Jesus is not coming to rule the earth between 2012-2019
I am certain that this post will upset some people but with all the hype and speculation about Jesus coming between 2012-2019 the truth has to be said by someone. I will say dogmatically that Jesus is not coming to rule the earth between 2012-2019 as some Bible prophecy teachers are now saying.
First let me make it clear that I am not talking about the Rapture. The Rapture of the Church is not the second coming of Jesus Christ to rule the earth. The Rapture is always imminent and it can occur anytime even quite some time before the seven year tribulation. For example, Enoch as a type of Rapture was taken alive to heaven more than half a lifespan (of that era) before the flood judgment.
Some are actually saying that we have already entered the seven year tribulation. Other Bible prophecy teachers are saying that Russia is about to fulfill the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39 any minute now. Is any of this remotely possible? The answer is no. How can I be dogmatic about this. I will tell you why.
The reason why Jesus is not coming to earth in 2012-2019 to rule the earth is that if Jesus did come in this period there is no human way that Bible prophecy could be fulfilled literally as stated in the scriptures.
Contrary to what many are saying, Russia along with the tribes mentioned in Ezekiel 38 cannot realistically fulfill this prophecy within the next decade. Russia’s army today is not a mighty army it is really in pretty sad shape. Except for a few elite units the Russian army is very poorly equipped. Sure Russia has nuclear capabilities but it could not assemble “a great company a might army” “all splendidly attired” like is describe in Ezekiel to move against Israel. Even when moving against tiny Georgia the elite units of the Russian army were stealing the boots of the Georgian’s soldiers because they had none of their own. The alliances as described in Ezekiel are not even complete today. Turkey is still in NATO as I speak. It is not an ally of Russia but Turkey comes with Russia in the Ezekiel war.
For those few who think it is Turkey that is Gog and not Russia that nonsense does not fly either. Turkey today cannot even put down the Kurd’s yet be the leader from the uttermost parts of the north that invades Israel. Would the God of Israel then become known to the whole world as said in Ezekiel by destroying an invading army from Turkey? Israel could destroy this army by themselves they would not need God’s intervention to save them.
Israel today is not living in security like Ezekiel said they will be prior to the Gog invasion. Therefore, things have to radically change in the Middle East before the Ezekiel prophecy can even be fulfilled. You might wonder why the tribal nations surrounding Israel are also not mentioned in Ezekiel? Perhaps it is because they are occupied lands after the war of Psalm 83? So lets be realistic, the war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 could occur in a decade or so but it is not imminent. The Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecy cannot realistically take place as soon as some Bible prophecy teachers imply.
The only war mention in the Bible where everything is fully in place that can be fulfilled today is the one described in Psalm 83. In that war the nations surrounding Israel form a confederacy and try to cut off Israel from being a nation. We see that very alignment in the Middle East today. But there is no reason to think the war of Psalm 83 has to be in the tribulation. More likely the Psalm 83 war sets up the peace conditions that is necessary before the Ezekiel war can even be fulfilled.
Has anyone even considered that God has people to call out of the Muslim nations that are in bondage to Islam before the end times? Why should over a billion Muslims be totally excluded from hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ? I am suggesting that there will be a window of opportunity for these people to hear the gospel before the Antichrist is revealed. Just as there was a window of opportunity to hear the gospel by those in bondage under the old atheistic Soviet Union. So rather than expecting a Islamic Antichrist to get all Muslims to fight against the coming of Jesus Christ you probably would be on higher ground if you expected Islam to fall before the time that the Antichrist is even revealed.
As those that study Bible prophecy know, there will be an army of two hundred million from the Far East that will cause the deaths of a third of men on the earth. Does any rational thinking person believe that it is possible for anyone to field this army within a few years? China and India are rapidly developing nations but it will probably be about two decades before they could move such an army to the Middle East. Some see that China has two hundred million military aged men and think that makes it possible for them to fulfill this prophecy today. But you cannot move an army that size to the Middle East without supply lines and support . China today only has an army of a few million. If it even tried fielding twenty percent of that two hundred million army today everyone in China would soon be in starvation and the nation would collapse.
Besides, the Bible gives us a clue. It says that this army was prepared for a hour, a day, a month, and a year. In other words this army was prepared for a specific time on earth. I do not think it is mere speculation to say that much of this prepared army is made up of surplus men caused by China’s one child policy and the birth control and infanticide practices of China and other far east nations. These surplus men began to be born about 1980 when China started this one child policy and if you do the math the surplus men of military age (with no hope of a normal family life) will peak in numbers about 2030-2040. That is the most likely time when this army prepared for a hour, a day, a month, and a year will march to the Middle East. By that date China and India will be world superpowers and they will have the military capabilities and populations to support and move such huge numbers of men to the Middle East. That prophecy is simply not going to be fulfilled within the next decade.
We might also use a little rational thinking about the Mark of the Beast Economic System. We know the Bible tells us that no one can buy or sell without it. To have such a world economic system you would also need a world communications system that will reach everywhere on earth and you would also have to have the electronic scanning systems in all market place. We see the world is moving toward such a system today but what is described is not possible within one decade even if the world were to make an all out effort beginning today. Much of the world still does not even have the necessary electrical communications for such a system. The communication system therefore most likely would have to be a worldwide satellite system or a very long range over-the-air system or an ultra low frequency through-the-earth system. That kind of buy or sell system is simply not going to be developed and in place worldwide within the 2012- 2019 time frame.
If Jesus is coming in 2012-2019 where are the ten leaders that give their power to the Beast before the little horn even rises among them? Things in Europe or the world can change rapidly under conditions of war but I sincerely doubt that even the woman riding the Beast, described in Revelation, can be in her position on the Beast in a few years.
If you really take all the prophecies about Babylon in a literal sense the city of Babylon has to be rebuilt. There are plans underway to make Babylon a international center but Babylon is not going to be anything earth shattering within the next decade.
I know some insist that the Church will be in the tribulation and that the tribulation will start before or during this 2012-2019 period but I am glad I never got a invitation to their tribulation party. I think these people are going to have to wait at least another decade to taste what they seek to find in the tribulation (if God allows) because Jesus is not coming to rule the earth within their 2012-2019 deadline.
Having said that, I am not saying that things will not get real nasty in the world even before the tribulation especally for those living fat and happy in the United States.
Date posted: Thursday, September 10th, 2009 3:59 pm | Under category: Bible prophecy teachers, Second Coming, Tribulation period, discernment
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Don, you make good points however how do you know when Jesus is or is not coming?
Did you ever think that the prophecies of Ezekiel you quote do not refer to our day/age but could have been fulfilled long ago before our time? Same with Revelations and other prophecies. There are convincing arguments to say that Jesus will just return and the end of the age will just be.
Jesus could simply decide to come back now and set up his Kingdom, end of story.
Its debatable, gray area, that there will be a literal “tribulation” 7 yr period. Its debatable that there will even be a “rapture”. These things are not dogmatic IMHO. of course, this is my view. You could be right but only Jesus knows.
I am not saying that I think dogmatically either way (I see your points as being possibly valid as well) but I have read articles/books that seem to prove both. We must keep intact the primary thing we all do agree on….Salvation by the Blood of Christ only.
hey don very interesting well written article. this makes a whole lot of sense especially the part about the 200 million man army mostly made up of Chinese soldiers. i heard china was stopping the one child policy in 2010. i could be wrong but that is what i heard. if that is true then you are right there is only a small time frame that there will be a huge surplus of military age men that cannot have a family. i love your website and i am fascinated with bible prophecy. i try to tell this to people but they don’t want to listen.
Eric, My website and Blog teaches on Bible Prophecy from a premillennial literal exegesis. So why would you expect me to just post articles on what everyone in Christianity agrees on? There is more to talk about in Christianity than just Salvation by the blood of Christ. Almost one third of the Bible is Bible prophecy and 1/6th is prophecy not yet fulfilled.
As for Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 happening in history, that theory does not hold water. It never happened in history and the prophecy itself says it will happen in the latter years. Only a preterist would say that Revelation and other prophecies about future judgment happened in the past and even they would take the restoration passages and spiritualize them to the Church. They are a fringe minority in Christianity and full preterists are heretical. The details in the prophecies simply do not fit any history recorded. I do not know where you find your convincing arguments?
