Does the war of Psalm 83 come before the war of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39?

On October 1, 2008 · 258 Comments

I have not read the book “Isralestine”, by Bill Salus but it sounds like an intriguing prophetic explanation of end time events. Almost all futurist Bible prophecy students will agree that there are three end time wars involving Israel. However, we disagree somewhat on the timing of first two wars. Those wars being the Ezekiel Chapter 38 and 39 war where Gog comes down with a host of nations and the Psalm 83 war where a confederacy of nations attempts to cut Israel off from being a nation. In the mix somewhere is the destruction of Damascus since the prophecy has never been fulfilled yet.

I have heard enough about this book to know that Bill Salus makes a strong case for the war of Psalm 83 coming first. I believe the premise is that after the aftermath of the Psalm 83 war that brings the destruction of Damascus, Israel will expand its borders. That will allow Israel to have the security that is implied by Ezekiel at the time of the Gog invasion. At that time Russia will come down with a host of nations against Israel and God will intervene.

In the past, I have tended to put the Ezekiel war first and I placed the Psalm 83 war in the middle of the tribulation making that the reason why the Jews flee to the mountains. However, Bill Salus may be correct, it does answer a whole lot of questions.

If you have read this book I would appreciate your own insights.

Israel destroys Damascus, then Russia invades

Indeed Russia and Iran are ready to make their moves, but what about Syria? Oddly Syria, who today panders alongside Iran for Russian affections, is not included among the elite nine members of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 consortium of attacking nations. Why not? What knocks their quiver of missiles out of the Ezekiel military equation?

As I have documented in my recently released book, “Isralestine, The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East,” the Bible makes quite clear that in a distinctly separate Psalm 83 episode Damascus, the capital of Syria, soon ceases to be a city, and subsequently shortly thereafter Russia and Iran advance against Israel.

Furthermore “Isralestine” explains how the destruction of Damascus followed by the Ezekiel invasion sets the stage for the final tribulation period, whereby the Antichrist rallies his Armageddonites together in one last days ditch effort to destroy the Jewish race.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin

Thus there are three scheduled end time advances against Israel, not just Ezekiel’s. First comes Psalm 83, the Arab-Israeli war, followed promptly by the Ezekiel 38 and 39 Russian – Iranian invasion, and lastly the campaign of Armageddon by the Antichrist.

The destruction of Damascus will be such a powerful world event that Isaiah was instructed to boldly and succinctly state, the burden against Damascus. “Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city, And it will be a ruinous heap.” (Isaiah 17:1, NKJV) Isaiah further announces that the fortified cities of Syria will be forfeited into Israeli sovereignty. (Isaiah 17:9) This suggests that the dooming of Damascus and conquest of Syria results from of an Israeli Defense Forces campaign.

Amos and Jeremiah echo this 2,800-year-old Isaiah prophecy by prophetically uttering some additional details they were given. Amos declares that the capitol building of Syria will go up in smoke, and that the nation as a whole, will go into captivity. (Amos 1:3-5) Jeremiah concurs and furthermore declares the Syrian military will be decisively defeated, and in addition many young men will die in the blood-stained streets of Damascus. (Jeremiah 49:23-27)

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 Don Koenig founded www.thepropheticyears.com website in 1999 after almost thirty years of independent study on the Bible and learning from many astute teachers within Christendom. Don created his website to write about Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and his Christian worldviews. Don wrote a free Revelation commentary ebook in 2004 named "The Revelation of Jesus Christ Through The Ages". The World and Church and Bible Prophecy section of this website was started in 2007.


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258 Responses to “Does the war of Psalm 83 come before the war of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39?”

  1. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    “Isralestine is a fascinating book about end time prophecy in the Middle East. The Lord has given the author a gift for understanding and applying ancient Hebrew prophecies to our day and time. The book is well researched and well written. It is not sensationalist in nature, nor is it wildly speculative. It is biblically based and contains some NEW INSIGHTS that help make sense of end time prophecies. I highly recommend it to all who are interested in understanding what God is doing in the Middle East today and what His plans are for the future of all the nations in the region.”

    Dr. David Reagan – Lamb & Lion Ministries
    more endorsements at http://isralestine.org/24501.html

    Review by Terry James of Raptureready.com http://www.raptureready.com/terry/book1.html
    Review by Prophecyinthenews.com http://isralestine-blog.blogspot.com/2008/09/isralestine-ancient-blueprints-of.html

  2. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill, thanks for the additional endorsement links. It is not often that a new book comes out on Bible prophecy with new insight on the issue that is not promoting some very speculative private interpretations based on moon shadows and dating schemes.

    This is one book I will immediately get and read and I would recommend all serious Bible prophecy students do likewise because time is short. The first phase, the war of Psalm 83 might be upon us very shortly. At this point i would believe it would then be pre-trib and pre-rapture. I do not know the time duration of the greater Israel living in security until Gog comes down, but I would think the Ezekiel war is at least a decade or so in the future for many reasons. But I need to read the book to see what Bill is saying.

    I also find it Interesting that in today’s news a unconfirmed report said that Syria is now once again rebuilding its nuclear program with the aid of North Korea and Iran. If this is true it gives even more reason for the destruction of Damascus and the greater Isralestine.

    Blessings in Christ,

    Don

  3. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Don; email me your address and I’ll make sure you get your courtesy promotional copy promptly. bill@isralestine.net

  4. Bill,
    I have read Israelestine and it certainly brought together information that makes a lot of sense. The Psalm 83 war coming first seems to be right. When Damascus is reduced to a smoking ruin and Israel has expanded her borders to take in the surrounding areas (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, parts of Suadi Arabia, The West Bank and Gaza) and her closest enemies have been eliminated, Israel will then dwell in peace with no walls, making her look an easy prey to the Russian Bear. These facts coupled with the fact that Israel has discovered a natural gas field with 8 trillion cubic feet of Gas off her Northern coast, as well as the predicted discovery of huge oil finds in the Joseph area of Israel and at the southern end of the Dead Sea, leads me to believe that this is the “hook” God will place in Russia’s jaw to bring her down. The fact that Israel wins the Psalm 83 war by the strength of her army, but wins the Gog and Magog war because of divine intervention will make her the object of fear and reverence to the rest of the world. Islam will be eliminated as a force since Allah will be totally discredited, but this will not please the AntiChrist, who will make a deal with Israel, not to save her but to neutralize her growing power.

  5. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I have come to a similar conclusion after reading the book. I also have since wrote a review of Bill’s book.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/war_of_Pslam_83_and_enlarged_Israel.htm

  6. Vladimir, means world ruler, world prince what danial called him, and he has the same treaties as the anti-christ with. theses nations

  7. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Vladimir, means world ruler? Koenig, means King so what? We really do not speak Russian here.

    Gog has the same treaties as the the Antichrist? Show me where Gog has the same treaties as the Antichrist from Bible prophecy? I already know there is no such connection.

  8. Bill Salus says:

    Don – I just read your Isralestine review. Thanks for taking the time to write the book and present your review of it. A quick note, I don’t believe that in the immediate aftermath of Ps. 83 that the nation of Israel will expand fully into all of the Genesis 15:18 territory. I expect they will primarily take over modern day Jordan, and a small part of North Eastern Egypt. In addition the government of Israel at the time may encourage the establishment of some new Jewish settlements and / or outposts in a few more strategic bits of soil in Southern Lebanon, Southern Syria, and Northern Saudi Arabia. Furthermore I hope Israel does not have to fight off the Ps. 83 Arab confederates alone, but due to the fact that I’ve not yet found scriptures supporting the involvement of an enjoining broader coalition I suspect Israel will stand alone in this war. (Ezekiel 25:14, Obadiah 1:18). This conclusion is also fueled by looking at the present prevelant international attitude of Isolation toward Israel.

  9. Bill Salus says:

    Correction to my comments above. Thanks for taking the time to read the book (not write) and for writing the review. Perhaps that was a freudian slip and you should write a postscript to the book sharing your view of the coming Ps. 83 war.

  10. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Bill,
    I wrote that review of your book quite some time ago. I know that you think the expansion takes place in two or more phases. I think there has to be some major paradigm shift in the Middle East for Israel to conquer and hold the lands that you indicate. Otherwise the world would go nuts and Israel could not be living in peace and security at the time of the Ezekiel 38-39 war.

    My own take on how this can be happen is that the West will soon have a world war with all of the radical Islamic states. After the world war is over I think a Mediterranean Union will be the real superpower in the Western world and Israel will be part of the regional power. I know Israel is to included in the Mediterranean Union recently formed by France. I am suggesting that the proposed Mediterranean Union actually becomes the revised Roman Empire not the EU. The make-up of the nations in the EU today is all wrong to fulfill a revised Roman Empire but the nations proposed for the Mediterranean Union fit the old Roman boundaries to a tee.

    That also gives good reason why the coming prince confirms the covenant with the many for seven years. Israel will be delegated the power to run the show in that area of the Middle East until the roman covenant with them is broken. I am not saying that Israel will not be the power that conquers the Arab nations around Israel. I am saying it looks to me like the war of Psalm 83 is only part of a much larger world war against Islamic extremism that rages from Europe to India. I do not know if the war to cut off Israel will start the world war or if the world war will actually kick off the war of Psalm 83. It does not matter the end results would be the same. That is the only logical way that I can see Israel greatly expanding its power in today’s world. It can only do so if it an ally in greater world war effort.

  11. DonNo Gravatar says:

    John, the Bible defines him as the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. People differ since there are some connections with both Turkey and Russia but I think it is talking about the leader of Russia. In fact I think both nations will take place in this war along with many other named nations. However, Gog is not the Antichrist for many reasons. Just one reason being the armies of Gog and the Antichrist are destroyed in different locations.

  12. Bill Salus says:

    Don – I’m familiar with your M.U. theory, and think it could be possible. I personally favor the Western European model over the M.U. model, but definately over the Beast from the East hypothesis. Have you found any scripture to support your West vs. Islam theory? We know that scripture supports the wars of Ps. 83 and Ez. 38-39. Also Matthew 24:7 talks about nation coming against nation, which I believe already occurred in WW I & II. Are you coming up with this conclusion out of Daniel 11 or somewhere?

    Lastly I appreciate your ability to dissect Isralestine and see how your model meshes with and around my Ps. 83 hypothesis. The book was intended to inject the Ps. 83 prophecy into the scholarly community to stimulate this type of thinking.

  13. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill, I would say the M.U. model is the revised Roman Empire implied by Daniel. It is a better Western European model then the European Union. Once the EU started including East European nations it no longer fit the revised Roman Empire of Daniel. Almost all premillennial prophecy teachers would agree that the present alignment of the EU will not be the final alignment anyway. All I am saying is that the EU somehow shape shifts into the borders of the MU. They might even still call it the EU but it will be on the borders of the proposed MU and not on the borders of the EU of today. I also think that Russia will soon form a new alliance of nations and we will see some of those nations that joined the EU return to the new Russian Union. The alignment of nations before the breakup of the Soviet Union made much more sense to me for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy than the alignment that we see today.

    Does scripture support my West against radical Islam theory? Maybe not directly but scripture does not give much detail on future wars unless Israel is involved. I already suggested in my prior comment that the war of Psalm 83 could be a subset of what will be a world war. I also suggest in my Revelation commentary (but I am not dogmatic about it) that the first seals of Revelation could take place before the 70th week of Daniel even begins. I see no indication from Revelation that God is dealing with Israel again until the sealing of the 144,000 Jews.

    Unconventional thinking l know, but I think when the ecumenical Roman Harlot is expecting some sort of Christ to appear 7 years after the start of a major world war or perhaps the Rapture the Harlot instead will be turned on and burned by a Satanic Antichrist that I think will lead a counter revolution against the Harlot from the followers of luciferian “New Age” beliefs. Then he sets up his Kingdom in Babylon where it all started. I said all that to say this, the war against radical Islam might be one of the two wars mentioned in the seals. It also could be the beginning of sorrows that Jesus talked about in Mathew 24. I agree that WW I & WW 2 could fulfill the nation against nation prophecy in Matt 24 but I would include WW 3.

    So this war against radical Islam could be in scripture in the more genetic end time passages.

    I agree that Pslam 83 is likely to be the next major war for Israel and it will be that war that allows Israel the peace described in Ezekiel 38. I recommend that people read your book for further information. The book is “Isralestine” it can be found at http://www.prophecydepot.com. Also read Bill’s blog it contains some good information and discussion.

  14. Don,
    The idea of the west against radical Islam would preclude the ecumenical direction in which the Roman church is trying to lead the world. Since radical Islam will not compromise with Hindus, Buddhists, Liberal “Christians”, New Agers, etc. in melding into a one world religion, they must dissapear before that can happen. Dave Hunt makes a great case for Roman hegemony over the religions of the world in “A Woman Rides the Beast.” The diminishing of Islam to an insignificant role by two major defeats – Pslam 83 and Ezekiel 38 seems to me to set the stage for the last push to one world government and religion. And the 10 nations may not be 10 European nations, but 10 geographical divisions (EU, North American Union, Asian Union, etc.) led by the Illuminati banks headquartered in Europe.

    The stage has been set for a European AntiChrist through the publishing of books like “The DaVinci Code” which provides a way for members of the Royal Houses of Europe to establish descent from David through Jesus and Mary Magdalene through the Merovingian kings to today’s royals. Thus someone like Charles or William could prove to be the one the decived are waiting for. Barak Obama does not fit the bill, although he may be a real type of the Antichrist. I believe that A powerful Jewish nation – raised up by great victories over their enemies and enriched by the spoils of war and the discovery of massive amounts of oil and natural gas off the coast of Israel, in the western lands once belonging to Joseph and Asher and at the south end of the Dead Sea will only cooperate with a European who could prove that they could be the King and thus the Messiah of Israel.

  15. Bill Salus says:

    Don – I believe that the first 5 seals of Rev. 6 occur prior to the 70th week of Daniel. This is evidenced in Rev. 6:9-11, whereby the martyred believers ask “How long” until their spilt blood is avenged. They were martyred for the word of God, suggesting that they are familiar with the 70th week of Daniel timetable, which is clearly specified in the word of God. Thus their query of “How long” tips us off that they die sometime prior to the commencement point of the 7 yr. trib. period otherwise they would know how long. I believe the sixth seal begins the outpouring of the wrath.

    Re: the Antichrist, Daniel 9:26 tells us that he will be of European based Roman descent, but does not tell us that the ten kings will be. I believe that references to the ten kings in scripture leave open the option suggested by Patrick Craig that ten geographical locations may exist at the time that the ten kings come into their Rev. 17:12-13 hour of power with the beast.

    If so then I envision the Antichrist peace-pact with Israel having nothing to do with the present Arab – Israeli conflict, but something to do with the the reapportionment of the world into the rulership of the ten kingdoms. Israel will by then have become greater territorially and militarily in the aftermath of Ps. 83. Additionally they will be recognized in a more spiritually empowered light due to the divine deliverance in Ez. 39:1-7. The third temple will be reinstated at some point in the aftermath of either Ps. 83 and / or Ez. 38 – 39 further evidencing Israel’s condition of spiritual empowerment.

    Israel will have become empowered and enlarged in the aftermath of the Ps. 83 and Ez. 38-39 prophecies. Islam and terrorism should be greatly diminished as a result as well. I don’t see other nations involved in the defeat of the Ps. 83 and Ez. 38 confederacies, and thus conclude that Islam will likely not be the catalyst of a 3rd world war. There may be another world war, but I doubt that it will Islamically centered.

  16. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Patrick, I read A woman Rises the Beast it is an excellent book. I do not see that a war with Islam would preclude the ecumenical direction of the Roman church, in fact I see just the opposite. I will explain that in my next paragraph. What i am saying is that the war will be against Muslim radical states and radical elements within Islam. I think a war between the West and the radical Islamic nations and their henchmen causing terrorism throughout the world is inevitable. It is only going to take one or two attacks with weapons of mass destruction for the West to figure that out. Then there has to be a war against Iran and Pakistan and all the Arab nations around Israel will of course join in except perhaps Iraq and a few rich oil states. Even apart from terrorism the war can be started just by an attack on Iran, or Pakistan falling to the Taliban or even another Palestinian war against Israel.

    The effort to defeat radical Islam will have a huge ally in the Roman Catholic Church because I believe during this war Marian apparitions will appear with a strong message for the world. The message of this “Queen of heaven” apparition will be heard and believed by the whole world. It will be a message of a choice between destruction of the human race or or tolerance, pluralism, universalism and peace. The messages from this “Queen of Heaven” demon will convince all religion to modify their doctrines and to be subservient to the Roman church. When the Muslims leadership accept the message of pluralism and universalism along with the Roman church being the final religious authority on earth it will bring the end of the world war. However, it will also bring future persecution to all who cannot except the new religious pluralism and universalism of the Harlot. Those who continue to hold to fundamental doctrines will be seen as a threat to world peace. Thus, the Harlot will persecute true believers before she gets a taste of her own medicine from a counter revolution from New Age Luciferians following the Antichrist.

    So I agree that Islam will diminish and it will either convert to and join a more inclusive form of Catholicism or more likely all major religions will become so politically correct and ecumenical that there will not be much difference between them. All paths will lead to God as far as the Harlot is concerned as long as she has final authority in religious matters on the earth.

    I agree that the ten kings could be from 10 geographical divisions. Actually it seems likely. I also agree that the Antichrist will lead from Rome until the mid tribulation point but I also would say just because he leads from Europe does not necessarly mean that he does not have Assyrian blood lines. Remember the blood of these people are mingled and if this regional power is within the boundaries of the old Roman Empire a leader could arise in this revised Roman Empire from many Middle East nations as well as from Western Europe. After all Jesus was offered the position and He is a Jew. The EU today has a leader from a different nation every six months.

    It is very likely that Israel after this war will become very prosperous and not only because of her own resources. I think once peace is established most oil in the Middle East will be pumped through Israel and much of the worlds trade will also flow through Israel.

  17. Bill,
    I agree with you in that the antichrist peace pact that opens the tribulation period will not be about the Arab-Israeli conflict, since that will have been mitigated by Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38. It will be an attempt by the antichrist to neutralize Israel (as you suggest in Israelstine) rather than protect her.

  18. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill – Wow, if you believe the first 5 seals occur prior to the 70th week of Daniel you are only one of two persons I know that see it that way. You and me. :shock:
    I guess there could be a few others that also think the 70th week starts at the 6th seal but I cannot recall any. You just made a good argument for the 70th week occurring after the fifth seal that I have missed.

    Since we already see regional governments being set up I think the ten leaders being heads of regional areas of the world is logical. The Club of Rome broke up the world into ten regions decades ago and they are following the pattern.

    You could be right about that the covenant has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. All we really know is that when the Prince confirms the covenant it starts the 70th year of Daniel. Besides, the Arab nations are probably defeated at this point and there is no reason for a peace covenant with them. Maybe the covenant is not a peace treaty like most are teaching anyway? It might not be a peace treaty at all, it might just be a covenant involving the Jewish temple and continuing activities on the Mount.

    I really do not know how Israel can expand into the areas you suggest without a world war. Even if Israel attacked Iran today the U.S. would be dragged into the war because Iran would take military action against the U.S. and close shipping lanes and we would have to respond military. I also cannot see Iran staying out of a Psalm 83 war unless the U.S. already dealt with Iran making it possible for Israel to fight the Psalm 83 war without the worry of Iran. Of course if we attacked Iran we most certainly would get into a world war with radical Isam although it might not be called that at first. I guess one could argue that we are already in a world war with radical Islam but at some point when the war keep expanding and quacking you have to call a duck a duck. Your suggestion that Israel alone will diminish 1.5 billion Muslims is just not very logical to me. It is true that God will intervene in the Ezekiel war and the world will know it. But, how can you get a greatly expanded Israel due to the war of Psalm 83 without a world war? I just cannot see 1.5 billion Muslims allowing a greatly expanded Israel to happen without joining the fight unless the militants were already in a fight. I guess we will not have long to find out if Islam will be a catalyst for a 3rd world war or not. I think the third world war will take place within a few years and you think the same for the war of Psalm 83.

    By the way Bill, any idea why when you or I post something I always get a mailbox full rejection notice? Perhaps you need to put in a different email address for comment follow-up notification?

  19. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Don I put in a new email address. There are others who put the seals outside of the Tribulation, we are not our own Islands on this subject.

    Also I don’t believe Israel will destroy 1.5 Billion muslims. I believe they will destroy many Arab Muslims as per Psalm 83, and perhaps some Persian Muslims if they strike and / or invade Iran’s nuclear facilitites likely prior to Ps. 83. God destroys a multitude of more Muslims in Ez. 39:1-6. Other worldwide Muslims left will likely see the futility of the Islamic religion in the aftermath of all the above.

    The “notion” (Obama’s favorite word) that Muslims will become more peaceable I think goes against the grain of their religion. I think Patrick may be onto something when he says Islam will not be compatable with the Harlot of Rev. 17. Zephaniah 2:11 seems to allude to the Xenocide of Allah and all other god imposters if you study it carefully. I have an appendix in Isralestine about it “The Xenocide of the Gods”.

    Thanks for bringing up your points, it helps me to know how some interpret my suggestions within Isralestine. For instance the Jews will not claim all the promised land after Ps. 83, but only some of it. Also that the Jews will not kill all the Muslims, only some of them
    Blessings
    Bill

  20. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill, I know there are others who put the seals outside of the Tribulation. But I have not run into any who believe in classical dispensationalism that do not believe the seals are in the final seven years. That would include most of the well known Bible prophecy teachers. Perhaps some Jewish Christian teachers and progressive dispensationalists are not bound by that time limitation.

    Bill – I never said you thought Israel would destroy 1.5 Billion Muslims. I said diminish 1.5 billion Muslims because you said in your last post that Islam would be greatly diminished. I agree with that. I as much as said the same thing when I said they will be joining the Harlot after the world war.

    My real point was that the reason that Israel will succeed in the Psalm 83 war against the Arabs is because all the other radical Muslim states will be tied up in their own world war with the West. They will not be able to come to the aid of the Arabs. Otherwise Iran and other Muslim nations are not going to be sitting around watching Israel defeat all the Arab states mentioned in Psalm 83 and if they did help them they would also be mentioned in Psalm 83. I think Iran does not get involved because they are either already crippled by U.S. air strikes or they are tied up in a larger world war with the West. Israel alone would not be able to cripple Iran enough to keep Iran and other Muslim states from taking part in the Psalm 83 war. Since you believe the Psalm 83 war is imminent and know Iran is supplying tens of thousand of rockets etc to the Arab enemies of Israel to destroy her. Can you give me any other plausible reason why Iran does not take part in the Psalm 83 war? There could be one, but I am not seeing it.

