course they’d still disagree with your modified pre-trib dispensationalism on other grounds.

Eschatology is a non-issue when it comes to your personal salvation. After all, why would God expect a non-believer or a new believer to have eschatology all figured out? Nevertheless I’ve always believed that a future millennial rule of Christ is real and biblical. When you take it seriously and literally, I’ve found that it also leads to issues like Law and Gospel, Israel and the church, or even soteriology. That makes it quite a difficult subject, because it can challenge some other views you hold. One of the things that really challenged me to explore diverse views on the topic is that there are so many apparent contradictions. For instance I’ve seen many people who are Reformed and not dispensationalist and still support Israel and allow room for a restoration of the nation.

Anyway, hope this clarifies the statements I’ve made on this topic. God bless.

Also, I think those that those who believe in progressive dispensationism are too willing to throw out the baby with the bath water in order to find accommodation with those in Covenant Theology.

Everyone still has a lot to learn. Many things in scripture are not easy to understand and a good case can be built on both sides of opposing theologies. That is why we have different denominations and theologies. It is not like some think, when they claim it is just because they do not know the scriptures. Others think they can have all correct theology by just learning the scriptures, that is not possible. These theologians know the scriptures very well they just read them and see different interpretations for many different reasons. The Bible is much more complex than our Constitution yet we need 9 top judges to interpret it and often they reverse their decisions. Anyone who says they have difficult theology all figured out are not worth listening to. That certainly includes those that teach and comment on eschatology. When someone writes me and tells me God gave them the truth about the end time events and why everyone else has been wrong. I really cannot justify wasting my time listening to them.

Ladd does believes in Israel’s full national restoration but only to be fulfilled entirely in the Millennium. However, it’s true that he doesn’t make the distinction you do as to whether it’s “natural” or “spiritual”. I’ve always believed that the believers who died in the tribulation would reign with Christ on earth during the Millennium because I interpret Rev 20:4 as refering to those who died in Christ as basically being part of the Body of all believers (i.e. the Church), regardless of whether they’re Jews or Gentiles. But obviously, if the Bride is the Church and the Church is really taken away before the tribulation (pre-trib), that doesn’t make much sense. So I understand your argument now.

Ladd is, of course, post-trib. That turns out to be the view I have held for most of my life, except that I used to be more of a dispensationalist. However, I also see a lot of merit in your pre-trib arguments. I am glad that you’re not a classical dispensationalst though because I don’t think that’s a very biblical view anymore. Basically I have come to see the Church as the extension of Israel rather than as a seperate people, but in any case it’s clear to me that regardless of the position you want to take on this, God will eventually restore historic Israel.

I’m not that familiar with the book of Ezekiel so I’ll have to look into that, along with the prophecies of Isiah, I guess. There’s a lot left to learn on the subject. I basically don’t really know what to believe sometimes. There are many astute and well-informed Christians who hold quite different eschatological beliefs. I hope to devote more time to this subject. I’ve been reading different interpretations just to be aware of all the different arguments, and to compare. It can be very daunting though, e.g. the roles of Church and Israel and the relation between them, is there a rapture or not, etc. The topic is huge.

In any case what I do know for sure is that premillennialism makes the most sense of all eschatological views, and I believe it is really also the biblical view. Christ will return, He will reign for a thousand years on earth, and Israel will be restored as God’s people in every way possible. Regardless of the greater details, I will always stand by those basic premillennialist views.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain, and God bless!

It is true that the Church rules and reigns with Christ but where do you suppose we rule from? I think we will be like the angels and go back and forth on Jacob’s ladder to the Holy City in space above Jerusalem and Jesus will be there also most of the time. There really is no provision on earth for a large amount of the Church to physically dwell on earth at any one time. Remember we do have bodies. Therefore, and according to the prophets Israel will be running the physical affairs of the world. But I am sure we will have total control over all people of flesh even more so then the Angels have control over the earth today. That is because everyone on earth will be filled with the knowledge of the things of God and Jesus will be ruling with a rod of Iron.

Certainly Israel is not God’s Spiritual nation. That is the Church. We are destined to become the Bride of the King ruling and reigning with Him and dwelling in the Holy City for eternity. Yet, we know there is no Jew or Gentile in the Church but we also know that all will not be in the Bride or there would be no need for a Kingdom or millennial reign. I think the best way to explain this is as some theologians have suggested. The destiny of the Church is to replace the fallen Angels in God’s universe. I think the destiny of the nation of Israel is to reign over the physical nation on earth. The earth will be living under God’s law. If you read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 you get the picture that Israel and probably the earth is living according to the law. That is also probably the reason for the rebellion in the end. Those saved in the millennium cannot become part of a married Bride. That makes no sense.

The people of Israel only become part of the Bride of Christ if they come into the Bride through faith before the Bride is married to Jesus before the Father in Heaven. No one can ever become part of the Bride after the wedding. Not all saved will be part of the Bride, in fact most of them will not be. I know this is difficult stuff to understand probably because Christians are told the role of the Bride and Israel is told the role of Israel. The roles and their eternal destinies are quite different.

You might look at this way. If you study the things of heaven you will always see a hierarchical order of beings. That is not going to change. We are not all going to have the same roles and all be on the same level. That just is not the way God designed his creation. Jesus implies that in many places such as His statements of rewards and taking away of rewards and the statements on the greatest and the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. So knowing that and other scriptures it seems to me that the Church will soon be the highest order in heaven. We are told that we will even judge or rule over the Angels (also the reason why Satan and his angels rebelled and hate us). In any great kingdom not everyone is royalty and is ruling and reigning with the King. These other saved humans will occupy the new earth.