Your idea that Jesus could simply come back and set up his Kingdom and not fulfill the scriptures that speak about the days just before His Kingdom does not come from any reading of the prophetic scriptures. Bible prophecy may be a gray area to you but it is plain as day to people who believe in premillennial theology. We may have some different views on how prophecies will be literally fulfilled among ourselves but we know that the prophecy will be fulfilled in a very literal sense as the prophets conveyed in their message.
I suggest you do a little more reading of what the prophets actually said in the Bible because until you know the real details in context you will be swayed by any wind of doctrine and book that can string a few scriptures together out of context to support some aberrant theology. There is only one way to take prophetic scripture and that is the way Jesus took it, quoted it and fulfilled it. Jesus already fulfilled 1/6 of Bible prophecy and it was fulfilled just as the prophets foretold. The prophecies about the Lord’s second coming will also be literally fulfilled as stated but that in no way rules out the use of literary tools in the prophecy. God expects people given a normal brain to understand figures of speech.
By the way premillennial theology is not a debatable point on this blog. It is the theology that I believe and it is the only eschatological position that will be promoted on my website and blog.
You ask, “How do I know Jesus is not coming in 2012-2019. If I did not think I did not have good argument from a premillennial theology view point I would have not wrote the article?
HI Jim,
You are correct it has been China’s intention to stop this imbalance of births of males and females by 2010. For 3 decades 6 males have been born for every 5 females. That would make the youngest of the surplus males reach military age about 2025- 2030 and those born when it started in the early 80’s when it started would be over 60 by 2040 and too old to serve. That tells me the army of surplus men born for a specific time will peak between 2025 and 2040. I lean toward 2030 – 2035 for when they march.
Don,
So why would you expect me to just post articles on what everyone in Christianity agrees on? (When did I ever “expect” you to post other articles? Just because I am challenging you on your doctrine doesn’t mean I expect you to post other articles)
There is more to talk about in Christianity than just Salvation by the blood of Christ. Almost one third of the Bible is Bible prophecy and 1/6th is prophecy not yet fulfilled. (I am not stupid, don’t you think I know this as well. I never said there was not other things other than Salvation. I am just saying, Don you are not 100% accurate with your view here on prophecy)
They are a fringe minority in Christianity and full preterists are heretical. The details in the prophecies simply do not fit any history recorded. I do not know where you find your convincing arguments? (I am not a preterist either. I just can see that Jesus/God will be doing whatever he wants to do, your in no place to tell the world that He is not coming to rule the world between 2012-2019. I appreciate your blog/postings/ and perspective and it is educational to read and gets us to think)
Bible prophecy may be a gray area to you but it is plain as day to people who believe in premillennial theology. (Don, Christians who don’t believe completely in premillenial theology are not heretics or in error, this line and the other one before this seem to insinuate that. I know many who don’t hold to this who are very Godly people)
I suggest you do a little more reading of what the prophets actually said in the Bible because until you know the real details in context you will be swayed by any wind of doctrine and book that can string a few scriptures together out of context to support some aberrant theology. (I have done extensive reading for both perspectives, I personally tend to side more with Premillenial theology, in fact if a gun was to my head I would say that is what I believe however I am just taking issue with your dogmatic statement on how you know Jesus will not come between this year or that year)
By the way premillennial theology is not a debatable point on this blog. It is the theology that I believe and it is the only eschatological position that will be promoted on my website and blog. (I wasn’t debating your theology although I can see how you thin that, I am debating your statement about knowing that Jesus will not come between the dates you stated.)
You ask, “How do I know Jesus is not coming in 2012-2019. If I did not think I did not have good argument from a premillennial theology view point I would have not wrote the article?(I still think confidently that you don’t know what The Lord is or isn’t going to do. I think you did a great job explaining your theology but we simply don’t know about these dates)
I gave you the reasons why I think the second coming is not likely to happen between 2012-2019 in the article. Whither my arguments have merit or not is up to the reader.
By the way, I never at all said that those who do not believe in premillennial theology are heretics. The only thing I said was that full preterists are heretics. Obviously there are many true believers who are not premillennial and still within accepted belief positions of Christianity but I still do believe they are in error. I do not like to use the term heretic for those in error on the non essentials of the faith because so many people now equate heresy with apostasy.
So If you think I am wrong about this then within premillennial theology and its arguments tell us how you think the Lord could come between 2012-2019 and still fulfill premillennial theology? (we are talking about the second coming not the Rapture). It is not going to do much good to just say premillennial theology does not have to be correct when you are on a blog that promotes premillennial theology as biblical truth. So I am ready for some good premillennial theology arguments why Jesus can come between 2012-2019 and still literary fulfill all prophecy in the premillennial understanding of it.
(You might also consider that If I used a title like the following and said “I really do not see how Jesus could come between 2012-2019 and still fulfill premillennial theology” none would find this post through a Google search but saying as I did “Jesus is not coming” in the title just put me in the sixth position in Goggle for anyone searching such a term. It also put me in the number one position for the term (Jesus is coming in 2012-2019) When you use titles on blog articles you have to word them so people will actually find them and you also have to repeat the keyword phrases several times in the article.)
Not having anything to do with the Mayan 2012 craziness, I think it is still possible for between 2012-2019. I say this because if the gov’t gets control of healthcare-which they are about to do-things will happen more rapidly. They already have control of the monetary system, the banks, international commerce and finance,and soon healthcare. The world religion part of the system will not be instituted until AFTER the rapture. Discuss. LOL.
I simply do not know how Christians get the idea that Bible prophecy and the timing of the second coming is all about the United States?
If the second coming is between 2012-2019, how do you explain the issues that I brought up that I say cannot be fulfilled today in this short period of time as it is described in Bible prophecy?
I not once mentioned the United States in my post. In order for the mark to be implemented, gov’t’s need to have control of healthcare. Control of the healthcare system is basically the control of every human being in the world. That is already the case in the developed countries, except the US. The Rapture and the second coming are 2 separate events.
All I am saying is that it is a possibility, to wit because of the rapidity of events. And my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with the Mayan mess.
Health care could be just one of many things that could help develop part of the database for such a system. Nevertheless, there are no world databases set up today for this to be even remotely possible for many years. Nor is there the communications. More likely this whole system first comes into being from a electronic rationing management system that is set up by the West in a world war and a time of great famine on the earth. Then after the Beast arrives on the scene the False prophet takes this electronic system with its world databases of information on everyone and everything that is already in place and uses it to force people to swear allegiance to the Beast/Antichrist.
hey don i was thinking about how many people think the world will end in 2012. maybe this is partially correct. lets say that in 2012 that nuclear war breaks out for some reason or an EMP attack on the USA occurs. this will either way bring terrible destruction to pretty much the whole world. what if the rapture happens right after the attacks? The world will think that the radiation or the electromagnetic pulse caused the disappearance of so many people. this may be helped by some demonic apparitions. i know that you think 2032 is around the time of the second coming well 2012 is 20 years before that. it is half a generation. you said that Enoch was taken to heaven half a generation before the flood so it makes some sense. this is also why some people give up waiting for Jesus just as you said before. this will also give the Obama administration a reason to stay in power and bring about a socialist Marxist regime to the USA and probably the rest of the world. this is just a theory of mine let me know what you think of it.
I think that is very possible, we do not know when the Rapture will occur. Its been my theory that things will get so bad on earth that many will believe that they lived through the tribulation and that is why they will be so eager to seek a counterfeit Christ. I do not buy the radiation theory. I think it will be more likely that some will say the negative thinking people brought this war on the world and that they had to be removed to another dimension before the “New Age” of peace and safety could come in.
I am having a really bad day, and could use a rapture out of this place!!
OK, now that I got THAT off my chest:
Don, I think your last point was most interesting. I often think of the people who are blind to all that is going on today, but can’t imagine how much harder it will be after the rapture. I really believe that the only people who will become saved during the tribulation are those who have been taught about Jesus, and especially prophecy. Sometimes I think the greatest gift we can give the hard-hearted believer is the knowledge of the events coming their way. God wishes that none shall perish, and I believe that only the people who have some biblical knowledge given them by Christians may actually have a chance to convert.
Who knows for how much longer His Word will even be available in the written form? Someday I may have to share the gospel and prophecy from my memory (God help me). Makes me cling tighter to my bible, and my discipline of reading, and to spend more time comitting to memory the precious Word of God. Food for thought.