    I disagree that all Muslims want war. Even you say they will be greatly diminished what do you mean by that? Just military? No, I think they will be diminished also through other religious deceptions like Marian apparitions. Many Muslims hold Mary in higher regard then they do Jesus. Anyway, you probably are familiar with writings on Catholicism and the woman on the Beast and how she becomes the leader of the ecumenical Harlot. If not, read some of Roger Oakland’s and Dave Hunt’s take on end time Marian deception. I never said Muslims would give up Islam or Allah. To them Allah just means God. They will have a liberalization of the way they interpret their scripture as did some of Christianity. In fact, the liberalization has already happened among many Muslims and that is why radicals attack them. My point is that after the great religious wars for the sake of world peace only pluralist politically correct religion will be allowed in the world and the Roman harlot will be the enforcer just as she was in the days of the inquisitions.

  21. ReyNo Gravatar says:

    I totally agree with Bill, I am currently reading his book and I believe he’s on target….and many folks don’t know that Damascus is the Headquarters of the Hamas terrorist unit and Hezbollah including many other terrorist units. This would give us a good understanding why Damascus will be eliminated.

  22. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    I’ve read all of the comments blogged above and found them to be a very intestesting exchange of ideas, the eschatolgocial sum of which I find myself in agreement with.

    However, when considering the possibility of the “M.U.” as the core territorial and military power basis for the coming Antichrist, I would like to present four caveat thoughts which are based in real-world realities and prophetic fulfillments that immediately occured to me:

    1. There is no such thing as a “Mediterranean Union”. There is a European Union-subservient organization known as the “Union for the Mediterranean” (Union pour la Méditerranée) or “UM.”

    2. Nicholas Sarkozy’s idealized “UM” had no financial back bone, nor did it have any military organization or cohesion, and there existed no political or legal basis for either. Sarkozy’s ideal was, in sum, a trial balloon made of lead as it never got off the ground due to EU oppostion.

    3. The entire premise for this Mediterranean grouping was defunct as of 14 months ago (March 2008) and had been rolled up in its entirety within the EU-sponsored “Euro-Mediterranean Partnership” (a/k/a the “Barcelona Process”) by mid July 2008.

    4. By the time the antichrist comes on the scene the entire paradigm of the eastern Mediterranean region while havebeen radically and permanently altered: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi and Egypt will have been military destroyed and partially absorbed territorially by Israel in the final Psalm 83 war; Turkey and Libya will have be destroyed in the War of Gog/Magog. What would be left of the muslim “UM” nations amounts to nothing politically, economically andespecially militarily: Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria and Mauritania.

  23. As far as the seals being outside the 70th week – in my opinion they would still have to occur before the rapture. The seal judgements, as are all of the judgments of Revelation, are directed at the enemies of God – an apostate Israel who will only come to repentance during the final battle for Jerusalem and the Gentile nations who hate God and hate Israel. The only time that there are only enemies of God left on earth is immediately after the rapture, since there are some gentiles who will be saved during the tribulation and of course the Jewish Remnant who will receive Jesus as Messiah. I know that the True church will not go through any part of the tribulation because that is a time of judgement, and according to the Bible – Galatians 2:20 to be exact – all true believers have already been condemned, punished and sealed for eternity.

    “I am crucified with Christ…..” I already took the punishment I derserved in Him, thank you Jesus!!!!

  24. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Patrick – The rapture may occur before the seals as you believe but you assume that all that all that are not in the Church are enemies of God. Does that include everyone who died in all history before the New Covenant Church? You also are not quite getting our point. We think the first five seals are not in the time of the 70th week for the Jews. I think some that ultimately can be identified with the Bride go through some tribulation on earth. In the very wording of the fifth seal we see that these martyrs are identified with all previous saints who were martyred before them. The Church of Christ has always been in tribulation. The fifth seal is the apex of it but that does not mean it occurs in the final seven years for the Jews. I do not think the Bride is complete at the fifth seal, rapture or no rapture. Yet, don’t get me wrong, I do think there is a blessed hope for those found faithfully watching and waiting but Jesus identified with seven church types in Revelation. Nevertheless, only Philadelphia was actually promised to be kept out of the great trial on earth? I think we totally buy into theology of popular teachers that really turns out to be subjective interpretations of eschatology.

  25. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Sean,

    Actually the proposed union by Nicholas Sarkozy of France was called the Mediterranean Union in some press releases that I read.
    http://www.undispatch.com/archives/2008/07/the_mediterrane.php

    I do not know if the M.U. acronym was used by those that proposed it or if that was my own creation. That really does not really matter because the acronym does not change the proposal or the proposed boundaries.

    I do agree that this proposal met with resistance by the EU and has not got off the ground but that does not mean that what Sarkozy proposed will not get new life if the EU boundaries of today fall apart during a time of world war and civil upheaval in Europe. I really am not suggesting that this alliance of nations on the boundaries of the Old Roman Empire will be formed before the next world war.

    Like I said, nobody thinks the EU will retain its present boundaries anyway? I think if we are going to have a revived Roman Empire it probably should look like one. The EU today goes way beyond the boundaries of ancient Rome but it does not include the Mediterranean States of ancient Rome. Sarkozy’s proposal does, and it eliminates the part of East Europe that was never in the Roman Empire. His proposed boundaries even eliminates Ireland who up to this point has blocked he Lisbon treaty.

    Point four of yours, is assuming you are right in the sequence of these wars and that both wars take place before the 70th week of Daniel. Although I tend to agree with that time sequence for these wars I cannot be dogmatic about it. Supposing it is correct, it still does not rule out a Mediterranean Union or a modified EU that fits the proposed Nicholas Sarkozy boundaries. I am not suggesting that the Muslims nations you mentioned have anything to do with anything other than being absorbed by a much larger revised Roman Empire. I think most will identify with the rising world religious Harlot after the wars you mention. So they being Muslim today is really not in my revived Roman Empire equation. Like Bill Salus said, “Islam will be greatly diminished” The Antichrist will come out of the revived Roman Empire.

  26. nasraniNo Gravatar says:

    I would just like to bring to your attention that there is a Union for the Mediterranean which is part of the so-called Barcelona process. The MU apparently does exist in some form but it appears to have little actual power or relevance. It should also be noted that the Mediterranean states feel very much connected to each other. This is something I did not understand myself but apparently the French feel very connected to other nations that border the Mediterranean Sea, even those that technically do not belong to Europe.

    The more I look at the direction we’re going, the more I think that a MU type of organization is what we will be aiming at in the future. I think that mainly because of Russia’s behavior. I don’t know if any of you’ve been paying close attention to Russia’s leadership but they are clearly antagonizing NATO, the EU and its former Soviet subjects. They will not tolerate that former Soviet states turn against Moscow, Eastern Europe’s former Soviet Big Brother.

    With Euroskepticism running high in countries like the Netherlands, the UK and Poland, I don’t see how the European Union can continue to function in the way it does today, unless they take away even more rightful sovereignty from the peoples of Europe and somehow manage to set up a functional military. I don’t think that the majority of Europeans will continue to put up with this nonsense from elitist politicians that betray their own people in the pursuit of their political wet dreams. Also, many people do not want Turkey in the EU, and they are absolutely right. Sarkozy rightfully objects to Turkey in the EU so what he suggests is for Turkey to join the MU as an alternative way of maintaining close relations.

    As NATO has shown, military structures don’t seem to go away that easily. The question is whether they will ever be able to set up an European military. I think not. France has now formally become a full NATO member again. So apparently it looks like the whole idea of a European military is losing ground. The European nations alone would never go to war with Russia anyway. And no matter how much European (safe for a few pro-American reactionaries like myself) like to display their contempt of the United States, they still apparently want to make sure they have Uncle Sam on their side to protect us wimps in case of military problems.

    Now with the US having its own domestic and external problems in the Middle East, Afghanistan, NATO failing in Afghanistan (they actually are asking for Russian assistance), and the worrisome situation in Pakistan, I think that they will eventually have to realize that their EU is not ever going to be a fully independent and viable counterweight to Russia, China and the United States, especially. The Baltic states, the Ukraine and the Caucasian states will be devoured by Russia if they continue to ignore Moscow, insist on joining NATO and don’t give up their aspirations of eventually becoming EU members.

    Historically, these states have been part of Imperial Russia for centuries, and they have major Russian minorities which are favorable to the Russia. Let’s not also forget that Russia is a federation of states! I see many of the former Soviet states ending up as states belonging to an expanded Russian Federation, and a smaller EU emerging that which will then look to North Africa (French former colonies) for its natural resources.

    So a MU-like organization may be an outcome of such a situation. I remember Louis Michel, former Belgian minister of foreign affairs and high-ranking EU diplomat, suggesting that North African states join the EU several years ago. So there’s really nothing new here. This is Eurabia already anyway. There’s little doubt in my mind that this is how Europe will look like in a few decades or perhaps much sooner if the European-Russian relations further deteriorate. I only wonder what Turkey will decide to do. I strongly doubt they’re ever going to end up in the EU. Most likely they will want to remain on good terms with Russia instead, or perhaps function as a buffer state and trade hub between the MU and the Russian Federation.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents… I won’t get into the prophetic side of these matters. I’ll leave that up to you experts. :)

  27. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Nasrani, I think what you said makes a lot of sense. As for the military or lack of it in Europe lets suppose that there are WMD attacks in cities in Europe. I then see a civil backlash from the natives against the Muslims immigrants that are not assimilating all over Western Europe. It may be not unlike what happened to the Jews about 70 years prior. Can you even imagine a civil war like that against Muslims? Yet, I feel it is going to happen and tyranny will once again take control in Western Europe coming out of the native backlash. The Middle East war could bring the WMD attacks on Europe or they may come first and help bring this world war. The end results are the same. It will become a much larger world war on radical terrorism and all the states that sponsor them. I think the militarization of Western Europe will come about as a necessity to defeat radical Islam all the way to India. Moderate Arab states will have to choose to join with Europe in the fight or join with the radicals. I think Turkey will eventually side with Europe. In the aftermath of the world war then what you have left in the Middle East is secular Muslim states where government, not Islam, has the power. Nor will Jihad through violence even be allowed to be taught anymore.

    Meanwhile, Russia seeing that NATO has its hands full, moves to retake much of the same areas of the old Soviet Union. By the time of the end of the world war Russia will be in a very strong position and Western Europe will not want to challenge her much like it was in the aftermath of world war II. You might wonder about where America is in this picture? She might even help trigger this war and certainly at first will play a major role, but sooner or later she is going to be a bit player probably because of her own problems at home. A EMP or a financial collapse and/or a civil war could explain why America loses her superpower status.

    The end of the war will leave Europe to administer the lands it conquered much like America did after the second world war and Israel will be a major player in this administration because Israel conquered much of the Middle-East in their battle against the nations mentioned in Psalm 83. After the war Western Europe moves to establish a new union on the lines of its war allies and the conquered land. The lands conquered may be incorporated into the states of the victors and that could allow the expansion of Israel. Remember that Europe established most of the boundaries of Middle East nations after World War I and it can make new boundaries after World War III, perhaps this time it will be more based on tribal groups in order to end the Middle East squabbles. Then there could be a time of peace in the Middle East. This new Union on the boundaries of the Old Roman Empire will also be necessary to counter the expansion of the new expanded Russian Union who might have joined with the West in this world war to defeat radical Islam but also moved its military and influence as far south as Iran. We know at some time in the future Russia and its great new confederation of nations will come down in the war of Ezekiel 38. Then perhaps after the destruction of Russia and her confederacy the only superpower left other than the South East Asian powers is the Revised Roman Empire.

    All speculation, I know, but that’s my best guess. I said the alignment of nations after World War II in the Cold War better fit Bible eschatology than the alignment of nation in the EU and around Russia today. Perhaps World War III will once again bring an alignment of nations that better fits future eschatology.

  28. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    First, a my best wishes to all in observance of this Memorial Day.

    Don, you could not have selected a better UN aparatchik than Kenneth Bledsoe and the blog OpEd he wrote cited above. All anyone needs to know of this guy and his world glaobal governance views is their in plain sight, particularly another item in that same webapge where he takes a crack at Claudia Rosset (one of my favorite writers).

    UM or MU, it’s really make not too much difference seing that the EU swallowed up that organization and not vice versa. IAnd noted earlier it is now an active element of the “Barcelona Process” which is something Kenneth Bledsoe was kind enough to date exactly with his citing the the New York Slimes report (July 14, 2008) and confim my caveat item number 3. The problem the NYT article is that is placed those 43 nation and 800 million people in the MU, when in all reality that’s a tally which belongs to the EU.

    The real military power of the coming beast empire will consist of NATO forces as well as what ever residual combat power the US has invested in Eurpoe and the CENTCOM AO – land air, sea and strategic.

  29. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Sean, I also hope everyone will remember and honor those who paid the ultimate sacrifice for our nation on this Memorial Day.

    Actually Sean, I just picked that link at random from a Google search since it uses the term “Mediterranean Union”. I know I also heard others use that term. If the proposed Union was called “Mediterranean Union” or “Union for the Mediterranean” really makes little difference to me. I think Mediterranean Union sounds better so if they did not call it that they probably should have. Maybe the stupid name is the reason why the proposal met resistance :wink:

    I believe I read the NYT article. But I think the point of using that 800 million figure was that the UM or MU proposal by Sarkozy would include most of the EU nations. I do not know what Sarkozy was thinking but anyone should see that the present EU is not going to hold together so maybe Sarkozy was just a bit ahead of his time. Wait until the East European nations realize they joined something as bad for them as the old USSR and that the EU will throw a nation or two to the Russian dogs before it will fight. But like I said, I really do not see this realignment to the same borders of the Old Roman Empire until after the next world war.

    I agree that the coming revived Roman Empire Beast will get its power from NATO and the US is still the backbone of NATO. Those who say Europe does not have a military seem to forget or discount NATO. NATO was quite a power, it kept the Soviet Union in check during the Cold War era. I was even attached to NATO in Norway for two years. Even today it is very much a mighty power and it would still be quite formidable if it had agreement on a common enemy. Right now Europe does not want to get involved in the Middle East but after an attack on Europe with WMD they will change their view and I think we will see a real NATO war effort against radical Islam.

  30. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Patrick – Regarding the Seal judgments occuring prior to the Rapture: The Seal judgments begin in Rev. 6 suggesting that they follow sequentially both, Rev. 2 & 3 (the church on earth), Rev. 4 & 5 (the church raptured in heaven). Thus the Church is likely no longer on the earth by the time the Seals are opened.

    Don and / or Sean – Briefly list the hypotheical M.U. end time participants and point out any scriptural support that either the Antichrist and / or the 10 kings comes out from a supposed end times M.U. Is the M.U. hypothesis suppose to be a convergence of the East / West split of the Roman Empire?

  31. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Good day Bill,

    I think I already said that I tend to think that the ten kings are leaders of 10 world regional governments. I do not rule out that they might come out of the area of the Old Roman Empire but that is hard to picture right now. However, things do change in time of war. If they do it would be hard to define the nations since today we do not see only 10 nations in the EU or the hypothetical MU. The closest anyone can come to picking ten nations is to fall back to the ten Charter members of the EU. Life was so much more simpler for Bible prophecy teachers when the Common Market had less then ten members.

    The scriptural support for the Antichrist coming out of this Roman Empire is the same as yours. The prince that will sign the covenant comes from a revived Roman Empire. The people that destroy the Temple. All I am really saying is that the revived Roman Empire will not be limited to the membership of the EU today. It will probably include the name nations that it did in Jesus’ day and some Eastern nations now in the EU will leave and go with Russia or form their own alliance.

    Here is a good history and update on the original MU agreement now called the UM. The nations have changed somewhat from what Sarkozy first proposed in 2006.

    http://www.wnponline.org/wnp/wnp0808/mediterranean-union-roman-empire.htm

    The map of the nations of what the leaders first proposed seems to have disappeared from the Internet.
    Rapture Ready had a link comparing the Sarkozy proposal and the old Roman Empire but now the MU part of the link is dead.
    Here is the present proposed boundaries of the Union for the Mediterranean
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Union_for_the_Mediterranean_(lambert_azimuthal_projection).svg

    Here is some more background information on the Union.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Union

    Here is a map of the different phases of the Roman Empire.
    http://www.bible-history.com/maps/roman_empire.html

    The Roman Empire boundaries changed over time and I did not think the MU or EU boundaries will be exactly known until after the world war. I do think it will include nations that were both in the East and West after the Roman Empire split. I would like to think that the revived Roman Empire of Daniel will be about the same as the Roman Empire when Jesus got cut off.

    http://www.bible-history.com/maps/roman_empire.html

  32. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Don thanks for the clarification. I reviewed the links. I believe that in the aftermath of Ps. 83 and Ez. 38, the geopolitical world situation will be dramatically different than it is today. At least twenty major population will be severely altered by the time the Antichrist rises to power. These populations include at least Israel, the ten members of the Ps. 83 Arab confederacy, and the nine members of mish mash ethnicities in Ez. 38.

    Presently the wikipedia Union of the Med. lists several of these populations. I understand that you are not speculating which nations will be in the final M.U. equation. Perhaps the expanse of the revived Roman Empire may be inclusive of some of the M.U. countries, however then that leaves the origin of the Antichrist up to a fair degree of speculation.

    I still tend to gravitate toward the developing E.U. scenariio because it, above all the others, most comfortably fits within the Daniel 9:26 framework. Some of the Eastern leg of the former Roman empire may be part of the revived empire, however the Assyrian Beast from East scenario troubles me because I don’t believe Assyria (Syria & Northern Iraq formerly), will be much left in tact after the two above wars.

  33. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don and Hi Bill,

    Speaking of Sarkozy – keep an eye on him. In his lineage he is Jewish and Greek. When it comes to the Antichrist I believe genealogical links are important; it may very well be all about a historical birthright.

    I’m going to segue here over to Bill’s question: “Briefly list the hypothetical M.U. end time participants and point out any scriptural support that either the Antichrist and / or the 10 kings comes out from a supposed end times M.U. Is the M.U. hypothesis supposed to be a convergence of the East / West split of the Roman Empire?”

    Bill, I would at this point cite only the four (4) most obvious participants because they’ve been specifically identified through prophetic Scripture: Rome (Italy), Greece, Persia (Iran) and Babylon (Iraq). I count these four among the ‘ten toes’ Daniel received the interpretation of from within Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdoms dream. I would offer that the other six (6) remain obscured because that portion of Daniel’s vision remains sealed up.

    I would offer that there appears to be an exceptionally salient reason why the Lord imparted upon the prophet Daniel such detail in minutia about the Macedonian-Greek Empire of Alexander the Great and its aftermath, and the reference to Greece in general as you shall see next. The full extent of that reason is currently unknown in full, we only see the obvious portion, but it exists nevertheless. I believe it is a prophetic template of what the future holds, particularly Daniel 11, verses 21 through 45.

    In a nutshell and through a time dilated view of history, we have Alexander the Great to begin with. His four chief generals (the Diadochi) receive their kingdoms through the Partition of Triparadisus of 320 BC.

    Here I will focus where I believe Daniel has divinely focused our attention for us. Seleucus, Alexander’s “chief-of-staff” from among the four generals, took the name Seleucus I Nicator. The direct heirs to his kingdom (Seleucid Empire) number seven (7) Greek-speaking Macedonian elite until the Roman Empire’s primacy is established in this region. Those heirs were Antiochus I Soter, Antiochus II Theos, Seleucus II Callinicus, Seleucus III Ceranus, Antiochus III the Great, Seleucus IV Philopater and, finally Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

    This is where Daniel 11:21 ends and the future Antichrist begins, which is to say, the future Antichrist picks up where his direct prophetic forebear – and possibly direct genetic ancestor – left off.

    In 168 BC during Antiochus IV Epiphanes reign he personally bowed his submission before Rome outside of Alexandria, Egypt. He was enraged and returned northward to Jerusalem. He slaughtered thousands of Jews, and stood up in the Temple a statue of Zeus-Olympus which is the first, direct example, a prophetic template, of the coming (second) abomination of desolation – a repeat which will occur in almost near-identical fashion. Antiochus IV Epiphanes is said to have died of some disease near Susa in the ancient province of Elam (modern western Iran).

    I’m going to jump to Revelation 13:1 where John, on the Greek island of Patmos, took directly from the Father to the Son to John a prophecy about this “Beast”. Please follow me here with your own Bible open to this chapter and verse. Revelation 13:1 is actually a continuation of the text of Revelation 12, verses 17 and 18. Notice where Satan is standing as we move into chapter 13!

    And the key words therein:
    sand of the sea -(innumerable population from the West/Mediterranean)
    I saw a beast -(Gk: therion – a bestial man)
    rise up out of -(the same sand and the sea where Satan is left standing!)
    having 7 heads -(7th in a line of Seleucid leaders)
    and 10 horns -(the 7 plus the 3 previous and conquered but in reverse order Greece, Persia, Babylon)
    and upon his [seven] heads the name of Blasphemy.

    What was the ‘name of the blasphemy’ that Antiochus IV Epiphanes stood up in the Temple? That name was ZEUS OLYMPUS!

    Revelation 13:2 confirms this and the reverse order of the ancient kingdoms AND that this coming Antichrist will pick up where is direct forebear left off. There are three more key words in Revelation 13:2 which reveal this man will be directly powered by Satan. His strength and ability to both exist and to perform his given abilities will be by virtue of his being – Satan. His seat is his throne, his kingship as it was his forebear, and his authority (GK: exousia) is the power to do by will; a physical and mental power of authority over the rest of mankind.

    So, how central of a role does Greece/Macedonia play? I would say, other than Israel, Greece/Macedonia has a pivotal role to play.

  34. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean & Bill good information. Sorry I took so long to post your comments. I was not available yesterday.

    Sean – that was some very interesting information and observations. I really need to do further study on all that you said

    Bill – let me first say to change your picture you have to create your own gavatar. The easiest way to do that I know of is to sign up with the following site and then upload a picture of yourself as your avatar. http://en.gravatar.com/
    It should then follow you on all sites that allow avatars. If you do not have a gavatar my software assigns one of these silly faces by default. The only way you can change it is to change your email address but it has to be valid if you want to be notified of follow-up comments. I think I will change the default to that of a pattern, rather than these silly faces. Many do not like being identified with these pictures.