Even Israel’s ancient system foreshadowed the hierarchical order in heaven. You had Moses representing God and Arron the high priest, you had the elders, you also had the priesthood that served in the temple. In addition you also had the rulers over the tens, the hundreds, and the thousands. Another “type” was when one trumpet blast was blown only the princes of the people assembled. When two blasts were blown there was a general assembly.

On the 144,000 and the tribes of Israel, the tribal identify of Jews is certainly no mystery to God. After Israel fell most of the believers that were left in the land of the ten northern tribes probably migrated down to the area of Judah and Benjamin. So they all became known as Jews but God knows what tribe each Jew is descendant from. Why can’t the 144,000 be both Jews and Gentiles? Because God named them by their Jewish tribe. Why would God do that if they are like the Church and are not of specific tribes? You have to understand that God still does have a purpose on earth for Israel in the millennium. Again, if you study Ezekiel 40 – 48 you will see that the land is divided into tribal regions so Israel will undoubtedly regain tribal identity after the restoration.

The Problem with George Eldon Ladd is that he does not understand that God has a natural purpose and fulfillment for Israel in the future and a spiritual fulfillment for the Church. When natural promises are made by God they cannot be fulfilled by spiritualizing them to the Church. For example, their are the physical land promises, you cannot say the land promises were fulfilled in the Church. An example where there are duel fulfillments to both Israel and the Church is the promise of a New Covenant. That New Covenant was actually given to the natural descendants of Jacob without precondition. The Church is grafted into the New Covenant through belief in the Jewish King but the New Covenant is still a promise to the nation of Israel and it speaks of conditions in the millennial restoration.

The whole issue of Israel vs Church or who is “God’s chosen people” gets rather confusing and I don’t think it was meant to be. I understand that some promises are meant for the physical descendants of Israel and I agree God will restore them. I suppose that by “chosen people” you mean that they are God’s “chosen” people in that He will fulfill the promises that are meant to those Israelites God has elected to salvation. I would agree with that.

However, I do have a problem with the view of some that present-day Israel is somehow more “chosen” and more God’s people than the church. After all, am I a lesser child of God for not being an Israelite? Am I not chosen and His child as much if not more than most modern-day Jews, most of whom don’t believe at all? Aren’t the promises that apply to the “physical” Israelites made for those among the nation of Israel that He has chosen to salvation? So don’t these chosen Israelites then simply become part of God’s people as a whole, by which I mean the Body of all true believers, thus also “restoring” them in a spiritual sense?

Don’t get me wrong, I agree there will also be a “national” or ethnic restoration in the Millenium for those saved Israelites, but then those Israelites would be believers anyway and therefore God’s “people” and also His “chosen” ones in every way possible, both spiritually and physically. Then Israel will truly be a display of God’s glory and grace to the gentile nations. My beef is with the way many say that Israel in the present-day dispensation is God’s chosen people plain and simple, and the Church of gentile believers somehow is not.

In my views on Israel and the Church, this pretty much represents how I see it: http://www.gospelpedlar.com/articles/Last%20Things/Eschat_for_Laymen/ladd5.html – I don’t know what you think of Ladd’s historic (non-dispensationalist) premillenialism but I’d be interested to hear.

Another thing I just don’t understand is the 144,000 Brethren. How can all of them be descendants of Israel if ten of the twelve tribes have gone missing? Even the small groups of people from Asia and Africa are not a guarantee that all tribes are now present in the state of Israel. And who says they’re Israelites at all? If I had some ancestor from an Israelite tribe, would that make me qualify as an Israelite, after centuries of intermarriage? Would that give me some special or higher status than others? I would think not. A person who’s not born of a Jewish mother is technically not even a Jew anymore. People who were raised Jewish strictly speaking aren’t Jews either. So why can’t these sealed persons consist of both Jewish and gentile believers during the tribulation?

Anyway, just some of my thoughts. I know my last paragraph is off-topic and it might be beyond the scope of the original topic. Then again, it’s all related in one way or another, isn’t it? If you think it’s not fit for this topic, feel free not to publicize. There’s always email instead.

God bless.

Make no mistake, Israel is God’s chosen nation on the earth. That is God’s plan for natural Israel and the earth. Israel will be a holy nation of priests to the world in the millennium where they will fulfill their destiny as the head of the nations. The believing Gentiles are now being grafted into the new covenant promise given to Israel by betrothal to the King of Israel. This will go on until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (the bride is complete). After that Jesus as King of Israel will come with His Bride and His heavenly host and deal with the nations who would not have Him rule over them. But remember, judgment starts with the house of God. Israel will be dealt with in the time of Jacob’s trouble to remove all evil from Israel prior to the Lord’s return.

Certain Christians today think that just because some Jews relocated back to God’s land that these people are already in God’s will and should be blessed. No, the facts are that they have been at war since they arrived and they are on their way to even greater and greater end time birth pains. With Israel surrounded by enemies we see the stage being set for all that was foretold by the prophets. The dreadful Day of the Lord is very near. Only after complete despair drives the Jews to seek God and God gives them grace and divine revelation about the Messiah they rejected will Israel repent and be blessed with spiritual rebirth. The return to the land of a portion of Israel just tells us what the prophets said is close at hand. So we should be warning all the unbelievers in Israel and everywhere else about what is coming to them if they do not accept Jesus Christ. We should not be giving Jews the curse of false security in their blind religion.