As for the timeline, I have reached the point where I don’t really care one way or the other. Which is kindof funny because initially that is what drew me to your site. I have just reached the point where I think I believe I am living close to end times but then, from what I gather, so did many of the early church. Where would my Salvation be today if they had sat ’round on their rears waiting for His Second Coming?
If you want some good insight into how things ‘may’ go down, read “For Many Shall Come In My Name” by Ray Yungen and “Faith Undone” by Roger Oakland. Great books about the New Age/Contemplative/Emergent mess !
Don, I think you put, overall, a very solid logical format together. Those who criticize you are possibly uneducated to some degree on the things you speak. I think we all have to have a great deal of knowledge about what you are saying to understand why you’ve come to your conclusions. You simply don’t have the space, in writing, to expand endlessly on these subjects. But for a summary – BRAVO! I too think some well-meaning prophecy guys have gotten a little taken away with Islam and the Islamic antichrist, and some are the same ones who now dismiss that Gog/Magog is vastly different than armageddon. Unfortunately, with some of the topics coming to light, not that they are so damaging to the faith, but everyone is looking for a new edge on prophecy instead of holding tight, taking in the information, understanding it in light of God’s Word and giving some real answers rather than just more hypothetical nonsense that is backed by a new understanding of God’s Word. Many may misinterpret that statement that I’m inferring nothing new can be understood, but I’m not. Let’s just say, I think people try to apply the reality of our day, with our present lack of total understanding with where the prophecies are truly leading. When they are fulfilled, we will know without a shadow of a doubt. Don, as for a quick summary on these topics, I think this is pretty sound. Granted, as you and I know, at the speed things are moving today, we may be surprised at how fast some of the things you mentioned can be assembled, implemented, and lead to fulfillment. Let’s all continue to be faithful to the Gospel, do His work, and let Him worry about timing. Another good article, Don!
I agree, and also check out Oakland’s writings on the likely Marian deceptions
For those who want more detail I wrote a 25 article series on my website on how all world trends and the signs of the time now correlate to indicate that Jesus will return in two or three decades. (I am not talking about the rapture or the start of the tribulation that is likely to occur at least seven years soon)
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/reason%20why%20we%20are%20in%20the%20last%20days.htm
Eric, about your initial comment, your stating that a literal 7 year tribulation period as a gray area is very unfounded in light of Daniel’s 70 weeks. That prophecy specifically gives us the criteria of what God desires to deal with Israel regarding their disobedience, the appearance of the Messiah, and God’s final judgment of that nation, and their acceptance of the Messiah. This is no gray area, and is a 7 year period yet to find final fulfillment, and will, at its end, usher in the Millenial reign of Christ. Jesus will not just return and the end of the age come into existence. There are very specific signs that Jesus spoke of, Daniel spoke of, and the Apostle Paul spoke about before that coming. And to say that there will be no rapture is dismissing Paul’s explanation of the event in Corinthians and Thessalonians. The Bible isn’t some allegorical book. Whatever “books” you’ve read about the Bible and it’s matter of fact accounts of what will be and what they have debated about what is literal and is not should be discarded. The Bible is generally always taken in a literal sense. To set the book of Revelation as an exception is to miss what the LORD Himself spoke about regarding these things, and others under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. To say some of these things are gray areas or doubtful is ridiculous. And to reply that you hold primarily to Premillenial theology and they say prior that the rapture is debatable and a 7 year literal time of false peace and the great tribulation is a gray area doesn’t add up.
Doug,
I have read scholarly books that promote both views by Christians that are not heretics or in error with the basic Christian doctrines. All I am saying is that it might not be as clear cut as you all make it out to be or what your saying. For years I was dogmatic about Premillenial and to a degree still am (even though you say that doesn’t add up).
I recently read that the original Acts Church (the people who were around when Jesus was and also the Apostles) did not hold fast to a Premillenial view at all. They believed in one resurrection, one return of Christ, (2nd coming) to the earth (no rapture). I can see how that is as well. I can forward these articles but they are in a series of emails and are very long. These were done by a very godly man I know and all are supported with Scripture. I find that many times peoples views of Prophecy are based on how THEY interpret Scripture.
We simply don’t know for a fact how/when/where Jesus will return. I can see how Premillenial is possibly right but also can see how the other argument can be right. I still contend these are gray areas in the Bible that we must not get divided over or insult people’s intelligence over (like insinuating that people who don’t hold to this view are somehow uneducated). We all can debate with each other but many times I sense people take things personally and almost get angry at someone because they challenge their views. No need to get personal. That is just the tone I pick up from some. I try not to get personal-disrespectful and if I do, please call me out on it.
With Prophecy it should not impact the way we treat or talk to each other. I guess part of me wishes and is hopeful that God would not allow such horrific suffering and bloodshed that we picture when we talk about the Tribulation or time of wrath. Why wouldn’t He simply come back and separate the sheep from the goats and be done with this Church age? Now I am sure you all will debate me on all these points so feel free. We should hold fast to the imminent return of Christ and wait in expectation that he could come even today.
Don, at risk of sounding patronizing, I agree whole heartedly with your article. I would agree that the rapture of the church is imminent and I anxiously await it.
The Ezekiel 38 & 39 prophecy has always fascinated me. Especially the aftermath. Ezekiel spends the next nine chapters describing the temple and Israels worship of their God. A destruction of enemies as described by Ezekiel in 38 & 39, combined I believe, with the social economic colapse of America would create a power vacum and utterly change the face of the world political power. USA and Russia, while still probably existing would have little political power to enact ideals. Thus creating an opening for an organized Europe to lead the nations of the world. A unified Europe, under a respected leader, would be looked to in order to bring needed stability to a rapidly chaotic situation.
The first course of business would be to insure that the recent war between Israel and Russia and her allies never happen again. And, in my opinion, insure that Israel, imbued with a new sense of God ordained superiority, agree not to attack other nations. I.E, that the peace treaty would be to protect the world from Israel as opposed to the other way around.
I mean realistically, what bargaining positions are the Arabs going to be in? They have just been basically absolutly destroyed! The islamic position has always to negotiate a peace or accord in order to regroup and attack again later. Much as satan did with Jesus when he withdrew for a season, backing off, looking for a new opening from which to attack.
Furthermore, what if the Babylon mentioned in Rev 17 & 18 describes an actual revival of Babylon in Iraq? A social economic colapse of America might welcome a disconnect from the UN. They do after all recieve about 50% of their funding from the USA. A stable Iraq could present the UN with an attractive alternative for world headquarters. Imagine the UN taking on the responsibility of oversight of the new Iraqi oil production. The wealth that could be obtained boggles the mind. I believe Rev 17 describes such wealth centralized under one evil organization. Surely such an organization would wield much power and influence.
Just speculation on my part. I would agree however with your post. The piece’s are just now being arranged for the final game and it will take some time.
The original Acts church was recorded in the book of Acts and in the letters by Jesus to the churches in Revelation. Anyone can write anything about what the early church believed after that and they do. However, there was already heresy in the early Church so finding something that supports one’s theology today can usually be disputed with other writings. Even if there was some common beliefs in much of the early church it does not mean the early church was correct. By 96 AD Jesus through John already had harsh things to say to 5 of the 7 church types on earth.
We know that people’s view of Bible prophecy is based on how they interpret Scripture, that is obvious. However, there is only one correct interpretation of Bible prophecy and that correct interpretation is not making prophecy allegorical and then subjectively applying these passages to the Church. I wrote a long article on this.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/amillennial.HTM
The Bible really does tells us how and where Jesus will return. The only thing we do not know is when.
I agree that we should not insult each other and there is no lack of intelligence even among atheists. The problem is not one of intelligence it is in correct understanding and discernment of scriptures. The root problem here is that they interpret the Bible so that it will fit their succession theology where the Church becomes the continuation of Israel or even the replacement of Israel instead of just taking the prophecies literally and especially when literally about a literal physical nation on earth called Israel or Jacob. The detailed words of the prophets actually make little sense if taken allegorically. Let’s face it, many today just cannot get past the views of the allegorical Alexandrian heretics when it come to prophetic passages in the Bible. Augustine retained allegorical interpretations of prophetic passages even after he rejected the allegorical interpretations for the others. That error has now been passed down through the ages. Nevertheless, it is still error. It also was an understandable error because the Church could not see how these passages could be literally fulfilled in their time. However, today with Israel in the Land surrounded by enemies the literal fulfillment becomes quite obvious.