    I agree that maps of many nations will be redrawn before the Antichrist. I do not suggest that the Antichrist is from the Eastern leg of the Roman Empire. I just leave open the possibility that someone with Assyrian blood could be the Antichrist just as someone with Greek, Spanish, Italian, Jewish etc. blood could be the Antichrist. Whatever the Antichrist ethnicity he will still rule the revived Roman Empire which I believe will be headquartered in Western Europe and probably in Rome.

    Those who are looking for a Assyrian Beast from the East generally believe that Islam is the Beast. I totally disagree with the whole Muslim Antichrist concept. If anyone reading still wants to know why, I have at least four posts on that topic. Just type in “Muslim Antichrist” in the search box and you will find them (but you do have to go to the blog homepage to do the search).

  35. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Sean – that is a fascinating interpretation. Is it unique? Like Don – I’ll have to spend some research time on it.

  36. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don & Bill,

    Brothers, the interpretation above is just one portion of a an interpretation that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I’ve been pursuing for some time now, and continue working on incessantly. It is truly a work in progress.

    I have always believed, at least since I was baptized in the Spirit in the early 70s, that the Book of Daniel held and still does hold many of the keys to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Daniel’s prophecies were cited verbatim by our Lord during His ministry in the Holy Land, and in effect He was quoting Daniel via the Father’s, His own and the Spirit’s onmiscience and omnipresence. As we all know only Scripture interprets Scripture precisely unless it’s a direct revelation from the Godhead.

    I’ve used some of this body of eschatological research previously, albeit sparingly, in refuting some of the key proponents of an “Islamic” antichrist. None of the Scriptural points backed by historical facts that I raised have been refuted thus far by those proponents. They have in the past couple of months gone silent and have avoided further contact with yours truly.

    However, and most importantly right here and now, what I wrote above is the product of some very recent study in which the Spirit caused me to specifically focus on Daniel 11 and Revelation 12/13. To the best of my knowledge what I wrote above has not been written about before. I was quite literally beside myself and praising the Lord when the direct prophetic connection of these two became apparent. And there is yet more to come.

  37. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean – We will look forward to your work. What you are saying about the importance of the detail in Daniel only makes sense. If everything were straight forward Daniel would not be a sealed book until the time of the end. We need some fresh in-depth well thought through thinking on some issues and then others need to determine through the Bible if those things could be so. For example, the popular interpretations about “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven,” (Rev 17:11) have not been fully explained to my full satisfaction.

    I still need to sit down and actually consider what you said yesterday. I printed it out so that hopefully I will get a chance to sit down and sift through what you said.

  38. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    Yes, indeed, Rev. 17:9-11 were the particular verses which caused me to begin counting “heads.” This was the only thing in history which makes any sense as the succession and sequence of leaders once General Seleucus inherited virtually all of the Babylonian, Persian and eastern Greek/Macedonian realms, all of which included most of the former Assyrian Empire. Then with Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the precursor or template Antichrist) we have capitulation to the Fourth Beast empire which was Imperial Rome.

    I have found that by studying the historical person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes the personality traits ascribed by Daniel were all there in vivid detail. There is no question that he was the beast, is not and will be the 8th. There is a direct tie-in to Babylon, Rome and the precursor antichrist.

  39. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean – I studied closely what you said from Daniel and Revelation and just about everything you said is my understanding of these passages as well.

    The only questionable interpretation is who you think make up the ten kings or horns.

    I observed in your statement that you think the Antichrist will take over from where Antiochus IV Epiphanes left off. That makes sense to me but what are you saying? Are you saying that you believe the Antichrist will come out of Greece? I can see that happening.

    A Muslim vs West Europe Conflict is what I think brings this Antichrist figure into power. A Greek connection makes the passage that says this man will come into power with a small amount of people make sense. Perhaps it could all start over a Greek backlash to a attack from Muslims on Greeks in Cyprus. On the other hand, it could be more like what I have been suggesting all along where Western Europe will get involved in a war against Radical Islam. Then I also can see violence on Cyprus between the Muslims and Greeks with the same end result. That end result being Turkey, Egypt and other Muslim nations waring against the European NATO alliance. Then all the power of NATO would become the army of the Antichrist.

  40. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean – I know he is a type, but are you saying that your believe Antiochus IV Epiphanes will rise from the dead?

  41. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I’m looking simultaneously at Revelation 9, 11:6, 13 and 17, and at all of Daniel’s descriptions of the man who will be antichrist. It appears to me that the man, right from the get-go, is possessed by a demon which comes up out of the abyss, from the bottomless pit, also knoiwn as sheol. (Rev. 17:8). This is the world of the dead. Antiochus IV Epiphanes is dead. (See Luke 8:26-31).

    I asked a question at this point in my study: Where is it stated in Scripture that prior to or during the Tribulation has Satan himself been cast into the abyss? Where does Scripture say that he has existed for the past 2000 years since he tempted Christ? So how can the Beast, if he is satan incarnate come up out of the abyss? Satan is not bound and thown into the abyss by one of God;s angels until Revelation 20

    It appears to me that antichrist will be possessed by another demon spirit from the abyss, from sheol, and then at mid-Tribulation his body dies a mortal death and he is re-animated – resurrected – and indwelt by Satan himself for the final 3.5 years of the great tribulation.

    He once was, is not, and yet will come again. Revelation 17:11 “The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.” I think this verse speaks to a beast, who was a human king and becomes a human king again, and then goes to final destruction. So, yes, I am thinking Antiochus IV Epiphanes, or the same demon who possessed him back in circa 167 BC, will return yet again.

  42. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean – The Nero and Judas fans are not going to like your view :cry:

    Seriously though, what you suggest needs some follow-up comments. I agree with you that Satan is not in the abyss. So I have no problem with a demon possessing the man who will become the Beast/Antichrist prior to the final 3 1/2 years. Antiochus IV Ephiphanes, Nero, Judas, etc. were men and men are appointed once to die so obviously none of these men are going to get a physical body of flesh on earth again. So then we must get into the actual demon or demons that possessed these men and acted out their role. Men do not become demons when they die so obviously we are saying that demons posses men and get them to act out a role. So that makes me wonder who did this demon possess before Antiochus IV Epiphanes? I guess it could have been more than one person, perhaps even going back to Nimrod. Could the same demon also have possessed people forward and have entered into Judas and Nero? That would certainly make many Bible prophecy students happy. Maybe everyone is right :grin:

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes at the time of the Revelation would qualify on the Revelation 17:11 statement but would he qualify as one of the seven kings? I am not convinced of that. Most think the Kings were the heads of seven world kingdoms and Daniel’s four Kingdom’s would seem to support that with the last being Rome. So how does Antiochus IV Epiphanes fit into that head of world kingdom equation, why not Alexander? I guess you are going to tell me they are wrong and thus hurt my little head and say something like Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the seventh king in the Antiochus family tree?

    Also if Satan incarnates this Antichrist for the last 3 1/2 years does the demon go back to the abyss or does he actually go into the False Prophet? It always seemed to me that there was something strange about the False Prophet because he seemed to be more the Antichrist then the Antichrist while the first Beast takes more of a God role. No matter who the demon possessed before he possesses the man of sin, be it Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, Judas etc, it would still seem to me that the False Prophet ends up with the same demon that the Beast/Antichrist out of the sea had.

    This tread just goes to show that we are all still learning and do not have eschatology all figured out. The more I learn the more I know why Bible prophecy teachers never agree on points of eschatology.

    By the way, I just did a Google search on the term “seven heads of Revelation”. I looked at ten different sites in the top listings at random. Every site had a different interpretation of who the kings were. Not one of them was even close to the interpretation of any other. Yet, they all taught it as biblical truth.

  43. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    Yes, there are probably many who will not like the interpretation I’m working on. That’s ok though, I’ll go where the Spirit leads.

    It will be some demon who has apparently possessed others as you relate above… and possibly one which has been focused on Israel, even including Hitler, Judas, Nero, et al.

    Alexander most certainly was one of those kingdoms, but Alexander largely ignored Israel, they were small fry to him. He was in search of bigger game.

    I reconcile Antiochus IV Epiphanes in this way:

    Many cite Assyria as one of those 7 kingdoms. Antiochus happened to be the 7th king of the Seleucid Empire which itself was the inheritor of that particular crown or of the three crowns formerly worn by Alexander: Babylon (Seleucus (a/k/a Seleucus I Nicator) founded the Seleucid Empire in Babylon, Persia (Nicator’s Empire went easterd all the way to the Indus River) and except for Ptolemy’s Egyptian, the Seluecid had, for a time, the Greek/Macedonian kingdom added to his kingdoms “portfolio.” Many Jews, and even some modern eschatologists, will refer to these Seleucid kings as “Assyrian.” I think there is a keen distinction between Assyria (Asshur) and Aram (Syria). One of Seleucid capitols, Seleucia, was near the site of ancient Asshur, and also Nimrod. The other was Antioch, in modern day southern Turkey, near the Syrian border.

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the final Seleucid king and he personally acceeded to Roman military authority in Alexandria Egypt in 166-167 BC. This is where the “cross the line in the sand” phrase originated. The Roman Senator, Gaius Popillius Laenas, issued Antiochus an ultimatum, and drew a line in a complete circle in the sand around Antiochus feet and told him to decide his course of action before he stepped out of that circle. Antiochus acknowledged Roman authority, thus avoiding war with the Rome, but it enraged him nevertheless and Antiochus took his wrath out on Israel, ultimately standing up the statue of Zeus Olympus in the 2nd Temple – the same Temple the Romans destroyed in 70 AD in literal fulfillment of Daniel 9:26.

    In of all this is see a consistent historical and prophetic flow. However, you are also correct, we are still learning many eschatological fine points, and there are more interpretations than we can shake a stick at. My search, as for most all of us, is to seek that which Scripture supports because in the end only that interpretation is 100% correct.

  44. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I think the same demon working through many men concept is interesting and probably true.

    I guess the seven heads are whoever authors wants them to be. I have now looked at twenty of the top sites under those keywords and have got twenty completely different answers as to there identification, and I am not kidding. I think I will punt and kick this football further down the road. Of course other people are free to discuss this if they want.

  45. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    This is a difficult topic to be sure. Punting is probably a good option. :)

    I’ll add one more comment for consideration.

    In Rev 17 we are told that the 7 heads are both the seven mountains upon which the woman sits (as of circa 90-95 AD, that was Rome) and also 7 kings: 5 fallen, 1 is, and 1 yet to be (to come) for a short while.

    My guess on the 5 fallen empires(kings) that were: Asshur(Assyrian), Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian/Greek and Seleucid (as an inheritor of the previous)

    The 6th (that is) was Rome (circa 90-95 AD, and as an inheritor of all previous empires or “kingships”.

    The 7th (that is to come) AND is also the 8th is Rome II.

    I would interpret this to mean that Rome II exists in two parts. The 7th and the 8th. The 7th is the demon-possessed man known as Antichrist, in the first half ofDaniel’s 70th Week; makes the covenant among many. The 8th is the same man, assassinated but resurrected and indwelt by Satan as the 8th.

  46. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I do not know about your choice of empires and kings but I do agree with the rest of what you said. The real difficulty to me in this passage is determining who the King “that once was and that is to come” really is. I hear different takes on that and I am undecided about who fills that role but when I looked at twenty different website articles about these seven heads it is amazing what some “Bible teachers” come up with. Like seven world economic systems, or seven phases of the Roman Catholic Church, or seven Popes, or even seven Presidents in America. Then the allegorical interpretations are a real treat to read. The kings to them represent seven phases of the Christian walk, or seven steps through purgatory (I am making that up… I think). It is enough to make a serious student of Bible prophecy want to force feed them a scroll.

  47. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    The only rationale I could come up with to list Asshur(Assyrian) as the first among the 5 fallen is due to the role that empire played in the Lords judgment of the northern Kingdom is Israel. The other four figure prominently in judgements against Judah.

  48. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Justin, thanks for the link it looks like Chris agrees with me that the MU will be the real revised Roman Empire and not the present alignment of nations that comprise the EU today. I think I will do a separate post on this article

  49. Reading Iraelestine gave me a new perspective on the order of the end time wars. Some folks are still wanting to make Ezekiel 38-39 the final battle (Armegeddon) but I don’t believe so. Israel is certainly not in a peaceful, secure place after the breaking of the covenant at mid-week and the ensuing persecution of the Jews by AntiChrist. No, Bill’s premise that the deal with the AC is to neutralize Israel rather than defend her from Islam (which has been disemboweled by Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39). Of interest in this whole scenario is the fact that a huge natural gas discovery was made just of the coast of Israel (8 trillion cubic ft.) and two companies at this moment are drilling down to and beyond the permian structures under Joseph and Asher. I believe they will find the Mother of all oil pools (Asher will dip her foot in oil – the hidden treasures of the deep) and this will be the main reason that Russia comes after Israel.

  50. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    I also saw this report and it immediately reminded me about this discussion. The main point I got from the new report, however, is that the EU president will hold the real power.

    I continue to believe that yet to occur prophetic events will dramatically and irrevocably alter the nations we see in the MU today. Beginning with the “inner ring” Arab** nations around Israel (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi and Egypt). They will be toast by the time Psalm 83 is completely fulfilled. Then Libya and Turkey will be destroyed along with iran and the Russian-dominated regions to the north by God in the War of Gog/Magog. The armies of Gog will be burind in what is today western Jordan, but at that time will be Israel proper. These wars are pre-Tribulation/Daniel’s 70th Week wars – so the rise of the Beast Empire will be preceeded by an entirely new Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean geo-political and military power paradigm.

    **I’ve also got something in progress regarding a new look at the “Arabs” and the 12 God- blessed “sons of Ishmael.” I am coming to learn that they ARE NOT one and the same as I’ve been taught over these many years. This links directly to the military defeats and outright destruction which is coming upon the “Arabs” in Is.17, Ps. 83 and Ez. 38/39.

  51. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I also believe the head of the EU will hold the real power if it is still called the EU. Heck, the name could change and it could even be called the Holy Roman Empire by the end of the wars, especially if Catholic Marian deception is involved in the defeat of Islam.

    I pretty much agree with the inner-ring outer-ring theory of Bill Salus but I have to admit I am having some difficulty reconciling a pretrib Ezekiel war with all the words of Ezekiel and Joel unless Ezekiel’s prophecy speaks about two different northern army wars and Joel is talking about the latter. There is still a lot we still do not know about Christian eschatology.

  52. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Sean I’m curious to hear more about the 12 sons of Ishmael. I just completed an article coming out next week calle Prophecy Shocker! Saudi Peace Plan found in Bible! Jeremiah 12:6 connected to God’s Roadmap in Rev. 1214-17.

    Don regarding Pre-Trib Ezek. 38 & 39 listen in to my prophecy update radio interview at http://www.prophecyupdateradio.blogspot.com with Dr. Ron Rhodes, just posted part 1. He is the author of Northern Storm Rising and we discuss how EZ. 38 should conclude, not commence at least 3.5 years before the Tribulation begins, because the Jews won’t be burning weapons but fleeing for their lives in the second half of the Trib. (That segment may be on part 2 actually?).

    Many blesssssssings to you both
    Bill

  53. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill, I really cannot listen to Internet radio because I only have a 28k connection. That should change after I move to the woods next month then I will be forced to get satellite Internet. Anyway, I have been teaching the same thing for many years. I outline it in my Revelation Commentary. I see the Antichrist coming when the world expects some kind of Christ to appear seven years after either the Rapture and/or the intervention in the war of Ezekiel. I also think the burning of the weapons stops exactly seven years after the war because the Jews have to flee to the mountains. Nevertheless, these pre-trib Ezekiel war theories raise other problems and that is why many Bible prophecy experts disagree and it is also why I get my own doubts about the timing of the Ezekiel war.

    I have yet to see one Bible prophecy teacher correlate all end time Bible prophecy passages without pretty strong conflicts. At least they seem to be conflicts on the surface. Two major wars from the North at different times would solve many of the issues but it would bring up some other issues.

    Blessings, Don

  54. The real difficulty to me in this passage is determining who the King “that once was and that is to come”

    I see this Don, as talking about Satan himself.

    Revelation 17:11: And the beast that was, (was God’s number one cherubim) and is not, (he lost the job) even he is the eighth, (the 8th king as he indwells the Antichrist leader) and is of the seven, (he worked with the other 7 previous notable kings of the past which were either previous Roman emperors or other great infamous leaders) and goeth into perdition (he is hell bound).

  55. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I believe there is a powerful time-line indicator in the last verse from Ezekiel on the Gog/Magog War. See Ezekiel 39:29. Here is what I have had to say about it in my blog.

    “And finally, in verse 29 (“Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.”), we see what I believe is a grammatical past-tense confirmation that the promised saving of all Israel by the Old Testament prophets and by the Apostle Paul (see Romans 11) will have been accomplished no later than the conclusion of the War of Gog/Magog, thereby and according to Dispensationalists such as myself, the Harpazo, the Rapture of the Bride of Christ will have occurred and the Church age will have passed into history, and planet Earth will have arrived on the doorstep of Daniel’s 70th Week of Year, the 7-year Tribulation, which will conclude with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His millennial Kingdom.”

    Bill,

    I am learning that it is probably very important to note that “the Arabs” do not not nessarily constitute the sum of “the sons of Ishmael” to whom God gave his blessings (Genesis 16 & 17). This is a misconception which has long been taught to Christians the world over and my own recent studies have convinced me of its validity.

    The Twelve blessed sons of Ishmael were: (Nabajoth (Nabateans), Kedar, Abdeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar (Hadad), Tema, Jetur, Nephish, and Kedemah) …

    These 12 should not be confused with those forefathers of other Middle Eastern tribes which the Lord did not bless:

    A.) The 13 sons of Joktan who are the forefathers of the Arabian tribes of Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerh, Jadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba (Yemen), Ophir, Havieah, and Jobab…

    B.) The 2 sons of Raamah which begat the Arabian tribes of Sheba, Dedan…

    C.) The 2 sons of Mizraim which begat the Philistine tribes of Casluhim and Caphtorim.

    D.) The 2 sons of Lot, Moab and Ben-Ami, who begat the Moabites and Ammonites.

    E.) The 1 son of Kemuel, Aram, who begat the Arameans (i.e. ancient Syrians)

  56. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean,

    I am confused. If the house of Israel is saved before the conclusion of the war of Ezekiel as you said, then are you saying that Israel is saved before the tribulation??

    That is one of the major problems with the pre-trib Ezekiel war view. The passage you quoted would indicate God pours out his Spirit on Israel near the end of the tribulation as would Zec 12:9 and other passages. Of course putting it at near the end of the tribulation brings up other issues.

    I do agree that the sons of Ishmael are more than just the Arabs

    Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

  57. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Edward,

    I think that dog won’t hunt. But that passage could be talking about a demon that possesses both kings.

  58. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don.

    I don’t believe that the War of Gog/Magog occurs during Daniel’s 70th Week, but preceeds it.

    All of the Arab nations of the “inner ring” will have been militarily defeated after Isaiah 17/Psalm 83.

    That conflict is the precipitator for the war of Ezekiel 38/39.

    By the time the beast is revelaed at the “covenant among many” Islam is destroyed, many of the Arabs (Ishmael’s blessed descendants) will be worshipping YHWH and realize that Yeshua is the Messiah, Russia, Iran, Turkey and the “outer ring” of muslim nations will have been destroyed.

    Only the newly enlarged and massively powerful Israel, the empire of the antichrist and the kings of the east are the major world powers spoken of as extant in Daniel’s 70th Week.

    The beast conquers Israel during this era, and the new believing Israel is harbored in Petra.

    It is generally accepted that the Bride will have been caught up in the Harpazo prior to Israel receving the Lord’s pouring out of His Spirit.

  59. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean,

    I realize that you think the Gog war is pre-trib that has been my view as well but you really did not answer my last question. Are you saying that the house of Israel is saved before the seven year tribulation?

    You quoted in your prior post the following passage about the Gog war.

    “Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel“,

    You then also said,

    “the promised saving of all Israel by the Old Testament prophets and by the Apostle Paul (see Romans 11) will have been accomplished no later than the conclusion of the War of Gog/Magog”

    So if the God’s Spirit is poured out on all Israel and the Gog war is pre-trib. How can Israel not know Jesus Christ?

    I think some with your view believe there is a difference between the house of Israel believing in YHWH at the end of Gog war and the accepting of Jesus as Lord near the end of the tribulation.

    The problem with that view with many Bible prophecy students is that scriptures seems to make no such distinction and it even conflicts with that concept.

    Can you point out any scriptures that would support that first the house of Israel comes to belief in YHWH and then more than seven years years later they accept Jesus Christ? I can see why such a suggestion will be rejected by most.

    If you can build a case from scripture it would be easier to accept. How can Israel have the Spirit as pointed out in Ezekiel 39:29 and not have the knowledge of Christ? Why would God send Israel through a seven year tribulation if He had already poured out His Spirit on them at the end of the pre-trib Gog war?

    Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Can you clear this up?

  60. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I am researching this. One thing I would note immediately is that the Bride of Christ has been persecuted relentlessly – and this was after Pentecost and the indwelling of the Bride by the Holy Spirit. Our forebears were fed to Roman lions, and worse.

    Why should Israel’s conversion to redemption be any different from the experience of the “grafted in branch” after having received the Messiah?

  61. DonNo Gravatar says:

    If you find any answers from scripture let us know.

    I would say that Israel has been going through persecution as well for rejecting their Messiah. Just the last Jewish holocaust killed 1/3 or the Jews on the earth. In any case, why would Israel be persecuted after the whole house of Israel received her King? I think one of the main points of Jacob’s trouble is to put Israel in a place where she will seek God and acknowledge their offense of killing the Messiah that God sent them. Remember also that in the first half of the tribulation we have the two witnesses and the 144,000, so if Israel already knows the Lord at that point what would be their purpose? Why would a saved Israel even get into a covenant with the Antichrist?

  62. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Don and Sean – Don you comment “I think some with your view (Sean’s) believe there is a difference between the house of Israel believing in YHWH at the end of Gog war and the accepting of Jesus as Lord near the end of the tribulation.”

    I firmly believe this Don. There will be some who believe in Christ as a result, with the help of the rapture and the 144,000 witnesses, either of which I don’t put entirely into the seventieth week of Daniel, but most will believe in YHWH only, and a minority of others will likely believe in neither. The evidence in the YHWH belief is that in the aftermath of Ez. 38 the Jews appear to reinstate the Mosaic Law evidenced by the “cleansing of the Land” (Mosaic Law precept) in Ez. 39:11-16. (I believe in a Pre-Trib rapture and issuing in of the 144,000 witnesses promptly thereafter).