God has a purpose for the tribulation. It all comes because people on earth reject God’s anointed King to rule the earth and accept Satan’s counterfeit. The tribulation is a trial for all people on earth to determine who they will choose. In a sense it is a taste of hell on earth so that people will not choose that fate for eternity.
Good observations. I read somewhere that Iraq probably has more oil in the ground than Saudi Arabia. I have little doubt that the UN will pull out of New York before long. Also why are we building the largest embassy complex in the world in tiny Iraq? Is it really going to be used for something other than a U.S. embassy?
It is starting to look to me like Iran is going to get the surprise of their life very soon. They are underestimating the capabilities of Israel. Iran will not be a major factor in the Middle East for quite some time after the attack, What if Israel and a westernize secularized Iraq actually became allies for awhile before the Ezekiel war?
Agreed. Iran is like the little loud mouthed brother that only has power because his older brother is a bully (Russia). I do know however, if you go into their yard and punch the little brother in the mouth while the big brother ain’t around, the big brother ain’t gonna be happy. One need only understand just how much Putin has done to undermine stability in that part of the world. But all will recieve their just do. Praise be to God.
Yeah, why are we building the biggest embassy in the world in Iraq?
I’m reminded of the old Ray Stevens song saying ” I’m not going to get married again. Every 10 years or so I’m just going to find a woman I hate and buy her a house.”
Good ridance UN!
Iran’s Big brother remembers the days when he was all pumped up and the big bully on the block but he recently got sick and lost most of his muscles. Now he is recovering and trying to pump up again and will not stop until he looks like Hulk Hogan. Then he will come down to kick butt on tiny Israel but he will never be big enough to fight Israel’s Father.
Absolutly true! One thing about a bully, even when he gets sick, he just won’t shut up until somebody bigger shuts him up.
I know this is off topic for this post but I’m always amazed at what I call the “feminization of america.” Now don’t get me wrong ladies, I believe beyond the shadow of a doubt that females are the superior beings. But I digress. Boy I’ve probably opened a can of worms now.
I will now shut up.
I apoligize for my last few testosterone laced posts. I will try harder to stay on topic next time.
Good day.
The feminization of the Church is an issue much closer to home.
I am NOT anonymous!! I must have really had a bad day yesterday.
I have enjoyed the comments back and forth, and never cease to be amazed at how adamantly some will pursue their point of view. A little too much testosterone, and its not Ken who is the culprit. BTW Ken, please let me respond for my gender: I for one agree with your viewpoint, and Don’s. We women have a purpose, but running the show is not one of them. I was telling a young male friend of my daughter’s that the story of Eve should serve as a reminder of why it is we should approach both husband and God with all the things going ’round our heads. It is a hard lesson for most females I know to get. Unfortunately, it has been the failure of men to step up and be men that has helped put us all in this position. I speak from personal experience here, but not bitterly of course
I cannot separate myself from Eve’s story: I know if I did not seek a place to be with my Heavenly father and/or husband boy, can I eat some yucky fruit 
I am not afraid to disagree with Don, but do not care if I am put in my place, especially when it comes to what I feel vs. what I believe. I am definately not patronizing when I say thanks Don for sticking to your guns, so to speak. You have helped me grow. I continue to give thanks for you (and your wife) and your ministry.
God Bless!!
Thank you very much Betty!
Jesus is not returning. The reason why he is not returning is because the Messiah hasn’t come yet. I don’t believe that the Rapture is coming either. I think Revelation was really written by the Romans and acredited to John. I mean I know the Romans wrote it.
God has a message for you. It is about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. The message is this:
In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my Life. In the evening I die, death.
Gods messanger, Melanie
Melanie, I’d hold off on the whole “God’s Messenger” bit because at the end of Revelation there is a warning from Christ regarding those who add or reduce the prophecy. And remember, all prophecy has to with the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Don’t know what planet you just beamed down from, but if you don’t think Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, and you are going to try preaching another gospel that is no Gospel at all, and believe in another way that leads to eternal life, when it does not since life is found only in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, you are seriously mislead, deceived, and in danger of perishing eternally should you be called into account by Almighty God. I hope you are being sarcastic.
Melanie,
Christianity offers and believes many proofs that the Messiah has come. If you do not wish to believe Christian proofs display your own scholarly proofs to dispute what we claim? To say the Messiah has not yet come logically means that you admit that a Messiah will come. So we do agree on something.
Now learn about Jesus of Nazareth by study of the New Testament and after learning about what Jesus taught and did tell us how a good man could do the works that Jesus did and and not come from God? Then you might realize that if Jesus came from God and also claimed to be the Messiah He would be a liar and a fraud if He was not. So either make the tree good or evil. How do the good works of Jesus come from a man of evil? How does one raise people from the dead if they are evil? How does one rise from the dead and be seen by hundreds if they are evil? Actually, some Jews did want to believe that Good was evil and they had Him crucified. But the truth is that this Jesus they crucified is the only Messiah that God will ever send to save those on earth dead in their sins. He was sent to die so others that believe in God’s righteousness to save displayed in the life and death of Jesus can live.
Those of Israel who choose not to accept their Messiah reaped the fate seen in history since they had Jesus Crucified. If they do not accept Jesus in the near future they will reap the fate that the prophets foretold would occur to Israel in these last days.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/theonlyway.HTM
As for Revelation. The early Church would have exposed the book of Revelation as a fraud if it was not written by John. They did this with many books written by liars. But seriously, read Revelation for yourself and still tell me that the Romans made it up. The Romans would have no reason to do so and they would not have the knowledge of the Jewish scriptures to write a Book with such Old Testament symbolology and knowledge of Heaven and God. The Romans would not even have the science fiction skills to create such a book
So lets really be honest. You do not believe Jesus is coming because you choose not to believe what God said or you are just ignorant. It is not that there is not enough proof to believe.
The Old Testament prophesies concerning Jesus Christ are the ultimate proofs. The O.T. states that Christ would be born in Bethlehem, be a Nazarene, be called out of Egypt, etc etc. This is why the mean old nasty Devil has to fool people with the anti-christ someday. Always something close, but not quite. LOL.
Jubilees 23:15 good person may live 3 score and 10, strong person 4 score, this was right after Abraham died, God changed how long man lived.
Matt 24 I assure you this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place.
Israel became a nation in 1948.
1948+70=2018-7(trib years)=2011 or 1948+80=2028-7(trib years)
Rapture can happen anywhere from 2011 to 2021.
These are my calculations so I continue to pray for my family and friends to believe and talk to them as much as I can. I have a niece who says she is an atheist and I would appreciate it if everyone out there would pray for her and her fiance (he is also athiest)
Thank you.
The Rapture can happen today it is always imminent and it does not have to occur seven years before the end.
As for your 2018 or 2028 date projection when everything is fulfilled, I see you arrived at that by taking one passage that is talking about the lifespan of man and applying it to a parable talking about a generation that would not pass away until all they see that Jesus talked about is fulfilled. Did babies and young children see the creation of the state of Israel? So is it really talking about 70 or 80 years? Also why could not the date be from when Jerusalem became the capitol of Israel in 1967? That would mean that it would not have to be all completed before 2037 or 2047 by your same theory.
Van Impe, Lindsay and others used this same parable to set the 1988 date thinking because they were sure a biblical generation was 40 years. Then it was fifty. Then Jack Van Impe came up with his “brilliant” 51.4285 year generation theory by dividing 2160 years by the 42 generations from Abraham to Christ to find the length of a generation and then he adding 51.4 to 1967.? to come up with 2019. So the Rapture has to occur before 2012 according to Jack “but he is not setting dates”.
That parable also might not even be saying what some think it is saying. Jesus might really have just said the generation seeing the signs He talked about would not pass away until all is fulfilled and the fig tree parable is illustrating this truth and is about the signs and the season of His return not about Israel at all. Who knows? Anyway, what are the ” putting forth leaves” in this fig tree parable? Few address that? Has Israel today put forth leaves? So really this kind of application of scripture to try to arrive at a date is very problematic at best.
The Rapture, then 7-year tribulation period, then millennial reign of Christ.
Okay Frank, but what in the world are you responding to?
“putting forth leaves” I believe is the Jews going back to Israel in the end times, and from what I have read they are going back by the planeful.
As I said these are my calculations and as it says, no one knows the hour or day.
I believe God will remove his church before the 7 year tribulation. I don’t expect everyone to believe what I believe but I think it is good people can discuss things.
As for starting from 1967 I am searching.
Great post concerning many key pieces and players that have to be lined up. I don’t know all the details concerning the Middle East and China, but Babylon is a key issue, and as I read the scriptures it’s clear to me that Babylon must be rebuilt, to completely fulfill the prophecies from Isaiah and Jeremiah (and Rev. 18) concerning its destruction. True, Babylon is currently being rebuilt (as a commercial tourist center, from what I’ve read), but that means it would take several years more for it to fully develop.
One question and uncertainty I have concerns China and the surplus men. A friend spends a great deal of time on Skype, chatting with many foreigners, including Chinese. He knows many 20-something Chinese (born after 1980) who come from multiple-child families and who say that the one-child policy is really not that big of a deal, something fairly easy to get around; the policy is often waived for a small fee, and certainly not something uniformly enforced at all times and all places in China. So are there really that many surplus men for China’s army, men who can’t find a wife either in China or elsewhere such as in the U.S.? Just wondering; I haven’t studied it that much.
The surplus men are real. This has have been reported on major media. Even China admits the problem and plans to bring the male and female births back into balance by 2010. There is a difference between better off people in China getting around the one child policy today and the documented surplus men. Those Chinese that can afford modern electronics are not representative of the bulk of the rural Chinese population. If I recall correctly, the surplus males of military age today already are in the tens of millions.
This quote was from a ABC news investigation a few years ago it is a secular non religious news story.
“Today, as ultrasound machines have become readily available, China has seen an epidemic of sex-selection abortions — so many, that the ratio of males to females in parts of China has been thrown wildly out of kilter.
For every 100 girls born here, there used to be about 105 boys. Now, roughly 120 boys are born for every 100 girls.
It’s an imbalance that some believe will have dire consequences for the future.
“You’re going to have millions of men who have no stable family life of their own,” says Adrienne Germain of the International Women’s Health Organization. “And the frustration and the alienation that comes from that situation can lead a lot of boys and men into broader community violence.”
Already, there are so-called bachelor villages cropping up in rural China, populated almost entirely by unemployed men.
Officials say millions of female births have probably gone unreported in recent years. No one knows how many of those babies may have been abandoned or killed.
Chinese leaders are well aware of the problem. They have recently relaxed the one-child policy to allow some in the countryside to have extra children. They’ve also banned doctors from revealing the sex of a fetus during ultrasound screening. And they’ve launched campaigns that emphasize the important status of women in Chinese society.”
Hi Don,
Thank you for studying the Scriptures enough to post like this. It’s appreciated and respected.
I have a question for you but first let me say that I was raised in church. I’m now in my 30’s and I know very little about prophecy. I’m learning more now by studying the Bible and by absorbing from those who know way more than I. With that said, I am just shocked at what I do not no concerning prophecy. I know so little. It’s almost embarrassing.
So here comes my question which may sound very ignorant to some. You mentioned that the Rapture of the church could occur quite some time before the Tribulation. I was always under the impression that the moment the church is called out, boom, the tribulation period begins. Is this not the case?
Thanks for any wisdom on the matter…I’m terribly confused.
Your welcomed Dee,
Many do assume that right after the Rapture the last seven years starts for Israel. I will not say that they are wrong but I will not say they are correct either the Bible does not say what they imply. This really comes from educated but subjective reasoning. When I said “quite some time” I was not suggesting a long period of time but it is possible that the Rapture could be months, years, or even a decade or two before the actually second coming. I lean toward 10.5 years.
Most think it will start immediately because they think the Church will be raptured and then God will immediately finish the last week of years appointed for Israel. They say once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God turns back to Israel. This is correct, but does the fullness of the Gentiles come in at the pre-trip Rapture or is the fullness only complete after the persecution at the fifth seal in Revelation? It is my conjecture that God actually starts dealing with the Jews for the last seven years after the sealing of the 144,000 Jews. Nothing in Revelation says that God is dealing with Jews in the first seals, the length of time of these seal events may also be unknown. The seals could be the beginning of sorrows that Jesus was talking about. I also think that Jesus make it clear in his letters to the seven church types in Revelation that only one of the four churches on earth at the time of the end would be worthy to escape the great trial on earth. That is all those people identified with Philadelphia.
For more of my reasoning on this it is fully explained in my Revelation Commentary Some might say that the Church will have a seven year preparation in heaven before the marriage. I do not deny that but I am saying the seven years does not begin when Enoch (Church type) is taken it begins when God’s judgments actually start on earth. Not at the seals but at the trumpet and vial judgments.
I am not dogmatic about my timing of events and I do not think anyone else can be dogmatic about it either. It is only a theory that the Bride of Christ is completed at the Rapture. Others may still come in until the door is closed and the wedding actually takes place before the Father in heaven. Although this saying might not even apply here the first may be last and the last be first.
Good post Don.. I’m new to your site and will hang around reading the other articles. I think your reasoning is valid, but to be honest I pray to god its not..
I really long to go home and I pray nightly that the rapture will come *NOW*… I know that the 7 year tribulation doesn’t have to start immediately after the rapture, but I tend to think that it will not be a long period afterwards, which means if your thoughts are correct then the rapture will be a fair while away.
My reasoning for a shorter period between rapture and Tribulation relates to my understanding of the various bible ages. At the moment we are in the age of grace and my understanding is that this will finish at the rapture. At that point the interrupted 490 year age will recommence.. which implies back to an age of law keeping. Given that that can only go for seven years, what would be the age between the cessation of the age of grace and the recommencement of the age of law?
Either way I agree with earlier posts to an extent.. the timing is not important to our salvation, and we should strive to treat each other as Jesus would and debate with civilitiy and an ernest expectation and hope of his return.
Blessings
Welcomed to the site Wayne,
My conjecture is that the Rapture is a few months to 3.5 years before the final seven years appointed for the Jews. I do not see that as a long time. I agree with there being an age of grace in order for the Gentiles to come in but I am not sure it ends at the first seal of Revelation like most say.
I am really saying that I think most of the seven seals occur before the seven year period left to complete the 490 year transgression of the Jews. Why do the first seals of Revelation have to be in the final seven years when the Jews are not even mentioned in Revelation until after the sixth seal? The fifth seal is talking about persecution on the Church.
9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Thanks Don.. You are quite right that the first six seals could well be opened prior to the tribulation. I have read “Red Moon Rising” by Peter Goodgame who basically postulates the same thing, and his reasoning is logical and quite compelling. He believes that that the seals commenced to be opened in WWII and that the birthpangs described by Jesus are in fact the openings of the first 5 seals. I’m not sure if I am 100% convinced, but my mind is open to all possibilities.
I’m interested in your conjecture of a gap of a few months to 3.5 years.. What makes you come up with those figures? Especially the 3.5 year value.
I’ve been a christian all my life, initially growing up in an exclusive cult style church, and ended up drifting away from the lord, but in the last 12 to 18 months the father has given me a huge hunger to understand prophecy and his plans for us.. I don’t know why this is.. But I know I want to absorb all possible knowledge and different points of view to give myself a rounded view of the events to come.
Thanks in advance Don.
Here is my conjecture. After a time when there will be a great war on earth (probably the Ezekiel 38 Gog war). The world will believe that they survived the biblical tribulation and be expecting some concept of Christ to appear seven years after it started. They will expect hims to bring in a new age and be saying peace and safety. But when this fake Christ goes into the Temple of God and stands in the place where he ought not, the real judgments of God will begin on the earth and Israel must flee to the mountains.
Israel is burning the weapons of the Ezekiel Gog war for 7 years after God’ destroys the Gog army. Why exactly seven years? Because the Jews have to flee to the mountains seven years after the end of the Gog war.
The theory that the seals and judgments span more than just 7 years also answers the question why some who knew the Lord was due to come fell asleep waiting or went out and started treating their servants badly thinking the lord delayed His coming.
All these things conjectures are more fully explained in my Revelation Commentary.