    Additionally they will at some point along the Ps. 83 and / or Ez. 38 timeline rebuild the temple and reinstate animal sacrifices, which further evidences their re-gravitation back to the Law. Furthermore, the leaders of Israel will embrace the false covenant of Daniel 9:27, which they would not do if they were Christians at that point.

    Don you further comment “The problem with that view with many Bible prophecy students is that scriptures seems to make no such distinction and it even conflicts with that concept.”

    The distinction is similar to Ezekiel 36:24 and 36:25. It is the interval gap of time between the regathering of the Jews into Israel and the ultimate salvation of the nation, which occurs at the end of the Tribulation. This gap appears again between Ez. 37:13 and 37:14. Ez. 39:29 is a gap also. Ez. 39:7 accomplishes Ez. 36:22-24 (sanctification of God’s holy name). God will santify His name, but this does not mean Israel nor the nations will become believers necessarily, rather it puts the world on notice that God is real, powerfully sovereign, and that His name is holy. This will cause many Jews to regress back to the Mosaic Law.

    I see no conflict, thus far. The greater conflict is in the fact that Ps. 83, Ez. 38 list 19 disctinct populations that war against Israel and the Armageddon campaign involves over two hundred nations, not listed in Ps. 83 or Ez. 38. These are three differing events in my estimation. The main hint of timing on Ez. 38 is the fact that they will burning the weapons for 7 years, this suggests that the conclusion, not commencement of Ez. 38 must be at least 3.5 years before the signing of the false covenant. Mid trib the Jews will fleeing for their lives not burning weapons.

    Many Blesssssssings
    Bill Salus

  63. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill,

    That is a very good explanation. I do not disagree with that view at all but I am not sure everyone is really getting my point about my questions about what Sean said.

    Having Ezekiel 38 and 39 span the period from the Gog war until the end of the tribulation is the only way that you can make the Gog war pre-trib and then reconcile it with other late tribulation passages. By the way, your position is the position that I hold. I believe the Gog war is pre-trib but the wording in the end of Ezekiel chapter 39 goes all the way to the end of the tribulation when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh. Israel accepts Jesus near the end of the tribulation not before the tribulation even begins.

    So you are really saying there is a time gap in Ezekiel 39 which accommodates the return of all the Jews and the gathering of all the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat where God sanctifies His name by destroying all the nations that come against Israel (verse 37). I agree that has to be the case if the war is Pre-trib like we think.. If God pours out his Spirit on Israel at the end of Ezekiel chapter 39 at that point we can no longer be pre-trib. We have to be at the end of the tribulation.

    As I also said before, the reason I also believe the war of Gog is pre-trib is because of the seven years when Israel is burning the weapons of war. I do not see how that can be done in the tribulation. The burying of the radioactive dead and the burning of the weapons of war for seven years in the Millennial reign of Christ does not make sense for other reasons.

    My real difficultly here is in what Sean said, Sean did not indicate that he thought that there was a gap before Ezekiel 39:29 and seemed to make all of Ezekiel 39 pre-trib his follow up comments only enforced that view when he suggested that Israel needs to be persecuted after receiving the Lord because the Church was also persecuted. If one is going to make every word of Ezekiel 39 pre-trib then we have a problem because the wording at the end of Ezekiel 39 says the same thing as wording in other prophetic passages that talk about what God will do after the tribulation of those days.

  64. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Amen – I like it when we agree Don. I’m sure Sean will explain himself, he tends to do that well. I don’t see a national conversion of Israel into Messianic belief in Christ until the end of the Tribulation as per Hosea 5:15.
    Many blesssssssings
    Bill

  65. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I think we are on the same page Bill. I appreciate your Ezekiel 39 gap explanation it helps me explain what I have believed for a long time. I think we who think the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel Gog war is pre-trib need to be able to present sound arguments how that could be so. You are doing that.

    I think Joel gives us the sequence of the Gog war and the valley of Jehoshaphat war but if one was not aware of that concept one might think the whole book was talking about one event. I think Joel is talking about two different wars and two different covenant fulfillment’s for Israel that all take place in one generation.

    Blessings,

    Don

  66. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don and Bill.

    Sorry for the belated reply… I am burning more eschatological candles than I should at this point in time. There are so many wicks on the prophetic candle I’m holding that it might as well be a menorah – no pun intended. ;)

    The 7 year gap of Israel’s burning of the weapons and the cleansing of the Gog/Magog battlefield is the key to what I see as the return to YHWH worship (per Ezekiel 39:29) by Israel and the rebuilding the coming Temple (which might also be executed early in the immediate aftermath of the Psalm 83 prophecied defeat of the “inner ring” Arab/Islamic nations.

    This islamic religious defection from “allah” will constitute the core of Sunni Islam (as we currently understand it) and might well occur concurently with or shorty thereafter with the pouring out by the Lord of His Spirit upon at least 12,000 of every regathered Jewish tribe who will, per Jeremiah, “look upon Him who they pierced”,

    I think we’re all on the same page with respect to this exegetical timeline. These things will occur some unknown number of months or short 360-day Biblical years after the Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 events have been fulfilled.

  67. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    In the comments above that we wrote back and forth on May 25 and May 26 about the “antichrist”, I believe I have come across the answer to the “was, is not, will be” riddle in Revelation.

    First take a look at revelation 9:11

    Then see Revelation 17:8.

    Viola! Riddle solved.

    It is the fallen angelic spirit known as Abaddon/Apollyon who will ascend – he was, is not and will be – again upon the earth. This is the spirit that I surmised had possessed Antiochus IV Epiphanes and will rise at the appointed time to also possess the man who will be antichrist in Daniel’s 70th Week.

    .

  68. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Sean,

    I guess that is possible if the being that “was, is not, will be” is actually a demon. Abaddon/Apollyon is the name the Bible puts on this destroying demon that ascends out of the bottomless pit so that makes sense.

    I do have problems with the demon in the Antichrist being Apollyon since that demon is not mentioned until well into the tribulation.

    I can buy into this demon theory dwelling in multiple people through time but I still do not know where the Spirit of Satan is if the Antirchist is possessed by Apollyon or some other demon unless when Satan is cast unto the earth the demon takes over the body of the Antichrist and the Apollyon demon then goes into another person who becomes his false prophet.

    Maybe Apollyon does not possess the Antichrist at all. Maybe Apollyon possesses the False Prophet? It fits the timing of events better.

  69. john schneider says:

    I take it to believe that the Psalm 83 war will come before the Ezekiel 38-39 war…that, i don’t know for sure… there is 1 statement, that i can back up by Scripture, having to do with the Ezekiel war; it is, that the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation period, the signing/conformation of the ,eventual peace deal, Russia, invading Israel, and the beginning of the 2 witnesses’ testimony—-all these things, will happen, on the same day! the “scriptural proof” —-Daniel 9:27—-from the end of the “one week”, which is when Jesus comes back, go back, the 7 years,to arrive at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation—-Ezekiel 39:9—-note, the “setting” of the passage is the Russian invasion, it notes the 7 years of the fires of the weapons…now,”imagine” the 7 years, and a day!… there would be no fires of weapons;there is only 7 years’ worth!….Jesus will come back…go back, 7 years, to the Russian invasion, at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period—-Revelation 19 or 20, Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11—-from when the beast is thrown in the lake of fire—-that’s when Jeses comes back, go back, 42 months,which is the beast’s rein, and 1,260 days, for the 2 witnesses; that’s 7 years….so, that’s the Scripture…. check it out…?… for yourself….

  70. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I have checked it out from scripture many times and your conjectures are speculations that other people could dispute using scripture. You never mentioned how all Israel could be burning the weapons of war for fuel during the forty-two months that they fled to the mountains?

    If the timing of the Gog war was as simple as you make it out to be we would all be in agreement. It is not that simple.

  71. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I agree, those are conjecture and speculations which are refuted by a closer examination of Scripture.

    I’m probably repeating my belief here, but I believe that Ezekiel 38/39 ocurs just prior to Daniel’s 70th week based upon the past tense grammar found in Ezekiel 39:29 (And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.) which is repeated no matter which particular translation one reads.

    How do the 144,000 in Revelation 7 – the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week – become believers in Christ if not for the Lord’s ouring out of His Spirit?

    The Harpazo had occured in Revelation 4.

    And with 12,000 coming from all 12 tribes of Israel they are truly and literally representative of “all Israel” as Paul states “all Israel shall be saved” in Romans 11.

  72. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    I can’t imagine the weapons burning process continuing in the 2nd half of the Tribulation Period. The Jews will be fleeing for their lives. We appear to be given a clue by the 7 years of weapons burning that Ezekiel 38 must conclude, not commence 3.5 years before the Tribulation.

    It is doubtful that the Ezekiel invaders only bring 7 years worth of weapons to burn. They could have 8, 9, or maybe even 15 years of weapons worth of fuel. I think it possible that the reason they burn weapons only for 7 years is because that period ends at the mid – trib point and the Jews are fleeing from the Antichrist genocidal assault.

    In essence Israelis could have more enemy weapons to burn, but that’s not important to them at the time. They are probably more concerned about the existential threat of the Antichrist and that is what limits the weapons burning to only 7 years.

  73. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bill I agree that the most likely reason that the burning of weapons ends after exactly seven years is because Israel flees to the mountains. For that reason and a few others it leads me to believe that the Ezekiel Gog war ends 10 1/2 years before the return of Jesus Christ.

    Sean, you ask

    “How do the 144,000 in Revelation 7 – the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week – become believers in Christ if not for the Lord’s pouring out of His Spirit?”

    God really has poured out his Spirit on all flesh that will believe since Pentecost but Israel has rejected Jesus and thus rejected the gift of the Holy Spirit as well.

    I think these 144,000 will encounter Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit like Paul did by God’s grace. They are chosen vessels of God before the time of Israel’s repentance.

    God cannot pour out His Sprint on the whole house of Israel because of their unbelief. But when Israel sees Him coming (Zec 12:10) they will repent and believe. The sequence of events described in the passage puts it in the time that all nations come against Israel at the end of the tribulation. The nation of Israel has been like doubting Thomas they will not believe until they see Him. When they do see Him coming they will believe and they will not reject Him like the armies of the world that the Antichrist is bringing against Him.

    But, blessed are they that not seeing still believe (the Church).

  74. Bill SalusNo Gravatar says:

    Well said Don, Ezekiel 38 probably concludes, not commences, 10.5 years before the 2nd advent of Christ. Hard to argue against that assessment.

  75. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Bill,

    I agree. I cannot imagine that the burning continuines into the second 42 months when, in prophetic fact, we know with absolute certainty the Jews will be doing nothing of the sort per the words of our Lord as recorded in Matthew 24:15-22.

    I also agree that the physical mass and sheer numbers of the assorted weaponry does not constitute just that which is burned. The Lord tells Ezekiel quite clearly (verse 10) that some of that weaponry is taken and burned and the remainder is taken as the “plunder” and “pillage”spoils of war.

    What? Israel would invade, occupy, plunder and pillage Russia, Turkey, Iran, Libya and Sudan and the rest of Magog’s confederation. No, they will not. Those lands are reserved for the judgment made clear in 38:22. Instead what occurs is that Israel recieves some portion of Gog/Magog weaponry as spoil. Spoil which amounts to an increase of riches and wealth when sold, or kept thus saving Israel’s treasury from expending funds for new weaponry.

    I do not believe the man who will be Antichrist is known at this time – the “Covenant Among many” has not yet been brought into existence. Thus not only is he not known, he is not feared. Moreover, the nations of the world will not fear him as he arrives as a peacemaker, and as Jesus said “him you will receive.” The conquering Antichrist appears 42 months later upon being indwelt by Abaddon/Apollyon and committing the Abomination of Desolation.

  76. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,
    You wrote:

    “God really has poured out his Spirit on all flesh that will believe since Pentecost but Israel has rejected Jesus and thus rejected the gift of the Holy Spirit as well.”

    This is not consistent with my understanding of Deuteronomy 29:4, Isaiah 29:10 and the entirety of Romans 11, and verse 25 in particular. As a direct result of their unbelief coming out of Egypt, Israel was denied a perceptive heart, was blinded and deafened (in part) and thus did not know the hour of their visitation.

    Within His sovereignty God will make Israel’s heart perceptive, her eyes to see and ears to hear when He pours out His Spirit, and they will look upon Him whom they pieced… this is the Covenant God made with Israel per Isaiah 59:20-21, and Romans 11:29-32.

  77. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean, I do not see anything that I said contradicting those passages about Israel being blinded.

    It really is a chicken or egg argument. Sure Israel was blinded but I think Israel was blinded due to her unbelief. Was the blinding all part of God’s plan? Of course. Judas was also blinded to God’s plan but he reaps the consequences of his own actions. As does Israel today. It gets into the old God’s sovereignty/predestination, free will argument. Both are scriptural truths but how they both can be true is beyond man’s limited understanding.

  78. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    The distinction I thought I saw was that except for the “in part” portion of Jews that Paul speaks of (those Jews who we know have accepted Jesus as Messiah), how could the majority of Jews at that time and to the present have known they were rejecting the Messiah if their hearts were made imperceptive, their eyes were blinded and their ears made deaf by God to thecoming of Jesus as the lamb of God in 33 AD?

    The Jews did and do not know or comprehend their holy books regarding Christ and the prophecies of His coming. So deaf and blind and unknowing were the Jews that Jesus was forced to attempt to expalin things to Jews in simplisitc parables. In short, the Jews were rendered cluesless over the past 25 to 27 generations due to their unbelief.

    At some point just prior to Ez 39:29 God is going to reverse all that, and the bride is going to be outa here.

    God has not poured out His Spirit on the Jews but will do so at some point

  79. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Simple, they were not blinded by God they were blinded by their own unbelief.

    Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    A great many Jews did accept the Messiah or their never would have been a NT Church. Yet, Israel as a nation did not believe God. Sure Israel was blinded in part so grace could be given to all but I do not think God made anyone in Israel become unbelievers. Nevertheless, God did have chosen vessels that did attain salvation by faith.

    In any case God still has a plan for natural Israel in the Millennium so the nation will be restored but only after they are refined through the fires of the tribulation. Remember that 2/3 of the Jews will still be cut off from the land. Not all ethnic Jews are true Jews. One must believe to be a true Jew or a true Christian for that matter. There are the tares among us.

    Actually Jesus taught in parables so those blinded by Satan (the tares) in Israel would not see. That is explain in Matthew chapter 13.

    Peter said that the Holy Spirit has already been poured out on all flesh in Acts 2 16-18. Anyone that calls on the name of the Lord in this dispensation of grace to all people on earth will be saved (Rom 10:13). Best that Jews choose to do it before the time of Jacob’s trouble but most will not..

    Actually in the final analysis, all this becomes a God’s sovereignty/predestination versus free will argument and nobody has ever solved that one to the satisfaction of any vast majority.

  80. Who is the rider of the white horse (Revelation 6:1). Is it the Antichrist – the Coming Prince et al?
    If it is the Coming Prince (and I believe it is) surely then this would place the seals after the Rapture – for ‘He who letteth’ is taken out of the way prior to this Prince being revealed (2Thessalonians 2:7-8), and all the saints whom He (the Holy Spirit)has sealed would be taken out of the way at the same moment, for we are sealed unto the redemption of our bodies.

  81. DonNo Gravatar says:

    The Bible really does not tell us who the rider on the white horse is but most that take Revelation in a literal sense believe this person will become the future Antichrist. There is a possibility that it is just a great future leader. Some think it is Jesus Christ in the Church but that view is not logical to me. The Rapture probably occurs before any seals are opened. The taking out of the Church is always imminent nothing has to be revealed first from under the seals. I think it is a mistake for anyone to assume that the rapture is exactly seven years from the end it could occur long before the judgments. Enoch was taken a half of a generation before the flood.

  82. BrianNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Don
    I will hold to my view that this rider is Antichrist, but agree the rapture could occur some time prior to the signing of the covenant which initiates the Tribulation.

    I have only just discovered your site and have enjoyed the repartee.

  83. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    In Romans 11:8 Paul quotes Moses account of the Covenat of Moab as COMMANDED by God. The spiritual stupor, spiritual blindness and spiritual deafness came upon Israel. Capitalization for emphasis.

    Dueteronomy 29:4

    “GOD HAS GIVEN THEM a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,
    To this very day.”

    Jesus taught in parables because the Jews, or the most part, lived then and to this very day under the Covenat of Moab, and the Jews will remain under the Covenant of Moab until God, in His Sovereignty, pours out His Spirit upon the Jews thus removing the spiritual stupor, blindness and deafness.

    This was repeated by the prophet Isaiah in chapter 29 verse 10.

    “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.”

  84. DonNo Gravatar says:

    It was because of unbelief. Many Jews did not have spiritual blindness. They were in fact the early Church.

    The New Covenant of Jer 31:31 was received by some Jews and it was received by many Gentiles that became grafted in. One day the whole house of Israel will receive this covenant by God Grace just as the Gentile receive it by Grace now. At that time, the New Covenant will be completely fulfilled.

  85. BrianNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    I have looked again at Revelation 6 and can see your point regarding ambiguity in the identity of the rider of the white horse… If the three other riders represent the consequence of war, why try identifying the rider of the white horse as anything other than a representation of the cause of war; a war that could arise from a general desire of nations for world peace (as you suggest might happen), a peace that can only be gained and retained by strong military action.

    However the crown does imply a particular individual, and the anti-Christ ‘fills the bill’. In making war against the saints (Daniel 7:21), and in uprooting three of the ten horns, he would amply fulfil the phrase “conquering and to conquer” and would be the catalyst for ushering in the consequences of war as represented by the other riders.

    It is my understanding that these things will occur early in, and during the first three and one half years, with the fifth seal revealing the deaths of the saints that have occurred during this time of anti-Christ consolidating his rule.

    I would like to be clearer on the sixth seal. Could it be an all inclusive picture of the ‘Great Tribulation’ – the final three and one half years shown in greater detail by the trumpet and bowl judgements?

  86. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I don’t believe it was due unbelief, that’s not what Deuteronomy 29 tells us was the cause.

    Deuteronomy 29:2-3 tells us this particular generation of Jews, the Exodus generation of Israel from Egypt:

    “You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land — the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders.”

    And then suddenly verse 4 reveals… “Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.”

    This is not due to unbelief or anything else, there is no judgment being made here, just that Moses matter-of-factly informs Israel God, in His Sovereignty had not given these spiritual things to the whole of Israel.

    In verse 5 God, through Moese, continues the narative:

    “And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or similar drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God. And when you came to this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out against us to battle, and we conquered them. We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh.”

    God tells Israel, that He has done all of these miraculous things not because Israel deserved them, but because they were entirely within the sovereign will of the Lord God, that even though Israel has not been given spiritually perceptive hearts, eyes and ears He did them that Israel may know by being eyewitness to these miraculous things that He is the Lord their God. God then issues a warning to all Israel regarding the Covenant of Moab that He is establishing.

    “Therefore keep the words of this covenant, and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.”

    And what happens if Israel does not keep the words of this Covenant? Verse 25 tells us in very clear, virtually prophetic terms:

    “Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt; for they went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods that they did not know and that He had not given to them. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against this land, to bring on it every curse that is written in this book. And the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger, in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.”

    Because of unbelief?

    No, it is because they had forsaken the Covenant of the Lord God of their fathers. This specifically is the Covenant of Horeb that Moses handed down to Israel from God, because before this Covenant of Moab there was no other covenant made between the Lord God and all Israel because the inspired text says so in Verse 1 of this chapter.

    Then verse 29 puts the capstone on the prophetic Covenant of Moab.

    “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

    This then leads us to Jeremiah 31:31 and the new covenant which has not come yet, but will when, says the Lord in Jeremiah 31:33-34

    “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    This is the same as when Ezekiel 39:29 says the Lord shall have poured out His Spirit upon Israel.

    Not all Jews have been subject to this, because God in His sovereignty reserved some unto Himself, for His Divine purposes. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11:5

    “Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

    Paul makes clear that these Jews are “the elect” in verses 7 and 8, and which takes back to the Covenant of Moab.

    “What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:

    “God has given them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,
    To this very day.”

    And we know why this was done, it was because of Israel’s forsaking of the Covenant of Horeb.

  87. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Brian, I believe the rider on the white horse is the future Antichrist but the sixth seal cannot be revealing what is under the seventh seal since it is not opened yet.

  88. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Yes, the 5th Seal tells us about those who will be martyred during Daniel’s 70th Week, and that God will respond to their call for justice – but in His sovereign time. That time will begin with the opening by Christ of the 6th Seal which reveals nothing but brings a massive earthquake, tremendous devastation and significant astronomical signs.

    The progression of time is now 42 months into Daniel’s 70th Week. The Abomination of Desolation occurs at this juncture.

    Then the 7th Seal is opened by Christ and reveals the 7 Trumpet Judgments which are followed immediately by the even worse 7 Bowl Judgments. This is the Great Tribulation, the final 42 months of Daniel’s 70th Week and the Wrath of God is in full swing.

  89. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean,

    Paul in Romans and the writer of the book of Hebrews said it was because of there own unbelief.

    Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
    1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
    4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
    5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
    6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief

    Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Ro 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    We can argue if God made them reject God or they freely chose to reject God. That view depends on what points of Calvinism you bye into. Theologian have never come to agreement on how God could be sovereign and yet how we can have free election. As Chuck Missler says, “both views are correct in what they affirm and both are wrong in what they deny”. We cannot fully understand how both can be true with our limited minds but nevertheless the Bible says that each of us is responsible for our own actions and each will account to God for them. Yet, God is Sovereign and hardens whoever He wishes (by foreknowledge or because he just wants to?). You are selectively choosing only the scriptures that support the sovereignty view but other scriptures make it clear that they themselves chose not to believe God.

    What you are saying about the consequences of rejecting the Covenants is correct because the scriptures obviously said what you so aptly pointed out but what I am saying is that people only reject Covenants if they do not believe them.

    There is no doubt that a remnant will be saved by God’s grace but without re-reading everything we said I think the question is the timing of this remnant receiving Grace to believe like the Gentiles that entered the New Covenant before them. I see it happening only after the time of Jacob’s trouble because seeing Jesus coming in the name of the Lord, like doubting Thomas, they finally will get it and believe.


    Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

  90. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    We all know that the Covenant of Horeb was for the whole of the children of Israel – individually and as a nation. Israel, individual Jews as well as a nation witnessed the miracles of God which preceeded and accompanied the Exodus. They, individually and as a nation, had forsaken (Strongs’ H5800 ‘azab – to leave or to depart from; to abandon) that Covenant. Not all, but most or many. The Jews were then placed in the Covenant of Horeb which had the condition detailed above that they not forsake it either. Oops, they did just that, for the most part. And the rest is the literal history of the Jews to the present.

    I would say that forsaking a covenant God has made with individuals, and the outsiders who were with them, as well as the nation as a whole could well be described as disbelief. If one abandons one’s God and the covenant He made with you, that would inevtiably lead to disbelief.
    By this I mean to say that the forsaking of both the Covenant of Horeb (and of Moab) was the cause, and the disbelief is the effect.

    So, I’m really not being selective of Scripture, I’m actually pointing to the bedrock basis of Israel’s fallen spiritual state. Certainly God knew all of this at Creation, which means He knew it before Abram was called into the Abrahamic Covenant. This was His sovereign choice per His sovereign will for His sovereign purposes. Individuals have free will, and the sum total of the exercise of a multitude of individual’s free will results in the consequences of judgment upon a nation.

    Not unlike what’s happening to us here in the U.S. presently, but God has made no everlasting covenant with us as He did with Israel.

  91. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I see we gone down quite a rabbet trail. Anyone want to get back to the post topic?

    After reading the posts and the comments and not repeating what was already said, does anyone have anything to add to the theory that the Psalm 83 war will occur before the Gog war and both will occur before the tribulation?

  92. BrianNo Gravatar says:

    Don

    I can read nothing, nor have I heard of any suggestion of the church in Ezekiel 38-39, yet in Psalm 83:3 there is the possibility of the Church being mentioned. Chuck Missler makes the suggestion that in the phrase ‘hidden ones’, there may be reference to the ‘rapture’.

    I would go one further and ask: Is the Church on earth in this reference? After all the Church was hidden – a mystery prior to the revelation of it to Paul and those nations listed in Psalm 83 certainly hate Christians today, in fact it is clear they have consulted against Christians, for we are their number two target.

    If there is anything in this it would certainly make this war probable before the resurrection of the Church.

    Whether this helps in coming to a clear answer to the current topic I do not know.

  93. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Chuck Missler shoots at the hip a bit and suggests things that nobody else can find when they actually check out what he said against the scriptures. Don’t get me wrong Missler is very good teacher but occasionally he makes conjectures that cannot be supported.

    This passage is not about the Rapture of the Church the whole passage is clearly about the nation of Israel. There is no indication that these Arab nations are conspiring to cut off the Church from being a nation and why would these nations even try such a foolish thing?

    One would have to be a Muslim Antichrist proponent to be deluded enough to think that these weak nations would try to war against the “Christian” West.

    Will the rapture have occurred at the time of Psalm 83? That depends on when the war actually takes place and when the rapture actually occurs. I think the rapture is always imminent and gets even more imminent the closer we get to the end.

  94. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    The Hebrew word tsaphan is transliterated to English as “Thy hidden ones” just one time. Psalm 83:3 is that one time in the KJV, NKJV, YLT and a few others. Other versions of the Bible transliterate this word as “Thy treasured ones,” “Your sheltered ones.” “Your precious ones,” “your treasured ones,” “thy protected ones,” “your cherished ones,” and even “those people that you love.”

    Since Psalm 83 is only about God’s people Israel, in the context of the Jews being “the apples of his eye,” then to turn about and say that “tsaphan” refers to the Bride of Christ would be tantamount to engaging in a sort of replacement theology in reverse. Replacement theology is utterly rejected as false by most reputable Bible scholars in the normal sense. It is probably similarly rejected in the reverse sense. I know I reject any such assertion. I maintain it is a reference to the Jews, or a cryptic reference to the future 144,000. Asaph was a seer, a prophet, circa 1000 B.C.

  95. BrianNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don

    Yes, I was looking at the passage in the KJV, the ASV, the LITV and the MKJV at face value and although the primary meaning of the word tsaphan is hide, hid, hidden – and is predominantly translated as such throughout the KJV, its secondary meaning such as hoard or reserve (Strong’s) does apply directly to the Jewish people and God’s providential care for them.

    Your comments made me look more carefully at the context. The parallelism of Hebrew poetry should also have alerted me to this application.

    My thought was that if ‘hidden’ did refer in any way to the mystery of the Church it would suggest this war could occur during the Church age, and these nations being at enmity with Christians was an observation of the present day facts – nothing more.

    Thanks

  96. Zion U.K says:

    The word of God will always be superior to the traditions of men!

    Fellas, we need to lay our ‘scholarly pride’ in the dust and approach the scripture with humble and contrite hearts!

    Anyone who reads Ezekiel chapter 39 with an open mind, allowing the text to speak for itself, will come to the realization that Ezekiel is describing the events taking place during the aftermath of the final war – the so called “campaign of armageddon”. Once again we must always allow the biblical text to speak for itself.

    Ezekiel 39 describes:

    1) Gods mighty intervention in granting Israel victory against the invading forces.

    2) Israels national repentance and redemption.

    3) The cleansing of the land in preparation for the millenial temple/kingdom

    4) The burning/converting of the weapons = the end of ALL wars!

    4) The APPEARANCE of the millenial temple

    5) The reinstitution of temple service for the millenium

    I do feel it is unwise to try to shoehorn the biblical text in order to fit our theories.

  97. Zion U.K says:

    Hello again!

    I almost forgot: Ezekiel also describes the ravenous birds feeding upon the carcases of the slain soldiers; this same scene is descripted in the book of Revelation, also at the END of the great tribulation – when Christ returns to the earth.

    So, to summarise: Ezekiels war is concluded when Christ returns to earth, and not 10.5 years before.

  98. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I do not know what shoehorn you used to shoehorn Ezekiel 38 and 39 into the campaign at Armageddon. It does not fit!

    Here is a brief summery telling why they are different campaigns from Doug Houston Minstries.

    The world will experience two great battles which have not yet come to pass. These two wars are the Battle of Gog and magog and the Battle of Armageddon (Ezek. 38; Rev. 19:17-21).
    The Battle of Armagedon is not to be confused with the Battle of Gog, and there are crucial differences between the two conflicts. The cast of characters is similar but different in many respects. Ezekiel lists Magog’s allies as Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, and Beth-Togarmah. This constitutes the bulk of the invasion. However, in Zechariah chapter 12 thru 14 “Armageddon is described as a war in which “all nations of the world will come against Jerusalem. Nations come to fight against Gog but all nations will come against Israel at the Battle of Armageddon. We need to think about this and understand it.
    In addition, the character of the intervention in the two invasions is different. In the Battle of Magog, the Lord intervenes by an earthquake and fire from heaven, whether by himself or nuclear warfare we are not told. However, I would not want to be fighting against God in this horror of fire (Ezek. 38:20-22). Whether this is symbolic or literal is not known. It does appear that the Lord himself intervenes to turn the tide of the war. In contrast, in the Battle of Armageddon God returns with his church and stops the battle through his own literal return to this earth and with power ushers in the millennial age of 1000 years of peace (Rev. 19:11-21).
    And Finally, the outcome of the two battles will be different. In the aftermath of the war of Gog and Magog the scripture tells us that they will be seven months burying the dead as a result of the confrontation. In addition, They will be seven years in burning all the weapons of war that were left after the invasion has taken place. However, when the Lord returns after the Battle of Armageddon he literally comes to this earth and rules over these nations as their King. He does not have to but a hook in the jaws of Russia and turn her back to anywhere. He becomes the smiting stone of Daniel that smites the nations and takes their power from them at his return and places it on his shoulders. This is in contradistinction to the Russian invasion in which the sovereignty and power of the nations is held intact. Thus, they can return at the end of the last three and one half years to be a part of the final battle.”

    Any time there are dead bodiess lying around there will be ravenous birds feeding upon the carcasses of the slain soldiers so that proves nothing. The fact of the matter is that Gog’s army is buried in a specific place and Gog is only joined with about nine nations and they come against Israel to take a spoil. In Armageddon the three spirits that came out of the Dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet went out to deceive all nations to come against the coming King of Kings of Israel.

    This is not said about the army of the Gog war in fact one sixth of them survive.

    Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

  99. Zion U.K says:

    Again, you seem to be attempting to shoehorn the biblical text in order to fit your preconceived theories.

    Here is a brief summary telling why Ezekiel 39 is indeed describing the battle of armageddon and its aftermath:

    First of all, for your interpretation to be correct, then Jesus’, the apostle Paul, Zechariah, Daniel, John the revelator, Ezekiel, the Psalmists, etc are ALL describing different endtime wars/campaigns because their accounts of armageddon are very different from each other. It is basic common sense that all of the aforementioned vissionaries are presenting different parts of the same mosaic. Indeed the four gospels offer different versions of Jesus’ death and ressurection – again, different parts of the same mosaic.

    Ezekiel 39’s primary vision is of Israels national redemption – when the Lord pours out his holy spirit into them (“ALL Israel shall be saved”), can only occur “AFTER the tribulation of those days”. The LAND of Israel is cleansed/redeemed seven years later – into the millenium, when the bones are buried, and the weapons of war are burned/melted/converted – this clearly tells us that humanity has seen the end of warfare as we know it (“they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into prooninghooks. . .”) (have you not noticed that Ezekiel does not visualise anymore “Armageddons” other than this?). Once the land is cleansed of the dead corpses then the MILLENIAL temple will appear, and the thousand years of temple service can begin.

    You have correctly stated that any time there are dead corpses lying around, the ravenous birds will always be feeding upon the carcasses: but Ezekiel, John the revelator, and Jesus clearly tell us that AFTER the tribulation God himself sends out the commandment to “the fowls of the air” and the “beasts of the field” to attend his sacrifice in order to gorge themselves on the flesh and blood of the slain. This is a supernatural/post tribulation event!

    So, to summarise:

    The psalms 83 war is a prelude to Ezekiels armageddon war.

    Islam and secular liberal Jewry may may be the main casualties of psalm 83, as the third temples construction is fundamentally opposed by these two forces.

    I believe that the religious Jewish settlers will not hesitate to begin to build the third temple on the temple mount, when God gives Israel victory after the Psalm 83 war.

    Israel will only feel safe and secure once they have access to rebuild the third temple when their surrounding oppressors (Moslems and liberal Jews) are out of the picture.

    Israel will then prosper, and Jewish people from all over the world will return to the land in total confidence.

    The Mosaic covenant will be “confirmed” according to Daniel, then Gods prophetic timetable will begin.

    Only after the above events does Ezekiel begin to describe his vision in chapter 39 onwards.

    Please note: the expulsion from Jews from Gaza was not conducted by moslems, but by SECULAR Israelis. Also that secular Israeli politicians are ready and willing to give up their Biblical inheritance in east Jerusalem and Judea/west bank – God is not too pleased about this attitude.

  100. DonNo Gravatar says:

    The puzzling thing to me about those who think they know how Bible prophecy will unfold is why they just present their own arguments but never answer the arguments presented to them that oppose their view?

    I also observe that religious Jews want to believe the Ezekiel war is close and identify it as the last war because they do not acknowledge that there is a time called Jacob’s trouble where 2/3rds of all the Jews living in the land will be killed and only one third refined through the fire. In other word, these just want to think that God will fight for them and accept them without they ever accepting the Son He sent to save them.

    Since you really did not address the arguments that I presented I really do not see why I should waste my time to answer yours but I will one more time.

    First, you need to understand that there are least three different campaigns in the end time period. Jesus and the prophets you mentioned speak about many things within the final week of years. The difficult thing in Bible prophecy is determining which scriptures apply to which campaign.

    What the prophets spoke about was not all part of Armageddon campaign as you suggest. It is not basic common sense that they are all talking about the same campaign when they are often talking about different campaigns and just saying they are does not make it so. What seems like common sense to you is not a valid argument. Because reading the prophetic text tells me that anyone with some common sense will see that Ezekiel 38-39 and Armageddon are different wars.

    Real common sense says that you need to prove that Ezekiel 38 39 and Armageddon are the same campaign when the events described are so different. So unless you can answer the arguments that I have provided why they are not the same campaign your common sense argument is meaningless. By the way, there are other arguments that I have not presented but I thought I would start with the obvious.

    Also saying that all the prophets predictions are part of the same Armageddon mosaic because the four gospels are a mosaic is a rather strange argument to make and it just does not fly. You cannot make one mosaic out all these prophetic passages just because you want to. The four accounts of Jesus life on earth does not in any way make all the prophetic views of the end time different visions of the same campaign.

    Your paragraph on what you think Ezekiel 39 brings in, is just your opinion based on a wrong analysis of Bible prophecy. I see a lot of conjecture in your statement. You seem to think you can just pull scriptures out of context and have the Gog war be the fulfillment of all post Armageddon passages. But that my friend is shoehorning, it is not scholarship. There is no reason to believe that the Gog war immediately brings about the conditions that you suggest in your paragraph because the things you mentioned happen after the war of Armageddon but the Ezekiel 38-39 war takes place before Armageddon.

    Then in the next paragraph you talk about the the birds at the Armageddon war and imply that because there are birds there it is the Ezekiel war? That again is only true if they are the same birds at the same time. However I suggest that they are different campaigns so the fact that there are birds at Armageddon has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

    Then you start your summery and say the psalm 83 war is a prelude to Ezekiel’s Armageddon war. I agree that Psalm 83 probably precedes the Ezekiel war but Ezekiel is not describing the Armageddon war. If he were there would be great discrepancies between what he said and what the prophets say elsewhere about the Armageddon war.

    Next, in your summery you say Islam and liberal Jewry will be the casualties of psalm 83. Actually, according to Psalm 83 it will be a Arab confederacy not a Islamic confederacy and it is not likely to be fought over the temple. Further, this war really has nothing to do with your argument that the Gog war is Armageddon so wheres the point? The rest of your summery I do not disagree with except I do not know why you always jump to Ezekiel 39 before Ezekiel 38 that describes the same war. I also do not see where your summery presents any arguments at all why the Ezekiel Gog war is Armageddon. In fact, I do not see any new argument in your last comment that adds support to your view at all. I have to wonder why you even wrote it?

    So you might answer my arguments on how these two wars can be the same when there are so many differences between them (read my previous comment)

  101. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Blessings Don,

    Just want to chime in briefly to say that the Gog/Magog War IS NOT the Battle of Har Megiddo.

    These two military engagements have absolutely zero relation to one another excepting only that they are fought in and around the Holy Land.

    Ezekiel’s “Gog” can in no way whatsoever be mistaken for the “Antichrist” in the first 42 months and “the Beast/Abaddon-Apollyon” in the second 42 months of Daniel’s 70th Week. The very simple fact of the matter is that the name Gog in Hebrew is ????? (Gimel – Vav – Gimel). The number of Gog’s name is 12 (3+6+3= 12) Nowhere near Six hundred three score and six the Lord God tells us in Revelation is the number of the Antichrists name. No fancy work here, it’s all right there in the plain language of the Bible staring us all right in the face.

    Thus is the first rule of interpreting Bible prophecy upheld. Take the clear meaning of Scripture first and foremost as it is inerrant.

    To make such easily avoidable errors is due to what can only be blatant disregard for all proper Spirit-led, Biblical hermeneutics, and which leads one directly into the quicksand of personal eisegesis vice sound Biblical exegesis. It really is as simple as that. And that so many Bible prophecy buffs make these errors is a significant statement unto itself.

  102. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Blessings Sean,

    Glad to have your expert opinion on the matter. Have you seen a good article comparing many of the differences between the two battles? I am sure I saw it somewhere or perhaps I read it in a book. But, when I did a Internet search yesterday I could only find a few items here and a few items there. I would like to find a link where the arguments are all in one place.

    I guess if there is nothing out there I might have to research it and write it myself but I sure hate to duplicate what probably is already available.

  103. Zion U.K says:

    OK, let me simplify this debate with some basic issues for you and the readers to consider.

    Most of us will agree that the latter chapters of Ezekiels book are the most chronological in the entire old testament. With the knowledge of this chronological nature of Ezekiels book, are you now asking the readers to believe that Ezekiel goes into great detail in describing the rebirth of the jewish nation, the amazingly detailed description of the millenial temple, the return of Gods shekina glory to the temple, the priestly worship in the millenial temple, the living waters issuing from the throne of God; but he curiously fails to mention the horrific campaign of armageddon that is responsible for the slaughter of two thirds of his people?

    Ezekiel DOES indeed describe the final battle of Armageddon and its aftermath (chapter 38/39) from his own unique prophetic vantage point. There are NO more wars after this. . . Israel is redeemed!

    Israel will only be redeemed as a nation when God pours out his holy spirit in them; thus they will be reconciled to christ – ONLY when Christ returns to earth! “so will I make my holy name (Yeshua) known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will NOT let them pollute my holy name anymore”. . . “Behold, IT IS DONE, saith the Lord God; THIS IS THE DAY WHEREOF I HAVE SPOKEN”. That is judgment day, my friends!

    Ezekiel 39:21
    “And I will set my GLORY among the heathen, and ALL the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them (the Gentiles).

    Ezekiel 39:22
    “So the house of Israel shall know that I (Yeshua) am the Lord their God from that day AND FORWARD”

    Once Isrel is redeemed, they are redeemed forever!

    My point about Israels secular jewry is that after the psalm 83 war the nation of Israels power shift seems to revert back to being predominantly religious in nature as opposed to what it is today: secular and Godless. The temple mount will once again be the focus of Jewish conciosness after the psalm 83 war.

  104. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I think I see the problem although others here might not agree with my view of Ezekiel 39.

    I totally agree that the later chapters of Ezekiel are chronological but I think I see where your missing it and why you think the Ezekiel Gog war and Armageddon are the same campaign.

    As you know the chapters and verses of the Bible were added just several hundred years ago. They are not God breathed and a few chapters breaks are just not in the best place for clarity. I think they should have placed a chapter break from verse 17 to the end of what is now all Ezekiel 39. I say that, because before verse 17 it is talking about the Gog war but from verse 17 until the end of that chapter it is talking about the Armageddon war and the immediate aftermath were God restores Israel. Then in chapter 40-48 it is talking about the millennial kingdom.

    So it all is sequential but the Gog war is not the Armageddon war. Just as there was a real time break between chapter 37 and the start of the Gog war there will be a real time break between the Gog war and Armageddon. When there is nothing prophetic happening in the world the Bible silent. Those that put the chapters in the bible just missed the time break and they make Ezekiel 39 all one chapter when for clarity sake it should have been two.

    So I understand that you see Armageddon in the end of Ezekiel 39. So do I. But nevertheless we see that there are profound differences between the war led by Gog who is joined by only nine nations to take a spoil from Israel and the Armageddon gathering of all nations against the coming of God’s messiah.

    I agree with your view of the aftermath of the psalm 83 war.

  105. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    Not sure where you can find an all-in-one Ez.38/39 and Har Megiddo comparison. Sounds like an article which needs to be written.

    I’ve posted a couple items on this, but nothing all inclusive; mainly focused on why Gog and the AC are two completely different men.

    Blesings

  106. Zion U.K says:

    Yes Don, I do understand and appreciate your point about there should have been a break between verse 17 and the end of chapter 39; but I still feel that you have failed to address my earlier point about why Ezekiel goes into incredible detail in describing clearly ALL the events from the establishment of the state of Israel, even up to when God declares the final borders of the land of Israel according to tribal inheritance in chapter 48 – but COMPLETELY misses out the final battle of Armageddon in which two thirds of his Jewish brethen are slaughtered.

    Also, when one reads chapter 39, Christ is ALREADY fighting on earth well before verse 17, so that means Israel must be redeemed before verse 17 of chapter 39.

    According to the Biblical text, Ezekiels war of Gog and Magog is part of the wider battle/campaign of “Armageddon” that begins sometime during the second half of the tribulation. We will also do well to remember that the prophets who prophesied of the endtime war were given different and unique perspectives of different facets of the Armageddon campaign (Ezekiel was given a northern perspective) I really see no other credible alternative.

  107. DonNo Gravatar says:

    You did not attempt to address my points at all why the campaigns are different, yet I did address all the points you made that I regarded as a point.

    You asked why does God go into great detail in Ezekiel about the earlier events in Ezekiel and not about the events just prior to Armageddon?

    Perhaps it is because God spoke in great detail about those other events elsewhere and He does not want everything to be known to the Jews beforehand because they always reject the scriptures that do talk about the coming of His Son. For example, if you ask any astute religious Jews today what will be the last war before Israel is restored they will say the Gog MaGog war. Even though some like spokesmen for Temple faithful or Temple Institute have been on the Christian prophecy circuits and they have heard the truth and they have heard that there will be a later war where 2/3rd’s of the Jews in the Land will be cut off and that they will have to flee to the mountains to be saved, but they refuse to hear it. They will not acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah and that he must come back to save them. They think all will be restored after the Gog war and then they will enter the Messiah age without a real Messiah! Or else if they still expect a real messiah they are setting themselves up for the Beast/Antichrist.

    And that’s the point God wants Israel to know that there will be a Gog war because that is where he once again reveals Himself to Israel like in ancient times but they will not understand about their Messiah until the 70th week runs its course along with the time called Jacob’s trouble.

    When prophecy in the Bible is not clear it is almost always so that the blind will not see. Some things are sealed to the Jews and unbelievers until the time of fulfillment.

    I do not see where Christ is fighting for Israel before verse 17 in Ezekiel 39 like you said?? I see Father God intervening against Gog and his army but there is no mention that Christ is already fighting before He is even coronated. When the Jews see Him coming in power and glory with all His saints and angels they will acknowledge Him. In fact, Ho 5:15 specifically says that Jesus will return to His place until they acknowledge their offense and seek His face. This war is for the purpose that God said in Ezk 39:7, “I will make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. It is so Israel returns to YHWH and so all the Gentile nations of the world know that YHWH is the Lord of the earth. Jesus, as the image of God and as the risen glorified son of man has not even been revealed to Israel or the unbelieving world at the time of the Gog Magog war.

    How do you expect the Temple to be rebuilt and the two prophets to give their witness for 1260 days after the battle of Armageddon or before the start of the Gog war? How in the world could Gog come down against the two prophets and why would they even dare come down to oppose such displayed power just to take a spoil? It makes no common sense. Nobody will succeed in opposing them until the Antichrist and Gog is not the Antichrist. If he were would God not have known enough to name Him with a name that adds up to 666 instead of 12? No. the two prophets teach shortly after the Gog war when the Temple is being rebuilt and then after their ministry the 42 months allotted for the Beast arrives and is fulfilled. Only after that does Jesus return to save Israel from the Beast.