Hey Don do you think the Gog and Magog war will be a world war or just a war against israel? It seems you think then most likely that the rapture will happen at the end of this war? Another question i have is when did the end times start? it seems to me that world war 2 kicked things off. i read your article of why the last generation doesn’t have to start when israel was created, but 70 or 80 years from then Jesus will most likely of come back anyway. All the signs point to a time roughly around 2020-2040. All i know is that i and many other true Christians have this sense that Jesus is coming soon. Maybe this sense was given by God to let us know when time is getting short. Also i was wondering if you ever read or heard about the book 23 minutes in hell? i actually believe that the book is true. the reason i bring this up is that the guy that wrote the book said that Jesus told him he is coming back very very soon.let me know what you think about all these things
Jim,
I think the Ezekiel 38 war will involved at least 9 nations and they will come against Israel and God will end it. I also think there will be a totally different world war against radical Islam that will set up conditions in the world for the Western Antichrist to come to power (the regional war of Psalm 83 may or may not occur within this larger war).
When does the end times start? Actually the last days started almost two thousand years ago according to scripture. Seventy or eighty years from 1948 when Israel became a modern state is 2018-2028. I would not say the literal second coming of Jesus to earth is likely before then anyway as you implied. People have thought that Jesus was coming soon for a very long time that does not mean that it will now occur within two decades. It did not occur for the people who were sure Jesus was coming in 1988 and 2000 etc.
AS for “23 days in hell” book and all such private revelations I put no stock in them. I do not know if you realize it but you just used circular reasoning in your last statement. You say Jesus is coming soon so then someone that also tells people that Jesus is coming soon has written a book that is true.
Dr. Richard Ebby also did the Christian charismatic circuits for about thirty years with a message that he died and went to hell and that he was sent back to warn people not to go there. In his message he said that Jesus told him He would not die again before he returned. Richard Ebby has now been dead for a number of years.
If I had to be pinned down to a time when I think all the trends indicate that Jesus is coming to establish His kingdom on earth. I would say between 2030 and 2040 but I do not have to be correct.
If you are really asking me when I think the first seals of Revelation were opened. I would have to tell you I do not think any of them have been opened yet.
alright thanks Don for the info. i have a couple more quick questions. one is why couldn’t the war of psalm 83 have occurred in the past in lets say the few wars israel fought since it became a nation in 1948? I’m sure the Muslims wanted to wipe them out from being a nation back then just as they do now. and the other question is why does Jesus have to come soon at all? if all the trends will be in place by 2030 to 2040 as you say wont they stay in place for hundreds of years? i do not believe that will be the case i think Jesus will come soon probably in my lifetime cause I’m still a teenager. let me know. thanks.
Sorry to be short but I am late for an appointment and have to run. Israel was not a nation state after Islam and the Arab confederacy came into being so Psalm 83 could not have occurred before1948. There also in history is no such confederacy as is indicated in Psalm 83 gathered for the express purpose of cutting off Israel from being a nation. Therefore, the prophecy is unfulfilled and is yet future.
No, the world trends will not stay in place for hundreds of years. Read the 25 article series I provided a link to to in my last comment. They all seem to correlate that the end time events will occur on earth within three decades. just look at world conditions today and tell me that it can survive the way it is going now for even fifty more years.
This very soon to be war starting with Israel’s attack on Iran’s nuclear sights is the start of the Gog Magog War in Ezekiel chapter 38 meaning the 2nd coming is way sooner then you or anyone thinks.
There is no way that this can be the start of the Ezekiel chapter 38 war. For that war Israel has to be living in security in peace. Read the chapter!
Hi Don, I have been reading your comments and want to know if you have any thoughts about the possibility of the invasion of Israel by Gog (Russia) to coincide with the Jewish Calendar of Holy Days and/or Feasts of Israel. In Scripture, God has always “operated” in a very uniform pattern. It seems that history tends to repeat itself. In talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948. The generation that sees this happen is when we can expect the Rapture to be very near and then the return of Jesus to set up His Kingdom on Earth. Why not view the generation as those under age 20 in 1948? Just as it was when Moses’ Exodus generation rejected God’s guidance to go into the Promise Land? They wandered in the wilderness for 40 years (a generation then). My mother was 80 years old this year and I pray for her to be saved and know God’s wonderful gift of salvation before she dies. She saw the Proclamation of Independance of Israel during her generation. That’s why I feel a sense of urgency about evangelizing to her and others. I believe the time is very near for the Rapture. Also, I am praying about where God would have me fellowship. My husband and I have been married for 3 years. I have been attending my husband’s church for about 3 years, but I feel it is a dead church. He usually sleeps throughout the service, does not want to be involved in ministry and refuses to be the spiritual leader of our home. I read the Scriptures several times a day and pray continually for God’s wisdom. I am involved in a ministry in this church and other ministries outside of this church. I truly feel more alive for Jesus when I am doing the outside ministries. My husband is now angry that I am wanting to visit other evangelical churches. As a God-fearing Christian woman, am I being unreasonable?
I think the Gog invasion will be on a an appointed fast day. I have spoken enough about the fig tree parable on this blog already.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/2009/04/03/is-the-parable-of-the-fig-tree-about-the-generation-that-saw-the-rebirth-of-israel.html
More likely it is the generation that was old enough to see the first signs that Jesus was talking about rather than those under 20. Most young people would not even be aware of the signs.
All you really can do is let your feeling be known to your husband. You can only change your husband by good example and prayer.
Hi Don, I’ve just discovered your site and have perused a few articles. I really believe the time is now! I think we ought to be looking up every minute for the “sign of the Son of Man” to appear in the heavens.
Sexual perversion is rampant. Unspeakable things.
Money has failed. Government has failed. Homes have broken like sticks. And children have become monsters. State education has failed under the leadership of satan. There’s nothing left right now, but for Jesus to come back and get us out of here. Then all hell is gonna break loose on this earth.
I believe judgement is at any minute, and thats not putting a time on it, but just knowing the nature of GOD, HIS wrath is boiling as I write this. HE loves judgement, and will execute evil on this world shortly. Readers should’nt be lulled into thinking HE’S not coming until such and such time, but should be looking up right now!
The buzzards are gathering together. They’re gettin ready for the great feast of the unbelievers (captains, kings, governers, leaders, all those without CHRIST) after we’re taken out of here. And then we’ll be raising fruits and vegetables fertilized with their own bodies during the millineum.
You’d have to be deaf and dumb not to believe the time is at hand.
In HIS service
God’s mercy will exist until all that are given to Jesus come in. God has not lost control of the earth. The Church will continue on it until He that hinders is taken out of the way.
The United States is not the world. Whole nations have not even heard the gospel yet. I fully expect things to get very bad in the United States before the tribulation and you cannot equate America with the world as if America was the world barometer for the second coming. People could and did say the same thing many times in history but the world still goes on.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/Imminent%20Danger%20to%20the%20United%20States%20of%20America.htm
The “Sign of the Son of Man” is not the rapture it comes after the tribulation of those days. Read Matt 24:29 and 30. So why would you expect to see the sign of the Son of Man coming in great glory before the tribulation? The Rapture is not the second coming and there are no signs for it, it can happen at any time.
You say, “HE loves judgement, and will execute evil on this world shortly.” God does not love judgment. God wants all men to come to His Son for forgiveness of sin and God can do no evil. Seems to me that you are speaking what you wish to believe here and are also putting words in the mouth of God.
Many of us have different interpretations of the WORD, and apparently you are no different. I believe the tribulation is upon the world today as we speak. Abomination runs rampant in our society and has been for a long time in other countries and societies. We stand the best chance of seeing Jesus return of any generation that ever lived, and its exciting!
I don’t know of any little tiny corner of the world that has not heard the good news. There have been radio and TV satellite broadcasts into remote regions for years.
You may need to re-read some scripture if you don’t believe God is a God of judgement. He said He created evil. And, He has and will destroy evil whenever He gets ready. No need to write a book here, but just one example would be His destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. You may think that was an act of love, but somehow, I see it as His hot wrath and judgement on sin. He said “I love judgement!” Neither will he aquit someone who has done evil or sinned. He cannot, for He is perfect! The only way to escape judgement is if someone repents, accepts Jesus, and He has mercy on them.
I’m not sure about anyone else, but I will looking for His coming……now.
God Bless!
Buddy why do you imply that I said things that I never ever said. I never said that our God is not also a God of judgment. I disagreed with you saying that “God loves Judgment and He will execute evil on this world shortly” Once again in your latest comment you said God said, “I love judgment” When you are going to quote God directly and make dogmatic statements like that about the words of God, I wish you would give us chapter and verse. Because what you said is just not in my Bible. At best it is a very bad interpretation of what you think God said.
I do not know what little part of the world you are referring to when you imply the gospel has already been heard everywhere? Have you ever heard of the 10 x 40 window? Most of the people who dwell on this area of the earth have not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ even once in their lives. What makes you think they can get Christian radio or Christian broadcasting or satellite TV or that they could even afford it? What makes you think that most would even take the risk to listen to forbidden religious programs even if they could, and take the real risk of getting themselves killed? Why would they do this before they are even saved? There are at least 2 billion people on earth that have never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of grace even once and even where many have heard about Jesus they often get a distorted gospel like Catholicism.
However, having said all that, I am not saying that everyone has to hear the gospel of grace before the Rapture. In my opinion the “gospel of the kingdom” is the task of the 144,000 Jews. But I do think God still has people to call out to be part of His Church.
You say the Tribulation is upon the world today. Tribulation has been upon the world since Adam fell in sin but we are talking about end time Bible prophecy here, the last seven years. Since you seem to imply that we you are in this period now why don’t you tell us what marked the start of this seven year tribulation and when will the first trumpet judgment come?
The reason that judgment and the Kingdom on earth has been delayed is to give people time to repent until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. However, now that you are in the door you seem to want the door shut for everyone else. Sounds somewhat like a bunker mentality to me.
By the way, I do not disagree that Jesus will return to most people living in this generation. That is why my website is called “The Prophetic Years”, but if you want Jesus to come in Glory before the judgments of Revelation you are not being scriptural or logical. The scriptures about the second coming of Jesus in Glory are simply not going to be fulfilled before 2019 for the very reasons I gave in my post but there are other reasons as well.
Don,
The Bible is full of judgement from day one. The Lord uses it for correction, which creates repentance, which in turn brings one straying in the world back into the fold. Judgement is not limited or delayed. Theres not just one judgement in the end times. It is practiced daily by the Lord, and it is His delight when one of His children return unto Him.
I know of many instances where men were under the powers of darkness bound by alcohol, drugs, prostitution, you name it. Men who were saved as young boys. And the Lord placed situations or circumstances in their lives, (judgement), that brought them back to the Lord. These situations were’nt by happenstance. He said He would visit the iniquity of the fathers and children and childrens children. (Exodus 34:7) In other words, He uses it as a big ol razor strap. Whatever happened to those? They led many down a more straight and narrow path! And, I can’t remember one person that was ever killed by a good old fashioned whipping for doing something wrong.
Don, I think Jesus will come whenever He feels like it. 2010, or 3010. But, In Matthew 24, He spells it out pretty clear when we should looking for His return. I can’t put any type of timeline on that, but I can see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears whats happening in our present time. And I believe that MANY abominations that maketh desolate have stood in holy places.
Any time He does come back, even if in 2019, He will shut out some. The nations will ALL have heard when it occurs. Matthew 24:14 states that this gospel will be preached in all the world, (not to all people), but in all the world, and then the end shall come.
Thank you for your forum. I have enjoyed lots of new reading here. Hopefully more lost folks will stumble in here and meet the great “I AM”.
Buddy, I do not disagree with some of what you said here but you still have not told me where in the Bible it says “God loves Judgment and He will execute evil on this world”. God uses Judgment as a last resort because our God is a God of Mercy. That is why Jesus came and died for our sins and now sits on the mercy seat in heaven.
By the way, correction of your own children is not judgment. God does correct His children but that is because He love them.
Jesus will come in Glory at the time appointed by the Father, period. I think the Bible makes that clear.
Saying that “many abominations that maketh desolate have stood in holy places” is taking what Daniel and Jesus said entirely out of proper context. With many of the things you say you show lack of understanding of scripture. Perhaps you should be doing more learning and less shooting from the hip. If you are going to throw scripture at people to show judgment is due at least quote the scripture accurately and use it in proper context.
Matthew 24:14 is to the Jews and is about the Gospel of the Kingdom it is probably not talking about the Gospel of Grace. That is what I have been saying that the 144,000 Jews will preach the Gospel of the kingdom to the whole world before the end will come.
You really did not answer my questions about some of the things you said. Again to keep this post on thread I do not see how we are already in the tribulation as you claim. Show me where any of the judgments of Revelation have been fulfilled and how everything I brought up in this post can be fulfilled before 2019?
Wow this thread just keeps going and going and going (LOL)
While I see what Buddy is saying I also agree with Don. God is first and foremost a God of Grace, Love, and unending Mercy. He does not take delight in wrath, ever let alone “love” it. He is a God of wrath but that is when His patience is at its end, which is a very long rope of patience.
One thing I really do agree with Buddy on is that this WHOLE worlds is in a state of depravity, debauchery, sewer like mess. Sometimes Don will think that we are talking only about the USA when we are talking the whole world. Europe and Pacific Rim countries are vastly more depraved than the US in my opinion. Europe and also countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Russia are completely gone, without God, and in the gutter. It will take the 2nd coming of Christ to restore these. Pacific Rim countries (democracies) like Japan, S.Korea, Thiland, and such are a total lost mess. China is largely an atheist cesspool. For China however I do think the true “Chruch” of Jesus Christ is stronger than most churches in the US due to the massive persecution they get but overall China is just as lost as the US. So this world is in a state of even worse than sodom. What is left for God to like and be pleased with? The list could go on and on and on.
I believe this is the End of the end and there is not much more time. I do not think we have 1-2 decades left, no way possible. Without Gods divine intervention, the world would completely destroy itself through nuclear annihilation within a few years. I think the time is much nearer for his 2nd coming than 10-20yrs.
The world has always been a very depraved place that is the nature of man without God. There are just more depraved people on earth today then there was. So sure, judgment is coming soon and man will destroy the earth if left to himself. People were saying the world would destroy itself with nuclear annihilation within a decade or two about fifty years ago and we are still here. There can even be nuclear war in our time without it being the end of the world. It even happened in world war II.
Nevertheless, I have yet to see an argument about how all the things I mentioned in my post can be accomplished before 2019? I am refuting the pagan based 2012 date setters. They are wrong, Jesus is not coming back in Revelation before 2019. He may rapture the Church in this period and the judgment of Revelation may even begin before 2019 but that is not the same as saying all will be completed and Jesus will set up His kingdom on earth by 2019. It will not happen it cannot be fulfilled in just ten years and if it can then answer the arguments that I brought up in the post.
Don,
I’m sure I’ve made some misstatements without having scripture to back it up. I apologize for that. I do believe God is what He says He is. Full of goodness, mercy and truth. I am not as learned in scriptures as you Don, or some other scholars are, but have studied extensively for myself and gathered understanding from the Lord as the Spirit would have it.
I do believe that the Lord is fond of judgement when it comes to His children and the correction it brings forth in His eyes. I have experienced it first hand, and thank Him daily for bringing me back out of the world and back into the light.
I don’t have an argument for you , when Jesus will return. I only hope and pray that it is soon. With my limited understanding, I can see and agree with Eric that the world is a sewer, and have no choice but to be watching and waiting for the time I get out of here.
Brother Don, Great article and well thought out. However, I believe we are seeing everything related to end time events rapidly accelerating. Therefore your comments about these things being a decade or longer off just do not seem correct to me because, as you know, we have seen an exponential increase in technology alone. And re: the Chinese, though what you say makes sense, we know that in their communist slave system they could rapidly put together the required army. Everything is being expedited and rapidly unfolding before our very own eyes. Look at how the enemy is flaunting world government and a global currency. Re: modern Babylon, consider that the most posh playground of the elite, Dubai, was built in 4-5 years with private funds and contracted labor. Just think of the anti christ with all of the slave labor and resources of the world; he could practically build it overnight.
Continue to watch for the Blessed Hope and encourage everyone that He is is coming soon and very soon just as He said. The rapture could happen today.
Maranatha!
Don, one more thing re: the Chinese.
If the USA is out of the way, which I believe we soon will be since we will no longer be what we think we are or worse still, no longer exist, no one will stop the kings of the east. All of their ambitions will be full speed ahead.
I personally think that there will be a different occupying force in the Middle East in the near future (1-5 years). The Middle-eastern and Eastern countries are tired of financing our wars, etc. Look for China and Russia to start wanting to provide “security” in more areas.
David, Obviously we are very near the times spoken of but like I said in my article it is not humanly possible for all to be prophetically completed by next decade. There is no question that the technology can exist for some kind of mark of the Beast system but there simply is no way that these buy sell systems can be manufactured and set up worldwide in just a few years. Nor could the communications systems that would be required for this. People in America need to stop thinking the world is America and because something is feasible here in the next decade it can fulfill prophecy about the world.