    Your last paragraph is just a rehash of one of your old erroneous statements. There is no such sequence found in Bible prophecy and there is no indication that the Gog war is a different perspective of the Armageddon campaign. If that were true there would be conflicting passages and God is not the author of error and confusion. Now, if you need to know what a few of the conflicting passage are read the above recent comments and address those. Otherwise give it up because I get the impression that you refuse to consider or address any other position but your own.

  108. Hi Don

    Zion U.K. should be reminded of the following fact:

    Israel will be “at rest, dwelling safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates” when Gog is enticed to ‘take a spoil’ (Ezekiel 38:8-11). Israel is not at peace at the time of the Armageddon campaign.

  109. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Brian from OZ and Don,

    Indeed, as mentioned above there exists a swarm of distinguishing prophetic “facts” that uniquely differentiate the Gog/Magog War from the Har Megiddo War.

    Some of these prophetic “facts” are so unique to either military engagement that it defies the norms of basic human intellect to deliberately intrude one uniqueness upon the other; to ignore the mutual exclusivity inherent in each of these Scriptures. God cannot be pleased with such an exercise by any human being because the brain He created should recoil at the futility of placing a square peg in a round hole.

    It is apparent in reading the nacissistic comments from Zion U.K. that his personal agenda, or I should say, his eisegisis, regarding these Scriptures holds inerrant supremacy over anything anyone else might provide in rebuttal. He is totally disinterested in any Berean investigation of the Lord’s Word.

    Brian’s sage advice above should be coupled with the admonition of the Lord regarding adding to or taking away from the text of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 22, verses 18 and 19:

    “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

    And with this I unsubscribe from this topic of discussion.

    Blessings,
    Sean

  110. Zion U.K says:

    Brian,

    Israel IS NOT at peace at the time of the Armageddon campaign because they are being invaded/attacked by the Gog/Magog armies!

    Brian, I clearly have addressed the issue regarding Israels apparent “rest” “peace & safety” BEFORE the Armageddon campaign in my earlier posts, but let me summarise again if you are still unclear about this issue.

    Israel will only believe that they are at peace/rest, and dwelling safely and have aquired great wealth when they have defeated the psalm 83 confederation. They will have great wealth once their borders are expanded, as their immediate surrounding enemies are vanquished. Israel will then have complete sovreignty over Jerusalem, and will IMMEDIATELY begin the preparation of rebuilding their ancient temple – the balance of power in Israel will be in favour of the religious/Sanhedrin/settlers. As jews around the world see that the temple is under construction the majority of them will move to Israel to be there for the opening of the temple.

    ONLY when the third temple is built will Israel truly believe they are living in peace and safety!

    As a side issue: when God gave the SECULAR jews the temple mount after the six day war in 1967 they had no intention or desire to retain the area in accordance with their spiritual inheritance, or begin to prepare the area for the temple to be rebuilt – they are SECULAR. Instead they handed it over to the islamic religious authorities of the day. I believe that the religious settlers WILL NOT DELAY in rebuilding the temple after the psalm 83 war.

  111. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Zion,

    Your first sentence to Brian really is a great example of circular reasoning. First you make the Gog/Magog war Armageddon (which it is not) and then say Israel is not at peace because the Gog war is Armageddon.

    The fact is that Israel is not at peace at the Armageddon campaign because the remnant have already fled to the mountains from the Antichrist. You have yet to answer the arguments that were presented to you why the Gog/Magog war and Armageddon cannot be the same war. You just make statements as if just your conjecture makes for a debate.

    On another note.

    You may find my latest post interesting. It may explain what the exodus back to Israel is all about from the edomite’s point of view. These secular “Jews” pose as Jews but some are of the synagogue of Satan. Nevertheless, God has full control over His people and it will turn out as He said.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/2010/11/12/in-the-jewish-exodus-back-to-israel-the-edomites-take-our-gold-with-them.html

  112. Zion U.K says:

    Don,

    In no way are the points I have made an “example of circular reasoning”.

    The simple point that I am making is that Israel will mistakenly believe that they have entered the messianic age after the psalm 83 war and the immediate rebuilding of the temple when jews from all over the world resettle their homeland. There are also examples in the old testament when God gives the nation of Israel a period of rest after he has delivered them from enemy oppression, only for them to sin again. Obviously this “rest” period after the psalm 83 war comes to a dramatic end according to Ezekiels Gog Magog/Armageddon campaign.

    Please note also: that the Gog Magog/Armageddon campaign lasts for a duration of three and one half years – or fourty two months, and brings to an end the false peace after the psalm 83 victory and the confirmation of the covenant, spoken by Daniel the prophet.

    Please read again Ezekiel 38 39 40 with an open mind

  113. Zion U.K says:

    Yes Don, I DO believe that the confirmation of the MOSAIC covenant is agreed shortly after Israels psalm 83 victory – and the completion of the third temple!

    When do you guys think that the confirmation of the covenant occurs?

  114. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Zion,

    I obviously pointed out that your opening sentence to Brian was a prime example of circular reasoning. So obviously what you said was an example of circular reasoning to me. I did not ever imply that all your points were. Although I am not sure you ever made and new points recently.

    I know for a fact that you have never answered my main points in my previous comments and for that reason you are not going to waste any more space on this post. You are simply rehashing what you already said and you are not making any case that the Gog/Magog war and the Armageddon campaign are the same.

    I think most of us here believe as you do, that the Psalm 83 war will establish the peace conditions that allows for the Gog/Magog war. That never was the issue. The issue is that you are emphatic that the Gog war and the later Armageddon war are the same. But if they were the same war there would be many conflicts in the scriptures. Like I said, God does not contradict himself and confuse us. The wording in the wars are so different that you would have to have a closed mind to miss it.

    As for your comment that I should read Ezekiel 38, 39 and 40 with an open mind. I think I proved to you that I have read Ezekiel with an open mind when I said there should have been a chapter break at 39:17 because I think the rest of the text is talking about Armageddon and the aftermath. But, in any case, there is no way that the passages about the Gog/Magog war refer to the same battle staged at Megiddo (Arrmageddon) from which all the armies of the world move into the valley of Jehoshaphat where they are destroyed by Jesus Christ Himself at His return.

    I think after studying all the prophetic scriptures referring to these battles hundreds of times I have a pretty good grasp on the subject so there is no reason to open my mind to now try to find words written between the lines. Perhaps it is you that should start looking at the arguments of others against what you said here rather than continuing to rehash your unfounded conjecture.

    Well that is going to have to be the end of my discussion with you on this topic. I have wasted way too much time trying to get you to see the obvious. I also have wasted time presenting arguments to you that you will not even bother addressing. It seems to me that you are taking the same position of those Jews that miss all the scriptures about a literal Jesus standing against all the armies of the world. In any case, chow!

  115. Hi again Don
    Thanks to you and Sean for your support. I am nearly seventy and find there are times when my soul recoils from blinkered thinking.
    Humility is a must in understanding the scriptures and a closed mind is the evidence of its absence.
    I don’t think anyone likes to be proved wrong but God’s word has a habit of doing just that – it is sharp two-edged sword. If Zion UK continues to read these replies I trust he will put aside his beliefs and follow your advice in making an honest attempt to answer your rebuttal. From what you have said though the outcome may not see the light of day; not on this blog anyway.

  116. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Ok, I’m back to make another comment in order to shred an inaccuracy from Zion UK.

    Another of the grave errors plaguing Zion UK’s less than accurate eschatology is his penchant for attempting to dictate to us what the Jews have to believe at a given time in the future.

    Case in point, “Israel will mistakenly believe that they have entered the messianic age after the psalm 83 war…”

    Jewish eschatology does not allow for this. Period. I will now explain why this is so as confirmed by the Word of God.

    What the Jews eschatologically expect to happen, and whom they will accept as Mashiach, and when this will occur has ALWAYS been a by-product of their own errant traditions and beliefs since the establishment of the Moabite Coventant through Moses in Deuteronomy 29.

    The Jews, particularly those of Orthodox Judaism, those who are the rabbinical council making up the re-established Sanhedrin, are expecting TWO Mashiachs. Both of these Mashiachs are mere mortal men according to Jewish beliefs, neither is or represents YHWH-incarnate.

    The first is the man Mashiach ben Yusef (Joseph – it is crucial to understand who and what the descedants of Joseph are to the sum of Judaism) who will emerge (most probably) during the Psalm 83 war and lead Israel to victory over the combined Arab-Islamic armies named by Aspah. Mashiach ben Yusef will ultimately die defending Israel during the several years subsequent battle of Gog/Magog.

    The second is the man Mashiach ben David who arrives on the scene at some point in time AFTER the battle of Gog/Magog. He is present for the cleansing of the land and will begin the construction of the 3rd Temple, the Tribulation Temple. This is the false Machiach of who Jesus spoke to the Sanhedrin in His day, saying (as quoted in John 5:43) “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.” This is the man who Daniel told us will “confirm a covenant among many.”

    This is the man who we know in the first 42 months of Daniel’s 70th Week as the “the man of sin, the son of perdition” per the descriptive words of Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 regarding the coming of Christ for us believers.

    These words dually describe a completely human man of sin, a man whose name the Book of Revelation tells us equals six hubdred three score and six, AS WELL AS a second edition of the same man, the “son of perdition” which fully illustrates the indwelling of thIS man by the demon Abaddon/Apollyon during the second 42 months of Daniel’s 70th Week. In sum we know this duality man/demon as the Antichrist.

    The “son of perdition” actually means “son of the destroyer” which is another name for Satan, and this is confirmed by 2 Thessalonians 2:9 where Paul tells us his coming “is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” The demon Abaddon/Apollyon is the son of Satan, and he is the one clearly spoken of in Revelation 9:1-11. In summation, we know this Satanic empowered demon in the body of a mortal man as the immitation of the truly Divine Godhead.

    I’ve cited a good amount the the Word of God in making this refutation of Zion UK’s eisegesis. Be wary of people like him who offer their interpretations without providing the same from the Word of God.

  117. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean,

    Thanks for the great insights from one who obviously put a lot of study in to these things.

  118. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Indeed I have brother Don, and I praise God for them. Blessings to you and yours in the coming season, and all who read here. Sha’alu shalom Yerushalayim.

    Sean

  119. Zion U.K says:

    Just as it was in Jesus’ day; there are lots of ‘scribes’ & ‘pharisees’ around today. . .

  120. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I thought I would post this one last post from Mr. Zion so all can see how cute some people get when their infallible beliefs are challenged.

    From my experience most of the time that someone comes to this Blog to tell my theology is wrong ends up making such statements after there views are refuted. Much like the post modern liberals they attack the messenger rather than debate the arguments. Me thinks it all comes form the same source.

  121. Anonymous says:

    Don in your review and comments on Israelstine to mention;

    In Psalm 83 Israel is attacked by a Arab confederacy that thinks it can cut off Israel from being a nation. Israel obviously goes to war against them in self defense but Israel will not stay alone. The U.S. and NATO probably joins forces with Israel to defeat and disarm the entire Arab Confederacy and also to go on to defeat all strongholds of Islamic world terrorism.

    The biggest problem I see with this is that Turkey is a member of NATO. They would certainly be privy to any plans that NATO have in this war. But other than this I have enjoyed this whole blog thread.

    I am a pastor of a small Bible church in NJ and am in the midst of teaching a series on End Times Prophecy. I am getting ready to teach on the nations of Psalm 83 & Ezekiel 38-39. I will have to take more time in study of the timing of these two wars. Thanks for everyone’s input to this blog. It is fascinating!

    Pastor Dave
    davea1024@gmail.com

  122. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Dave,

    First let me say, I hope your realize that by posting your email address that you open yourself up to a lot of spam robots. If you want me to edit your email out of your comment let me know. I guess you can always change your email address if you get too much spam.

    I see it pretty much as you do. I think it will all turn into a world war against radical Islam and that the Psalm 83 kicks the world war off, or else the world war kicks off the Psalm 83 war against Israel. Some good scholars think the Psalm 83 war actually started in 1948 and it will continue to escalate until the end. I am open to that suggestion but I really do not see it that way.

    Turkey is still part of NATO but Turkey was pretty secular until recently and they could stay out of this war. Turkey really is not mentioned as coming against Israel until the Ezekiel 38 Gog war and that seems to occur some time after the Psalm 83 war. I think Islam will be weakened by the World war and will become less radical but I do not think world religions will be defeated until God shows Himself to the nations in the destruction of Gog’s army.

    Then I see a pluralistic univeralistic harlot world religion until the time of the Antichrist.

    Glad to hear that you plan a teaching on this subject. The Church need to realize that the stage is being set up for all these things right now.

  123. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    My Email subscription to this article is still alive and kicking, so here I am again. :)

    Pastor Dave,

    In my interpretation, the psalmist Asaph names eleven distinct nations/peoples which are combatants in the Psalm 83 conflict: Israel and the 10 Arab enemy nations in the (b?riyth) confederation/alliance (Psalm 83:5).

    This alliance literally came into existence two years prior to the re-birth of the State of Israel. As I am sure you’re aware, this alliance has long been known informally as The Arab League.

    What you may or may not be aware of is that the Arab nations (Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Transjordan (i.e. Jordan), and Yemen) which founded the Arab B?riyth are the same nations/peoples named by Asaph in Psalm 83.

    The Arabs launched launched their war of annihilation against Israel through the Arab League military committee in November 1947, the military objective of which was to prevent the establishment of the State of Israel. That initial phase of the war lasted until Israel had defeated the Arab’s and the hostilities-ending armistice was agreed to in 1949. Thus did Psalm 83 begin to be a prophecy in the process of fulfillment during this generation, and it continues in fits and spurts to this very moment.

    Aspah’s psalm says nothing about the involvement of any other nations in this war. This is consistent with the historical fact of the 1956 Suez War, which was a conspired UK and French war against Egypt as a result of Egypt nationalization of their jointly owned and operated canal. The Anglo-French military objective was limitied to the re-taking of the Suez Canal from the Egyptians.

    This Suez War nearly got out of control, as did the ’73 war, with potential Soviet and US involvement, but that was not to be due to Eisenhower’s siding with Stalin aganst Israel’s taking of the Sinai from Egyptian forces. Cooler heads prevailed and the Sinai was returned to Egypt. Hoever, the stage was set for the subsequent Pslam 83 wars of annihilation in June ’67, and October ’73. Each military action in this series of Pslam 83 conflicts sets the stage for the subsequent round of hostilies because an overwhelming military victory against the enemy nations as a whole has not been achieved.

    Achieving that overwhelming victory is the soon-to-occur end-game to the Pslam 83 prophecy per verses 15-18. I believe Isaiah 17 (a limited WMD war) and Joshua 13:1-7 are also directly related. The conditions of overwhelming Israeli victory against the Arab League, (the “inner ring” according to Bill Salus), sets the stage for the subsequent Ezekiel 38/39 (and here enters the resurgent Islamist Turkey whose days within the NATO alliance are finitely numbered). This conflict will most certainly will become a weapons of mass destruction world war. Ezekiel 38/39, in turn, sets the stage for the Antichrist’s emergence as a “peacemaker” and his confirming a “covenant among many.”

    I also believe that prior to the final Psalm 83 conflagration there will occur a massive, “shock and awe” joint military suppression of Iran. Jeremiah 49:34-39 may be the prophetic foretelling of that suppressing assault.

    Blessings,
    Sean

  124. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Sean, Your insights and knowledge on this subject are always welcomed here. I think we can agree that the greater fulfillment of Psalm 83 will take place very soon.

    I also agree that we are heading into a world war and that the Ezekiel 38/39 war sets the stage for the rise of the Beast/Antichrist.

    By the way Sean, what is your take on the DEBKAfile report that says that Saudi Arabia pretty much has control to transport a couple of nukes out of Pakistan whenever they want? Why do you think the Saudi’s are leaking this information now and would we or Israel even allow the transport?

  125. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I just read this commentary on the joint Iran North Korea nuclear weapons development program.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/12/30/iran-test-nuclear-bomb-north-korea/

    It is quite an eye opener and makes we wonder why certain people are saying it will take Iran 3 more years to develop nukes? Seems the world has their head in the sand. N. Korea now seems hell bent to spread nuclear weapons in other rogue states. It is time we did something about them.

  126. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    My take on the DEBKAfile report is this:

    If accurate, I assess this DEBKAfile article constitutes a relatively big surprise from Saudi Arabia for three primary reasons.

    1.) It is diametrically opposed to all of its previous foreign policy and international commitments regarding the Saudi Arabia’s public agenda of halting nuclear weapons proliferation in the Middle East. If true, the Saudi’s would have no political alibi in this regard.

    2.) Although this reversal is most probably directly related to the abject failure of NATO, Israel or a broad military coalition to halt the Iranian nuclear weapons program during the past few years, it flies in the face of the fact that the four previous decades of highly advanced Israeli nuclear weapons capability failed to produce this kind of a reaction from the Saudi Arabian government. Thus it might possibly be a new reflection and facet of the historical Sunni-Shi’a schism within Islam, and Riyadh’s deep distrust of Tehran.

    3.) Also with respect to Israel’s nuclear weapons policy, the Saudi’s would be expected to maintain a reciprocal ‘black hole’ regimen of WMD ambiguity. Nothing should have emerged in the media regarding covert Saudi deterrent efforts, particularly reports such as this at Forbes.com or this page at GlobalSecuriity.Org. Neither DEBKA nor these other two reports offer any conclusive proof of Saudi nuclear weapons or means of delivery acquisition. But that doesn’t mean that covert Saudi programs don’t exist either.

    As an afterthought, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists has it’s “doomsday clock” which routinely and arbitrarily advances or retards the advent of that day depending on corporate media reporting of international events.

    I prefer to think of the potential for warfare as a mercury thermometer. Ambient temperatures cause the liquid metal to rise and fall. 2011 has the potential of becoming the year in which several unrelenting external heat sources will be applied to the reservoir at the base. The mercury will have nowhere to go but burst outside of its glass containment.

    On Iran and North Korea.

    There is a WMD axis of evil that been hard at work for many years now: North Korea, Iran and Syria. North Korea and Iran have cooperated very closely in nuclear weapons and delivery systems proliferation. A North Korean nuclear test is a de facto Iranian nuclear test. Iranian observers were on hand for all DPRK nuke tests thus far, apparently seeing to it that their significant financial investment paid dividends. Iran only lacks the indigenous capability to produce a weapon and I believe they’ll get there within a year or less. Syria lost their North Korean built and iranian funded nuclear (plutonium production) capability in September 2007 thanks to an IDF commando laser tagging of the Al Kibar reactor containment facility for the IAF surgical air strike. Iran is next.

  127. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Sorry, that cut’n’paste of my emailed assessment from this morning lost the embedded url’s.

    Forbes article:

    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2006/03/28/afx2629000.html

    GlobalSecurity.Org:

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/saudi/al-sulayyil-imagery.htm

  128. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    By the way Don, the article posted on my blog a while back about a theoretical Israeli strike on Iran involving NNEMP has been read several times of late by folks whose IPs resolve to three specific Iranian cities: Tehran, Ahvaz and Natanz.

  129. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks for the information Sean. I am sure some in Iran will continue to be interested in your views. What you say kind of hits close to home for them…so to speak.

    Sean’s blog is http://eschatologytoday.blogspot.com/

    Sean is also Associate Director, Military Affairs at Northeast Intelligence Network. http://homelandsecurityus.com/

    I hope you have a healthy and fulfilling New Year Sean, it certainly won’t be a dull one.

  130. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Don, and my prayers to you and yours for a healthy and prosperous 2011 as well.

    The current DEBKAfile report reiterates what I stated above regarding North Korean N-tests. It may well be the final “red line” crossed for the Iranian nuclear program. Stuxnet preformed its functions in Iran’s enrichment facilities very well, but the newly revealed enrichment cascades and the advanced nature of that facility in North Korea were untouched by it. The next seismic indication coming from the DPRK will tell us the current status of the Iranian nuclear weapons program.

  131. Rob MaddenNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I’ve been reading throught this blog, and was quite suprised that you believe, as Bill Salus, that the first six seals happen before the Rapture. When it’s very clear that the Kings of the earth say it’s the Wrath of the Lamb! I believe the Church will experience “run-ups” (of Tribulation) to the 70th. week, through the Psalm 83, Isa.19, Ez. 38,39 wars, among other things.

    Please direct me to any articles that you have written that conclude the Church goes through the Rev. 6 seal judgments. A definite part of God’s wrath. (Rev.6:17)

    I would put the Seal judgments in the first half of the 70th. Week.

    Thanks for all the work you do.

    your Friend,

    Rob madden

  132. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Rob,

    Your view of what I believe is wrong. I do not believe the first six seals are before the Rapture as you indicated. I believe the Rapture is always imminent and that no signs are required before it.

    I do believe that some of the seals are opened before the final seven years. My rational is given in my Revelation Commentary (on top bar)but in short it goes somewhat like this:

    Israel is not mentioned at all until the 6th seal is opened. The final seven years mentioned in Daniel is about the years remaining for Israel but until after the four horsemen it could be mainly about Gentile nations

    I believe that after the Ezekiel 38 war there will be a burning of weapons for seven years by Israel. It stops at exactly seven years because Israel flees to the mountains when the Holy Place is defiled. There she will be protected by Michael from the Antichrist for the 42 months of the great tribulation.

    Thus, when the world is expecting some kind of New Age Christ to appear seven years after the Rapture and seven years after the God of Israel becomes known through the Ezekiel war and after the world rejects the truth given to the world by the two prophets. They will still expect some world savior to appear to deliver them from this Jewish kingdom and they will receive a lie and a counterfeit called the Antichrist(probably believed to be the reincarnation of Zeus in a man). Then the world goes into the 42 month great tribulation until Jesus returns.

    So I think there is at least 10 1/2 years from the Rapture until the second coming of Jesus with all his Saints to set up the earthly Kingdom and that within those first 3 1/2 years of that 10.5 years some of the first seals play-out.

    The first seals are not judgments from God they are a picture of time of conquest and great wars of man on the earth. I think it may even be a Satanic counterfeit tribulation using hate and man’s wars to prime the world for Satan’s savior after many in the world think they already went through tribulation spoken by many religions.