If what I said about the Chinese makes sense then how can you say they could put together a 200 million man army? I said if they even tried to field a forty million man army today China would starve and totally collapse. Besides, China does not have the weapons to destroy one third of the men on earth today and China will not have those weapons to do so until it develops major new capabilities. The only way this army is possible in the next decade is if you make the 200 million man army an army of demons and not people (some teachers do).
I have no doubt that Babylon could be built in a decade once billions of dollars started flowing into it but you simply cannot realistically look at Iraq and tell me that this is all going to start tomorrow. We really do not even know if Iraq will hold together as a nation or if Iraq is involved in the war of Psalm 83 before the tribulation.
I know we can see everything coming together now to fulfill prophecy but it has been coming together for 60 years and although we can now see how all these things can literally happen today they cannot all be fulfilled in a decade.
When “Bible prophecy experts” keep telling people that Jesus is coming next decade and He does not come they lose the audience. For many decades they had this message but now except for the 2012 cult most of the audience in the Church for this message is long gone. Soon we will lose the few left because Jesus is not coming in 2012-2019. The Church in general is not preaching the soon coming of Jesus anymore because it has lost the audience. Now the Mahdi, Mayan, Nostradamus, Planet X, Bible code gnostic’s have taken over the teaching of Bible prophecy and it is only going to finish the job of killing the message of the second coming or else lead gullible people to deception.
The Lord probably is not coming to raise His spiritual body until early on the third day just like God rose Jesus from the dead early on the third day. In other words not sooner than 2000 years after He was cut off or after 2030. Also I keep telling everyone that the seals, trumpet and bowls are not limited to a seven year period in Revelation like most think. The first 5 seals will likely take place before the final last seven years for Israel. Those events could very well play out next decade but the end is not yet. Do not be deceived. The events under the first four seals will brings the deception to the world that it has gone through the tribulation and entered the “new age” but those were just the beginnings of sorrows. The tribulation will not even have begun yet.
I thought we were financing our wars and that is why the United States is bankrupt.
Nope. China and other nations buying our treasuries is what finances our wars. They give us money and we spend it, and print anything more than what is loaned. I have no idea the exact figure now, but have read that the Federal Reserve has printed/added to their balance sheet over 1 trillion. Needless to say, when there is any kind of ‘recovery’, that money is HIGHLY inflationary.
Frank, China and others are financing our deficit but our taxpayers are the ones that will ultimately pay for these wars with interest. So in reality your children are financing our recent wars unless America defaults on its loans. When that happens the United States will no longer be a world power. She will be in poverty and foreign wars will be out of the question.
You say there will be a different occupying force in the middle east in 1 to 5 years? The only possibility for that is Europe, Iran or Israel. Europe is not going to do it unless there is a world war. Iran cannot sustain any occupation and Israel would not allow them anyway, so that leaves Israel. There is no way that Russia or China could occupy the middle-east in five years. In the next five years Russia and China will have enough trouble just trying to keep their own federation together. Certain People are claiming military strength in Russia and China that simply does not exist. The Russian army is a mess and China can not even take Taiwan or expand in any direction.
Actually, China and Russia could easily occupy the M.E. with other NATO forces. This is being bantered about in “Foreign Affairs” magazine by the CFR. China is building ships and forces like crazy. Believe me, they and Russia WILL be protecting their current and future increased needs for oil.
China and Russia are going to join NATO with whose army?
I have no doubt that China and Russia will be rising military powers in the future and control their areas of interest but if you read the articles in these Globalist magazines they are probably talking about Russia and China’s role in an idealist world government some decades in the future. I am still waiting for someone to show me how Russia’s rag tag army of today can become the mighty army of Ezekiel 38 in a few years and how China can field a 200 million man army in just six or seven years? I want articles that presents military facts that say I am wrong. You know what they say about opinions. Even at an ever increasing spending on their military it will still take China at least two decades before it can field an Army half that size. That is why there are at least three major nations from the Far East involved.
Here are a couple of articles on Russia that I think are petty accurate.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/45668
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/52313.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-PostcardstoPresident/idUSTRE4BF5JM20081216
Even if Russia could downsize and modernize its army into a modern fighting force by 2020 as Putin wishes the imminent invasion of Gog in the 2012-2019 time frame is still bogus.
As always Don, you are correct and everyone else is incorrect. I am sorry I questioned your unending knowledge.
Quote: “I am still waiting for someone to show me … how China can field a 200 million man army in just six or seven years?”
Concerning all this discussion about China and other “key” developments that must happen before the 7 year tribulation:
The Bible says nothing about China. An army (possibly from the east) could be from any country or combination of countries from east of Israel, which includes mainly India and China but also several other smaller countries. Since the Bible doesn’t give us more precise country identification, we can only speculate. I also note that Revelation 9, the reference to the 200 million army, does not say that the army of these men was kept for that specific day and hour. It only says that the angels released from imprisonment at the Euphrates river had been kept for that specific time and purpose; these are very likely demons who were involved in some great event at that location in the distant past, perhaps in connection with the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11) or even earlier events (Genesis 6). Revelation 9 doesn’t even say where this army comes from, geographically; those 200 million men could come from any direction north, south, east or west. It is true that the largest population base at this point in time is in India and China, but again we don’t have enough information regarding the details of how this will actually play out.
All estimates concerning present population trends, and projecting those to the tribulation era, simply have too many variables. Consider that by the time of the Revelation 9 event — at least 3 1/2 years into the tribulation — 1) all the Church Age saints have been raptured; 2) a vast multitude of people will come to believe during the tribulation (Revelation 7) and be martyred as described in later chapters; 3) a large number of the unbelieving population will die from all the terrible seal judgements on the Earth. As to that vast army in Revelation 9, we don’t know how Satan will stir them up, or with what motive, but with all the catastrophic events going on during the tribulation, and the push toward one-world government, we really can’t say that this army will be composed of men specifically from one nation (of the existing nations today), much less that it will come specifically from China.
Look Frank, this post is about why Jesus will not come in 2012-2019 because as I indicated in the article prophetically things just are not quite in place yet. I gave you three articles that tells you the condition of Russia’s army today. If you think they are wrong and Russia can fulfill the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 in the next few years with the army that Russia has today lets see some documentation of how that is possible. If everyone on this posts wants to make the Lord come back to fulfill a date in their own mind that mostly got their from pagan sources they are wrong.
Lynda, I also think more than China is involved but people keep telling me how China can field an army of 200 million today and that is nonsense. According to other passages of the Bible it can be surmised that this army comes from East of the Euphrates River. The Angels are bound there and the Euphrates River is dried up so this army can cross. Yes, the angels could be fallen angels that will be released for a specific time to kill a third of men but the next versus says how they do it. They do it with horsemen a cavalry. So there has to be the men and the population base to support the men. What better time for this event than in about 20or 30 years when there is an army of peak surplus men created by China’s one child policy through its infanticide and abortion and also the surplus men created by the abortion of females in India and elsewhere? If this cavalry is going to kill one third of the men on earth they are going to have to have horrific weapons to do that (I think it will be lasers).
You bring up some good points. Billions will be killed or removed before this war even occurs making the fielding of this large an army even that much more difficult. It certainly will take billions of people to field an army of two hundred men. By the way, it says “horsemen” this cavalry is most likely traveling not walking. One person vehicles are being engineered that will be much better than the Segway. Of course they will be made in China or India.
Everyone knows Russia’s army is currently weaker than ours. But they are rebuilding at present. Likewise for China. This is one reason they are and have been amassing core raw materials like steel and copper. In less than a decade both forces will be a formidable force, while ours is and will continue to be on the wane because of fiscal issues. That was the only point I was trying to make. Who knows when the rapture will take place.
Meant to mention in my last post that China is even striking oil deals with Russia that will guarantee them oil for about $20/barrel for the next several years. This was mentioned in “Foreign Affairs” magazine by the CFR. I have yet to see this reported on the MSM.
All this goes on while we continue to purchase the lionshare of our oil from foreigners. I’m sure you are aware that we have purposely been sabotaged in this area by our own elected officials, forcing us to provide “security” in far away lands just to ensure our supply of foreign oil that we could easily have supplied here and in Alaska under the guise of “environmentalism”.