    The wrath of the Lamb followed by the wrath of God does not begin until the sixth seal.

    I know many eschatologists have put all the seals, the trumpets and the vials in a seven year package but there is really nothing in scripture that says it will happen that way. It just says the prince that will come will confirm a covenant for seven years with the many and we also know from scripture that there is seven years left for Israel but nobody is denying that. But, the world is not Israel.

    Other than that, you just see 3.5 year periods mentioned but it does not say that two of them add up to a seven year period of turmoil on earth, That is really conjecture. It also could be 10.5 years or even longer. Perhaps that is why Jesus said that those that see the first signs (seals) will not pass away before all is complete. I like Bill, think that those that are putting all their hope in everything being completed 70 or 80 years from the birth of Israel are putting themselves in a box that probably will not hold water.

    Did the generation that will not pass away really start in 1948 with a nation full of dry bones that is still rejecting the God of Israel and His Son? Or does it start when the flesh comes on the bones and God put His spirit in them? Further, would God use the UN to bring back Israel? More likely Satan wants to bring all the Jews back before God’s time to destroy them there in a great war. Nonetheless, God is not going to allow that to happen.

    Sorry to have to be brief, and that this probably is not well put and hard to understand but I cannot spend more time on explaining this because I am backlogged with emails and posts wanting responses, and I also am in the middle of doing my pain in the butt taxes.

  133. @Rob and Don – Why would the church go through God’s wrath when Paul tells us explicitly that “we are not appointed to wrath?” (I Thessalonians 5:9). And if we are crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20) then we have already paid all penalty for our sins in Christ – the worst penalty imaginable, crucifixtion. The idea of a mid or post-trib rapture or the church going through any of the seal judgments thus becomes almost blasphemous.

  134. Patrick
    You have not heard what Don has just stated.
    “I (DON) do not believe the first six seals are before the Rapture as you indicated. I believe the Rapture is always imminent and that no signs are required before it.”
    We do not agree on everything but to know what Don believes requires READING and digesting what he says. The Church can be ‘caught away’ at any time (at this very moment are you listening for the voice of the arch-angel and the trump of God?). If the Lord were to call his church today we will not be here tomorrow; then the things of Revelation will take their course regardless of our differences in understanding end-time chronology.

  135. DonNo Gravatar says:

    That is correct. Neither I nor Rob believe that the Church will go through God’s wrath. I think the confusion is in those that believe the first seals are part of the wrath of God. Revelation does not say that the four horsemen are part of God’s wrath. The wrath of the Lamb does not start until the 6th seal and I think it occurs because of the persecution of the saints at the fifth seal. The wrath of the Lamb are the Trumpet judgments and the wrath of The Father is the seven vials

  136. Rob maddenNo Gravatar says:

    Patrick, I understand what Don said,

    “I (DON) do not believe the first six seals are before the Rapture as you indicated. I believe the Rapture is always imminent and that no signs are required before it.”

    But he goes on to say that he believes the seal judgments are prior to the 70th. week of daniel. when we know the church won’t be her. If you take Revelation 1:19 which says,

    Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

    You can divide the Book of Revelation tis way:

    1. The things which thou hast seen – Chapter One
    2. The thing which are – “Church age” Chapter two & three
    3. The things which shall be hereafter – Rapture, Daniel’s 70 Week, and Revelation of Christ

    You could say that after the rapture(an unknown date) there could be some time before the signing of the covenant! (triggers 70th. week or 7 years)

    In between the Rapture and Signing of Covenant Revelation 4-5 could be from a day to years! But when we get to chapter 6 we discover judgments that fall upon the world, which are allowed by God. And when thes seal judgments are over, 1.5 billion lives are killed (rev.6:8)! If thats not the time of Jacob’s trouble, then what is?

    Note also where the martyrs are, and what they’re saying:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    1. They were under the altar! Church age believers are present with the Lord when they die.
    2. The church age saints have already gotten their robes in chapter 4.
    3. If I died in my sleep tonight, I (a church age believer)would have no reason to say what these Trib. saints are saying.

    And finally and most convincively, the people upon whom these judgments fall on say this:

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Clearly, they believe they are in Daniel’s 70 week. Revelation is clearly the beginning of the 70 week of daniel. Consider the seal the birth pangs that start out slow and not so harsh. But the “great” pain is around the corner, when the Anti Christ wets himself up as God and demands worship.

    The seals are a series of 21 judgments that take place during Daniel’s 70th. week.

    Count on it.

    The Church get its tough times probably during the Psalm 83, Isa. 17, & Gog-magog Wars! Daniel’s 70th. Week is for Israel, not the Church.

    Thank you for listening!

    Pastor Rob Madden

  137. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Rob,

    You keep misstating what I believe and your arguments are reasoning’s that are based on one view of Revelation that you bought into. That does not mean they are correct or incorrect but to then use them as support for everything else in the sequence of prophetic events is circular reasoning. I mean to say we know the Church will not be here because we all know the seals are in the final seven years is circular reasoning. We do not all know that the Church will not be here for the first seals. At least some of us don’t and those that do are actually reading their own conjectures into scripture.

    As I said the seals are not the judgments as you claim. If they were God would be judging His own Saints with persecution at seal five.

    I think some of the seals are before the final seven years. I do not believe that the 6th and 7th seal is because the sixth seal announces the wrath of the Lamb and the sealing of the 144,000 Israelis.

    You give a specific dispensational view of Revelation and make arguments from it as if that it the only argument possible in Bible prophecy.

    Also, your arguments are way off topic we are not discussing your view of Revelation here.

    I simply do not have the time to argue all the different points you made. I could argue with every book ever written on the subject because nobody agrees on everything. There is no point to argument with those who have bible prophecy all figured out.

    I wrote my own Revelation commentary in a ebook that is on the top bar if you care to know and if you disagree welcome to the Bible prophecy club. We all disagree on things. But, just quoting Pentecost like what he wrote is the prophetic law of how Revelation should be interpreted is not going to change my views.

    This is now a couple of times that you said I believe things that I do not. Find out what I actually teach before you jump to conclusions.

  138. PatrickNo Gravatar says:

    @Brian,
    I know what Don and Rob stated because I read their posts before commenting. I was commenting on the widely held belief that the church will go through part or all of the tribulation. Read and Digest.

  139. Ken CNo Gravatar says:

    Don asked, “Did the generation that will not pass away really start in 1948 with a nation full of dry bones that is still rejecting the God of Israel and His Son? Or does it start when the flesh comes on the bones and God put His spirit in them?”

    Here’s how I’ve come to understand Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel describes the dry bones as coming together and then covered by flesh, “but there was no breath (spirit) in them”. Paul describes a similar thing in Romans 8, “They that are in the flesh cannot please God…now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

    Right now, today, March 6th, 2011, The Jews in Israel are “fleshy”. They are “in the flesh” not yet in the spirit, that is, with the spirit of God “in them”. But, He will put his spirit in them Eze 37:9. How? By reuniting the spiritual with the physical, as in the two sticks of verse 16 onward? And they will be one in his hand.

    While currently the Jews inhabit certain portions of the land, they are not “living” in the land in the sense that to be alive is to possess the spirit of God within. We know that Adam was created but was not “living” until God breathed into his nostrils. And can we not safely assume that the “church” (out called ones), was probably created when John baptized Christ, and Jesus began his ministry of “calling out” certain ones? But that the “church” was not living until the day of Pentecost, when the spirit was breathed into it.

    I would tend to think that we are situated, in the prophetic time line, somewhere between Ezekiel 37: 8 and 9, if, as most scholars believe, that almost all of Ezekiel’s prophecies are in chronological order and precisely dated. We probably have not yet seen the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. The question then becomes, will we know it when we see it?

  140. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Yes, and is this spiritual renew of the people back toward the covenant that God made with Israel, perhaps after the Psalm 83 war Israel will do just that. That could be the putting forth of leaves or shoots on the dead fig tree.

    Is that the generation that will not pass away before all is fulfilled? Seems to me that it is.

    I think when Jesus was saying that this generation would not pass away He was not talking about a few old people that were born in 1948 remaining until His coming. He was saying most of the adult Jews living to see the first signs will also see all fulfilled. The people in Israel today do not even understand this prophecy and they would not be looking for any fulfillment, so why did Jesus even talk about it if nobody but the Church understands it? This passage was not to inform the Church about the timing of His return it was to inform Israel.

  141. @ Patrick
    Sorry Patrick, I took your question as an accusation not a comment on a generally held belief.
    @ Ken C
    “The question then becomes, will we know it when we see it?”
    The question is, will the Church be here to see it, can the Church and a spiritual Israel be coterminous?

  142. Ken CNo Gravatar says:

    Brian from Oz, agreed. I suspect the Church will be with Christ.

  143. Hi Don
    I am still discovering things on your site. Re your article “Is the war of Psalm 83 and a greatly enlarged Israel imminent as in “Isralestine”?”
    Your view of how the war of Psalm 83 might evolve has real merit and very much in line with your comments regarding a western backlash against Islam. I see that as a real possibility.

    A significant question to all our differing views regarding ‘end time’ scenarios is, what effect will the Rapture of the Church have on the main players? Would an immediate rapture alter the present scheme of things. Every nation will lose their spiritual/moral core, with certain nations being decimated by that loss. As one of the main players today, your country comes to mind immediately.

    What effect would this have on the United State’s ability to continue as a free nation; martial law would almost certainly be imposed and I can see that happening elsewhere. Russia would be affected also but to a much lesser degree. This does open a huge field of conjecture or do you think the political economic situation would still play out as you foresee it?

    If you have answered this elsewhere could you point me the way?

  144. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Brian down in Oz,

    After the Rapture without the restraining influence of Holy Spirit indwelt Christians the whole world is going to go to hell in a hand-basket. Freedom everywhere will rapidly become a thing of the past.

    Speculating on the effects that the aftermath of the Rapture will have in various nations on the earth is getting way off topic on a post where the many comments have already make this file too big.

  145. Bob HandleyNo Gravatar says:

    Dear Don:

    You apparently missed one BIG POINT in your critique of Bill Salus’ book, Isralestine, and that is, Obadiah 1:18 – you made no reference to it. I believe this event as described in Obadiah coincides with the Psalm 83 war. In Obadiah, it says that the descendants of Esau (the modern day Palestinians residing in the southern West Bank and Gaza strip) will be completely destroyed. Those descendants live south of Israel in the Gaza area as well as parts of Jordan. Will this be a conventional war? I don’t think so. Most likely it will be a preemptive strike by Israel as I believe that the 83rd Psalm relates to a consortium of nations banding together with the sole purpose of the annihilation of the nation of Israel… those Arab countries identified as Edom, Philistines, Assur-Syria, Hagarenes (Egypt), Ammon (Jordan), Moab (Jordan), Amelek (Saudia Arabia) and Tyre (Lebanon – Hezbollah) surrounding Israel will be such an imminent threat to Israel that they will have no other option but to declare war on them – a preemptive stike. Israel through it’s intelligence sources will most likely know that these Arab nations will imminently send 80,000-100,000 rockets into Israel attempting to totally destroy them. To prevent the destruction of Israel, they (Israel) will have to preemptively strike these nations first, and with nuclear weapons (and I believe that Israel has a varied assortment of them).

    And when does this event happen? There is a lot speculation as to when Israel will be involved in this war. I believe it will be a short war, and nuclear. Israel will have no other choice but to use their nuclear weapons. This war may take place before the Rapture, but most likely thereafter. I believe strongly that there will be a gap of unknown time between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation. Possibly, and I say possibly, that the Magog War of Ezekiel 38 and 39 might commence sometime toward the end of this gap period. The whole problem is that during the Magog war we know God will destroy 5/6th of the northern confederacy, and it will take 7 years to burn their weapons. At the mid-point of the Tribulation, there will be only 1/3 of the Jews that are saved and they will be preserved by God most likely in the Red Rose City of Petra. Therefore, these weapons will have to be destroyed prior to the mid-point of the Tribulation and most likely sometime prior.

    Waiting to hear from you.

    Bob Handley
    Irmo, SC

  146. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bob,

    I am sure I missed a lot of points when I critiqued “Isralestine” What you said sounds very plausible. Obviously if Israel is going to be living securely before the Ezekiel 38 war the Palestinian threat is going to have to be removed.

    A couple of years ago I came to believe that the Psalm 83 war will be before the 70th week and before the Ezekiel 38 war. It is the only way that I can see Israel living securely before the Gog war.

    I also teach that there will be a short gap between the end of the Gog war and the Rapture and the 70th week. I think that gap will be 3.5 years. I say that because Israel will burn the weapons of war for seven years. Apparently they will need to stop when they flee to the mountains seven years later (at the mid point of that final seven years). I also think that many in the world will be expecting some kind of Christ to appear seven years after the Rapture. So they will receive the Antichrist and that is why the whole world is partying when the Jewish prophets are killed. They will believe that they arrived to the New Age or the Kingdom Age. Instead the Kingdom established by the Antichrist is called, Babylon the Great, by God.

  147. Cheryl says:

    You said that you don’t think Israel can win alone with all the Arab nations coming against her -something like that. Well Israel does win alone, but with the help of God. God want’s it to be this way so He can show His Glory and that He is the God of Israel. It says so in Ezekiel 38 & 39. And also you said if Israel’s boundaries were to expand they don’t have enough people to populate those areas and to keep them sovereign or something like that. Well again you have forgotten about God. Israel can’t, but God can.

  148. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Cheryl,

    The Psalm 83 war does not have to be won by Israel alone. I think it becomes part of a much wider world war against Arab or even Islamic states. God can use allies to carry this out. If you been reading what I actually suggest, you would see that I believe this world war will bring about the revived Roman Empire and that Israel will become a state in it. The Old Roman Empire occupied all those Middle East areas around Israel and Israel itself was part of the Old Roman Empire. Obviously if Israel becomes part of the New Roman Empire and the whole area is again under the protection of a greater Rome she will have the peace and security necessary for the Ezekiel 38 & 39 prophecy to be fulfilled.

    There is nothing in scripture that says God makes Himself known to Israel or the nations in the Psalm 83 war. That does not happen until the later Ezekiel 38, 39 war. So Israel is not going to be suddenly trusting in God after her nearby Arab enemies are defeated through warfare. On the contrary, she will be trusting in the revived Roman Empire and that is why there is a seven year covenant with the Prince that will arise in it.

  149. The more I read from this blog and others with the same end-times savvy, the more it seems clear that Psalm 83 will not happen until the Muslim Brotherhood has control of the nations neighbouring Israel. When that happens there will come the fulfilment of verses 3 to 5. I doubt if they will ‘hang about’ once things are in place.

    These nations must be ruled by a fundamentalist Islamic ‘politburo’ and who else is there ready and waiting their opportunity?

    Keeping an eye on regime change in the middle east and the part the Brotherhood plays in it has become an interesting pastime.

  150. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I agree, and the Iranian Shiite influence is probably the first thing that the Muslim Brotherhood removes from the nations around Israel. That may be the reason why Iran is not involved in the Psalm 83 war

  151. Bob HandleyNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don:

    I believe it is difficult to put a “3.5” year gap between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation. It may be more, and maybe a lot more…we just don’t know. I would have to disagree with you as far as other nations coming to the aid of Israel during the Psalm 83 war. Israel at that time will see it’s enemy about to invade them and will, in order to preserve their nation, conduct a preemptive war with nuclear weapons – perhaps using SCALAR weapons which I believe Israel has. If Israel wainted and allowed the Arab confederacy to start the Psalm 83 war, Israel would suffer greatly and the damage would be horrific, in my opinion. I think the Psalm 83 war will be a very quick one, and not extended out over a long period of time. The Arab nations surrounding Israel will cease to exist in a very short period of time….it just has to be that way. Then too, the other Moslem countries will see the horrific destruction and will not want any part of the war….I believe it will be the IDF alone who destroys the surrounding Arab nations. Why? Because I believe it will be sudden and I don’t believe Israel will use conventional weapons. If the IDF uses nuclear weapons, they will have to be clean weapons leaving no radioactivity that would harm the IDF and Israeli citizens. Also, I think the Psalm 83 war could happen during the gap period and shortly after the Rapture. There is no way of knowing when it will occur, but I think it will be the next major war…probably WW3. I’m afraid there is a lot of speculation here as the Word of God doesn’t set forth a time frame. Need your comment on Obadiah 1:18.

    The only warning I know of, is, keep looking up, for your redemption draweth nigh.

  152. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I do not see why it is difficult to put a 3.5 year gap between the Rapture and the start of the last 7 year for Israel? Some put no gap and others put various short time periods. Anyway, I explained my position in the last comment. Nothing has to happen the way I think it will anyway. Nobody has this stuff all figured out.

    I was not suggesting that the revived Roman Empire fights the nations that intend to attack Israel in Psalm 83. I said that war may turn out to be just part of a much wider world war against Islam. The Eurasia part of the world war might span from India to Europe.

    I have no doubt that Israel can win the war against the nearby Arab nations without the help of Europe. I am only suggesting that the world war will end with a revived Roman Empire. I am not suggesting that the revived Roman Empire will begin at the fulfillment of Psalm 83.

    I do not know if the world war will end with victory over Islam or a compromise but I do think the revived Roman Empire will be the Union that brings about peace in the Middle East and most likely those nations that survive the war will be glad to join the Union.

    The Beast has to rise to power somehow and I just do not see it happening anytime soon through the stupidity of the present EU. Great leaders come to power in time of war. They are given power that no one will ever get through democracy.

    My comment on Ob 1:18 is that what was said will happen. I guess it is plausible that it could happen in the Psalm 83 war. I do NOT think Israel is going to nuke everyone that forms a confederacy against them as described in Psalm 83. If they nuke anyone they are going to need proof that they had no other choice. That may be the case with Damascus but nuking the nations south of them just does not seem plausible to me. How do they get peace and security after doing that? There would be an immediate UN counter action.

    More likely these nations are destroyed by a act of God rather than a act of the IDF. However, nobody really knows how this will all play out either. I find all these speculations on things that we can’t possibly know to be rather fruitless.

  153. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    I was just reading these posts and thought I might mention that one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, “The War Scroll” specifically, mentions many of the same nations/ethnic identities as Psalm 83. It speaks of “the Kittim of Asshur come in alliance with the biblical enemies Edom, Moab, Ammon, and Philistia.” It said this war would go through three distinct phases and would last for more than 40 years. The first phase sounded very much like Psalm 83, and the second like Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38 (i.e. “the kings of the North), and the final phase seems like the Battle of Har Megiddo.

    I have to read further, but thought I’d mention this to you.

    Sean

  154. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Sean,

    Wow! that is quite a find. You mean there actually could be forty more years until Har Megiddo? Was Isaac Newton correct – 2060? Or are you really saying that we have been in Psalm 83 since 1948 and next we will see the final phase of that war followed by Ezekiel 38, followed by Megiddo. Does the war scroll say anything about the periods between the three war phases?

  155. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    It was quite by accident. I literally stumbled upon a mention of ‘The War Scroll’ and began reading a .pdg translation synopsis. My problem with it is whether or not the text can be viewed as Divinely inspired, or is it an Essene expansion on the themes of the 1st Temple period prophets. This study is going to take some time, but i do get the impression that these Essenes believed a war very much akin to Psalm 83 would be followed by an Ezekiel 38/39 war and then the apocalyptic war to end all wars. The timing between is unspecific, but there does not appear to be a significant gap of time betwen the wars, almost as if one leads directly to the next.

    Most who’ve studied this scroll agree that it was written in the latter half of the 1st century BC based upon the types of weapons described and the military terminology that dominate the text. Also, there is nothing past tense in the scroll, it is all future tense. In this text the word “Kittim” appears to be the Romans, meaning, Westerners from Europe. A secondary set of interetations favors “kittim” to be a reference to the Seleucid Macedonian/Greeks – which is also in keeping with a Western European context. It specifically refers the the Gog/Magog war by naming the primary enemy as descendants of Japheth. The final was is definitively global in nature- Armageddon, the goal of which is not to establish Israel in the land but to usher in complete redemption and an eternal kingdom of YHWH.

    Sean

  156. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean,

    I just got done reading it. One can find a English translation of it by just googling “The War Scroll”

    I do not think it is inspired by God and I don’t think the end times is going to happen as said in the scroll. It is a fascinating read though, and it shows just how much understanding faithful Jews had about God and their own prophetic scriptures. One might even think a Spirit filled Christian wrote it, but we know it was written before Jesus.

    It seems to be a combination of some ancient Israeli war plan and OT eschatology. I wonder if the writer had access to a book about some ideal order of battle that now no longer exists? Otherwise, the writer was quite creative.

    I guess it is possible that this was the 1st century BC version of a very creative Bible prophecy speculator like we have in such abundance today. :???:

    In any case, one can get insights into what true Jews thought of God before the incarnation and its not surprising that they had similar understanding of Eschatology that we have since they read the same prophets that we do. About the only thing they were missing to understand the end times was what Jesus said about it and the Book of Revelation. Even so,that is a big deal because we have Eschatological information that they did not know. So, there may be truth in the scroll that we do not know and can glean but if it conflicts what we do know than that information should be rejected.

  157. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I’ve now completed my reading. I agree, the information the Essenes wrote in “The War Scroll” should be completely rejected – it is not Divinely sourced. This can be proven in the fact that the Essenes denied the doctrine of literal Resurrection. Such teaching did not come from the Holy Spirit.

  158. PhilNo Gravatar says:

    Phew. Just ploughed my way through those years of posts. Brilliant!
    I just wanted to fire off a few ideas for you all to chew over. These are not anything I am dogmatic or even scripturally sure about, so don’t burn me for heresy.

    The Club of Rome has (the last time I checked) a membership of Ten. One of whom is a member of the Hashemite royal family, giving it Middle Eastern presence. = BEAST FROM THE SEA.

    The Catholic apostate church seeking power, both temporal and spiritual. = HARLOT RIDING THE BEAST.

    The Pope. Considered by Catholics to have power both temporal and spiritual. And claims to be the embodiement of Christ. Claims the right to add to or delete scripture. A priest/king. = ANTICHRIST.

    Islam. A false religion created by a false prophet that Rome is trying to embrace. Does a deal that nominates their man as the Mahdi and second in command. = THE FALSE PROPHET.

    The covenant that Israel enters into with the many, that is strengthened by the Antichrist. May not be simply a peace treaty. It may be THE TREATY OF ROME. One of the purposes of that treaty was to ensure peace amongst it’s signatories.

    The war that keeps the rest of the Arabs occupied whilst Israel does a Psalm 83 on it’s immediate neighbors may be the current civil wars of the Arab Spring.

    The idea expressed in this thread that the Antichrist is both a demonic spirit and a man fits in so many ways. The apostle Paul referred to a “spirit of Antichrist” in the world during his day.
    Some believe that all demonic spirits are those of the angelic/human hybrids (Nephilim). Who according to the book of Enoch, roam the earth.
    The Bible tell us that these hybrids existed after the flood. Is it possible that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a hybrid possessed by the spirit of Antichrist/Apollyon, and that the Antichrist will also be a hybrid possessed by the same spirit? It may be a reason why God calls him a beast!

    I had to smile when back up this thread someone mentioned the British royal family. David Icke insists they are reptilians. Well, I am a step closer to believing it since reading an article in a news paper recently that British kings and queens of old commonly ate human flesh and used ground up human body parts as potions for their various ailments.
    I will make some excuse the next time the queen invites me to dinner :)

  159. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Phil,

    I think You did a good job putting it all together so now write a book about the fine details and avoid those Reptilians blue bloods or they will have you for lunch.

  160. DavidNo Gravatar says:

    I thought we were still unsure of the Club Of Rome (revived Roman Empire)…is it 10 members or is it 10 divisional branches segregating the world ?

    I can mostly agree with the Catholic Church scenario in the future but it’s clearly not time yet by the current pope…although, the current pope kissing the Quran was bothersome.

    I thought it was clear that the “Mahdi” was the one we, Christians, are going to call the anti-Christ….and the False Prophet is the one that Islam will call Jesus. And the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, was the one that Islam is going to call the anti-Christ…which leads to Armageddon.

    I won’t go further, if I’m off, straighten me out here please.

  161. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David,

    Don’t get all worked up about Phil’s conjectures even He will admit that what he said is his conjecture.

    Did the current Pope kiss the Qur’an or was it really John Paul? Perhaps it was both.

    There is no Mahdi and there never will be a Mahdi; a Mahdi is a figure out of Muslim pagan folklore. False prophecies out of Islam do not come true. Actually the False Prophet is probably a Pope that has Jewish blood from his mother side, IMHO. Heck, he may now be an Arab with some Jewish blood that is a Catholic Cardinal, Bishop or priest that sometime down the line gets elected as Pope. Think about those implications.

    Islam is not going to call Jesus Christ the Antichrist. Islam will probably not even exist after the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel 38 war, it will be absorbed by the world Harlot.

    Anyway, except for the last sentence we are getting off the post topic in these conjectures on other issues. I probably already have posts that deal with almost every conjecture brought up here other than the reptilians, and they would be a class of demons anyway.

  162. PhilNo Gravatar says:

    David. Please express your thoughts if you can stay within the blog rules.
    I only posted what I did, the way that I did, because I am not sure about what I am saying. But I have a feeling that it has something to it that is more than just a shot in the dark.

    I could have said ‘it is from our Lord’. But I am not sure. And hands up! How many of us have ever been really sure?
    Only one?
    Well, I wish I could be so confident!

    Father tells us that in the last days knowledge will increase. I know there is some dispute over whether that is spiritual knowledge or scientific. I think it is both. And I think it is by us all putting our heads together that it will happen, in the prophetic arena; just as it has in the scientific.
    I have been hunting around the web for prophetic views for a very long time. This thread has been one of the best I have ever come across. Well done. Keep going!

  163. PhilNo Gravatar says:

    It was John Paul who kissed the Quran.

    I have just found out that the WEU (Western European Union)is to be dissolved the end of this month. It is a ten state federation hiding inside the EU. It had control over the military. Formed in 1948 (a good date for prophetic fulfillment). It was one of my prime suspects after the EU expanded to the point were it could no longer fit the bill.
    Don’t you just hate it when that happens?

  164. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Phil,

    Yeah, those looking for the fulfillment of the revival of the Roman Empire have had a lot of false starts. I now think it will be on almost the same borders of the Old Roman Empire which would include North Africa and parts of the Middle East as well as most of Western Europe. How will this happen? It will probably come after a world war against at least the more radical Islamic states, and yeah, I do see a Papal connection with demonic Marian apparitions helping to bring about the end of the war. How does this relate to the war of Psalm 83? What is said in Psalm 83 might start that war or Psalm 83 may just be a battle over Israel within that larger war.

  165. PhilNo Gravatar says:

    You may be right and it may be happening already with the Arab Spring and civil war in Sudan. I may be wrong, but I can’t imagine Psalm 83 happening in full view of the world. They won’t even let Israel take limited action to defend itself without screaming blue murder.

    The Flotilla heading for Gaza is going to have to be dealt with. That could provoke attacks on Israel by it’s neighbors.
    Tensions are rising inside Israel. The IDF arrested a couple of Hamas and PA leaders last night.
    Egypt has opened it’s border with Gaza which will allow an increase in weapons flow to Hamas. I can’t see the IDF allowing that for long.
    There is a row going on between the two Hamas HQs in Gaza and Damascus over policy changes toward Israel. And there is an internal power struggle going on in Iran that could result them losing some of their control over Hezbollah, who I think might take it on themselves to get involved in the mess that Syria is now in. Who knows? Maybe Israel won’t be responsible for flattening Damascus.

  166. DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Phil,

    With tail between my legs, I apologize for the abrupt challenge to you. I do disagree in some minor areas, but the facts are, you are pretty much right on, on your conjecture.

    And since I have to stay on topic, this is not the place for the minor debate.

  167. Don FrittsNo Gravatar says:

    Phil ,
    If Israel is pushed into a corner they will take military action. Whomever “they” is really
    doesn’t matter. This whole Arab Spring movement may be God’s way of setting up the Arabs/Muslims for His purpose, time will tell. The orginial question was : Does the Psalm 83
    conflict occur befeore Ezekiel 38 and 39 ? I think it has to because in Ezekiel Israel is dwelling securely . The present situation is volatile , nothing close to secure. Everytime we
    think we know what God is going to do next , He has a surprise for us. Don is correct that
    we who are able should be doing all we can to promote evangelism in Israel. The one weapon we
    all have is prayer. BLESSINGS !!!!!!!

  168. PhilNo Gravatar says:

    Dave. No offence was taken. I have very thick skin anyway. I need it for some of the very nasty Islamist sites I post on.

    Don. I am in total agreement with you. I support an evangelical group called Christian Friends of Israel. They evangelise in Israel to Jews and Arabs. And I post on some websites based there. God’s word has power to save.

  169. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    Got an Email notification that this discussion is alive and kicking. Not sure if I’ve stated previously in this thread what I am about to state because it is a long thread… however,

    Don Fritts wrote:

    “The orginial question was : Does the Psalm 83 conflict occur befeore Ezekiel 38 and 39? I think it has to because in Ezekiel Israel is dwelling securely .”

    The answer to this question is a resounding YES, Psalm 83 occurrs prior to Ezekiel 38/39.

    In Ezekiel 39, verses 11 through 16 (“The Burial of Gog”) God describes the “valley of the Passengers” as being Israel. This valley and those environs centered around Dhiban is today the western part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. By the time Ezekiel 38/39 kicks off it is Israel proper, to quote Ezekiel, “says the Lord GOD.” Ezekiel is quoting Almighty God in the first-person:

    The Burial of Gog

    ““It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord GOD. “They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass through the land and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man’s bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. The name of the city will also be Hamonah. Thus they shall cleanse the land.””

    From an article I wrote two years ago:

    ““The valley of the Passengers,” bounded on the south by the 45-mile long Arnon River, is strongly referenced in Numbers 21:14-15 and in Isaiah 16:2. The central town of this valley was known in ancient times as Dibon, or as the Israelite tribe of Gad called it Dibon-Gad. This town is currently known as Dhiban, and lies just north of ancient Aroer. (See Numbers 21:30, Numbers 32:34, and Numbers 33:45). In Joshua 13:17 this town was given to the tribe of Reuben. According to an entry at Biblos.com, “The form of the name, Dimon, in Isaiah 15 may have been given to make it resemble the Hebrew word dam, (blood) to support the play upon words in the verse.” This is also consistent with the vivid description of the destruction God inflicts upon the Gog/Magog hordes. It does appear to this writer that modern Dhiban may well be officially renamed “Hamonah.” Indeed, if one executes a Google search today for “Hamonah” the first result will be a map identifying Dhiban, Jordan as Hamonah. Upon fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39 the valley of the Passengers will then henceforth be known as the valley of Hamongog.”

    Blessings to all,
    Sean

  170. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Sean,

    Thanks for that input, it is a good point from scripture that I have not even considered.

    It only stands to reason that if Israel is burying the dead in a valley east of the Dead Sea in Jordan after the Ezekiel 38-39 war that “Ammon” (Jordan) mentioned in Psalm 83 cannot come with the others mention in Psalm 83 in a war against Israel that is living in peace after Israel is already in possession of at least part of Jordan. (If Israel only possessed part of Jordan there certainly would be a state of war with the rest of Jordan. Therefore, Israel could not be living in peace and security as stated in Ezekiel when Gog comes down. The logical conclusion then is that the nation of Jordan does not exist when Gog comes down because she was defeated in the Psalm 83 war.)

  171. Dan NewberryNo Gravatar says:

    Interesting stuff… on the Ezekiel 38/39 war, I think most folks put it pre-trib because of the fact that Israel burns the weapons for fuel for 7 years. My personal opinion is that the millennium isn’t going to be as different (at first) from the earth as we see it now. I think people will still burn wood for fuel. AK-47’s have a fair amount of wood on them, too… so it could be that the wood from those rifles, dropped by the tens of millions, is what Israel burns at the intro to the millennium. Christ will build the Ezekiel temple, of course… I think He will not speak it into existence, but He will actually build it.

    I think another good reason to put Ezekiel 38/39 IN the tribulation is that if it is not, don’t you think it is odd that Ezekiel would prophesy about that war, then TOTALLY skip anything to do with something as traumatic as the tribulation, then go right to telling us about the millennial temple? Why does Ezekiel not mention the tribulation? Perhaps he does… Dan

  172. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dan,
    The fact that it is exactly 7 years is probably significant. That would not be the case if they were burning the weapons in the millennium. I find it hard to accept that Israel will be cleansing the land and burying the bones of Gog’s army when those killed during Armageddon are killed in a completely different area and there is no indication that the forces of the nations that come with the Antichrist are buried at all.

    The problem with putting the Ezekiel war in the Millennium is that you cannot show me any prophecy outside of Ezekiel that supports that view. It can’t be the war of Armageddon for various reasons. So if it is prior to Armageddon but within the seven years, that kind of destroys the burning of weapons for seven years during the Millennium implication that you made. It would be rather difficult for Israel to be hid in the mountains for 3.5 years and also to be fulfilling the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39 at the same time.

    So Why does Ezekiel skip the tribulation? Maybe because the vision is not about the tribulation. In sequence these Ezekiel chapters are talking about the restoration of Israel and how God will defeat her enemies to bring her back to belief in YHWH and only when that happens does the final seven weeks start. Neither the prophets of the first 3 1/2 years are mentioned in Ezekiel or the fleeing to the mountains for 3 1/2 years because apparently this war happens before these events. Remember if this war happens before the final seven years then this war is still occurring during the time of the Gentiles so the seven years that God deals with Israel to complete the transgression mentioned by Daniel has not even started yet. So since this war is not within that last week of years for the Jews there is no reason to mention what is already mentioned in the prophecies that discuss those final seven years. But then since Ezekiel is taking about the restoration process outside of those final seven years needed to complete the 490 years of transgression, it also would include the millennial events.

  173. Dan NewberryNo Gravatar says:

    You could be right, of course… this is an issue with great minds on both sides of the matter, and small minds like mine trying to make some sense of it all. :)

    There’s a lot of rich perspective for either case out there on the ‘net worth considering.

    Ezekiel’s failure to mention the tribulation just seems dumbfounding to me–especially considering the jump right into the millennial temple description, and the sacrifices, etc.

    Too, it just doesn’t seem from the looks of things in the world today that there is even enough time for an Ezekiel 38/39 war to play out, then for some of the same nations that got handily whooped in that battle to have time to back up and re-group and re-arm, all for another go at it during the tribulation.

    I’ll probably remain, at least for now, of the persuasion that the reconciling attributes of these two battles are too large to ignore, while the presumed problems with them can be understood with a bit of thoughtful study.

  174. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dan,

    I agree that none of the explanations that I have heard seem to answer all the questions and that is why there is such a diversity of opinion on the timing of the Ezekiel 38-39 war. I just have to go with what I think best fits.

    I disagree that that there is not time for Ezekiel 38/39 to play out. I do not think we are even within a decade of that war yet. Russia is not ready and something has to happen to the inner ring nations that are not mentioned by Ezekiel. That probably means that there is a war even before the Ezekiel war that changes the Middle East map. The Psalm 83 war may be that war or the Psalm 83 war might be within a larger world war.

  175. Bob HandleyNo Gravatar says:

    I look at the time-line this way, first I believe there will be the Psalm 83 and Obadiah 1:18 war…and this could be before the Tribulation. I lean toward before the start of the Tribulation as there has to be time for restoration. Furthermore, I believe there will be a GAP PERIOD between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation…how long is anybody’s guess. As Bill Salus has put it, Israel after the Psalm 83 war will expand its borders; therefore, it will take time for Israel to refurbish the land that they will acquire. Following the Psalm 83 war, the Magog War will occur sometime thereafter. The GAP PERIOD that I believe will occur after the Rapture gives Israel plenty of time to burn the weapons which will be 7 years and restore the land. I can’t believe that when the Rapture occurs, that the next day the Anti-christ will confirm the 7 year covenant (the start of the 7 year Tribulation Period). That hardly makes sense. Would like to hear comments from others on this subject.

  176. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bob,

    That has been my position as well. I tend to think the burning of the weapons will stop after 7 years because Israel will have to flee to the mountains. Therefore, I think there will be 10.5 years from the time they start burning the weapons until the second coming. The Rapture could even be before that 10.5 year period or occur about the time time. If it were at the same time I could see the world expecting some type of Christ to appear seven years after the end of the war and the Rapture. Thus, they accept the Antichrist.

  177. BryanNo Gravatar says:

    Just want to say thanks for your insights on Isralestine. I have read this book and even taught bible lessons with it as a basis. I am writing a briefing on it for a class I am taking with Koinonia Institute and despite all that I am still digesting this book. Your insights have been a big help

    Thanks

  178. BryanNo Gravatar says:

    In my previous post I was responding to your Article “Is the war of Psalm 83 and a greatly enlarged Israel imminent as in “Isralestine”?”

    Which took me here to comment

  179. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Bryan,
    I am not sure if your talking about my own critique of Isralestine. I wrote that a few years ago when the book first came out.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/a-critique-of-the-book-isralestine-that-suggests-that-the-war-of-psalm-83-is-imminent.html

    I now completely buy into the concept that the Psalm 83 war has to take place before the Gog war but I do not know how Israel gets to do the expansion that Bill Salus suggests unless by general agreement within a much larger world war.

  180. BryanNo Gravatar says:

    Actually the Article that I was referring to is at
    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/war_of_Pslam_83_and_enlarged_Israel.htm

    It may be the same have not had a chance to compare. I also buy into the Psalm 83 scenario but in your article I thank you raised some interesting points regarding Israel having the population to control the expanded borders.

    Like your site. Dave Hunt is also one of my favorite authors.

  181. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks, actually that is the same article that I was talking about. It is just a direct link to the article on my Website rather than going through a teaser on my Blog.

    Dave Hunt is one of my favorite teachers as well.

  182. I just saw this on Debka file:
    ——————————————————–
    The end of Ahmadinejad. His cronies barred from election.
    ———————————————————
    Suddenly, Psalm 83 looks closer than Ezekiel 38

  183. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Bob From Texas,

    I was more concerned with…

    A recent secret White House meeting revealed that an estimated 20,000 portable, heat-seeking missiles appear to have vanished from an Army warehouse in Libya

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/09/27/report-20000-heat-seeking-missiles-may-be-missing-from-libyan-warehouse/

    …even here in the U.S…recently we’ve had weps and other materials that seemed to have disappeared lately.

  184. Don FrittsNo Gravatar says:

    To Everyone who has commented on this subject ,
    Thanks for posing some interesting points of view and questions. I am working my way through all that has been said here and am learning some things. Thanks to all for sharing . BLESSINGS

  185. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Don Fritts,

    Don’t tell Don K. I said this…but Don K. has created something really special here : )

  186. Don FrittsNo Gravatar says:

    David ,
    I know this is just wishful thinking , but I hope Israel got all 20,000 of them. Obama should have been impeached for letting our military be involved in Libya. It was a Libyian Civil War issue and should have been left alone by NATO.

  187. Israel will undoubtedly get many from Hezbo firing positions. They may then become “fed up” and dispatch the rest with a few air strikes.

    Isn’t the Comet Elenin 3 days of darkness supposed to start pretty soon?

  188. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Yeah, I wish Israel had all those missing weps also, but they don’t act that covertly that I know of…and really, it doesn’t matter…if Israel is armed with just a stick and a sling shot, they’re going to prevail anyway.

    Funny you should mention that Obama should be impeached in that sentence…I just read today that Israels approval rating of Obama skyrocketed today…over his stance on the Palestinians, of course.

    I just wonder how the Palestinians feel about being betrayed by one of their own…kidding : )

  189. Obama’s campaign donations are lagging. He needs cash from Jewish bankers and lawyers. He dodged an “incoming 88″ when the Palestinians did not push statehood in the UN. Right now, he is continuing living a “charmed life.” All his moves are well orchestrated. You don’t read much about Palestinian bankers or lawyers – that is not where the heavy money is.

    You are correct – the Israeli’s do not advertise their moves. The 1976 raid on Entebbe (Uganda) to release hostages was a brilliant undertaking that the world found out about when it was completed. Who knows what they have in planning. More recently, STUXNET is being attributed to them.

  190. Martin HoranNo Gravatar says:

    Don, just when I think I have things worked out you tend to come up with something or other that makes me have to take stock and think again!
    You mentioned above that the False Prophet will have Jewish blood.
    (Sorry that I didn’t deal with this when you first mentioned it but I’ve just got onto this part of your site.)
    I had read–a while back on the Cutting Edge Ministries site–that the New Agers believe that the pope will be a facilitator (whatever that means) to the False Prophet.
    This is from their top people who consider themselves to be the illuminati. (I don’t really know either way if there is an illuminati.) Aparently, they get this from their “spirit guides”–demons.
    I personally had thought the False Prophet and the pope were one and the same thing. I’m not sure now. Even so, I don’t see why the FP would have to have Jewish blood. I have heard the same thing of the anti-Christ.
    As the true Christ was a Jew and still is a Jew [Rev 5:5], I had assumed that anti-Christ would have to be the antithesis of Christ, therefore a Gentile. I would have thought, then, that it would be the same with the false prophet.
    Educated by Marists in my schooldays, I was vaguely aware of the anti-Semitism of the Catholic Church’s teachings from a young age. The Catholic Church has rarely been silent about its anti-Jewish stance anyway, or its anti-Israeli one.
    Not so long ago I recall Cardinal O’Brien telling a blatant lie about Israel–unless, of course, it was just an abysmally ignorant statement. And also, Catholic apologists are now claiming that former Irish Jesuit, the late Malachy Martin, was Jewish.
    This rests on the fact that his forename was Malachy–honest! Malachy is English for Malachi and so that is proof he was a Jew. Duh! Actually, Malchy was an Irish “saint” which you’d reckon these erudite people would know.
    My point is, as the Catholic hierarchy are so anti-Semitic, is it likely then that the FP, presumably a Catholic cleric, if not a pope, would have Jewish blood?
    I have read a fair bit on bloodlines. I noticed that Mr Osborne above mentioned them. But I’m fairly sure that genealogy is a real science (I’m an MA in history). I know that there are genealogies in the Bible but, there again, that IS the Word of God, so it’s a foregone conclusion they are 100% true.
    I have read all sorts of arguments–including one that Prince Charles is anti-Christ as deduced from his genealogy.
    The problem with that is, that there was so much fornication among our monarchs that we really don’t always know who’s decended from whom.
    We Scots remember the murder of Rizzio in order to get Mary, Queen of Scots to miscarry the child who was to become King James VI (of Scotland & I of England). As Darnley her husband was a homosexual and Mary herself was involved in his murder, so she could carry on her affair with Bothwell, it’s highly unlikely that Darnley was James’ father.
    In fact, the Stuarts thereafter looked Italian and not Anglo-Saxon.
    Anglo-(or British) Israelism, claims that the Jews and Israel are two separate peoples and the Jews known to the world are actually Esau (which actually many “Palestinians” are).
    To my mind, this is where we go off beam when we get involved in genealogies [1 Tim 1:4 & Titus 3:9].
    I don’t doubt that genealogy, at least to a small extent, can tell us much about whom we are REPORTEDLY descended from. But as we have no idea if the real fathers were always the real fathers we could be missing the mark by a long shot. This is why in Judaism it is through your mother, not your father, that one becomes Jewish.
    Also, we have to consider name changes and adoptions which would not have been recorded.
    It is, of course, different when we have prophecy backing up genealogy–e.g., that it is the real Jews who are in Israel today and they are surrounded by implacable enemies [Psalm 83]. But I don’t think we can do so with individual people especially through secular genealogy.
    Pardon me if you have been asked this before, Don, but can you be certain as to the False Prophet having Jewish blood? I value your views.
    Thanks for taking the time to read this.

  191. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Martin,

    With 200 comments on a post about the timing of Psalm 83 and the Gog Magog war I do not want to branch off into the blood lines of the Antichrist and False prophet. Let me just say I believe the Antichrist comes out of a Gentile nation because Revelation says the first Beast comes out of the sea. I think the False Prophet comes out of Israel because Revelation says the second Beast comes out of the Land.

    Even so, just because the Antichrist rises to power out of a Gentile Beast does not mean that he will not have Jewish blood. Nor does the False Prophet rising out of the land of Israel mean that the Pope cannot be the False Prophet. If you recall there was a Jewish Cardinal recently that some thought might become the next Pope. I believe he is now dead but I might be wrong about that and are there other Cardinals with a Jewish mother? Who even knows for sure? It is also possible as we discuss on this post that the borders of Israel will be extended to the area that Bill Salus suggests, allowing Cardinals in those areas also to be considered in the “Land”.

    One thing that I do know is that I am not certain about anything on this issue.

  192. Review of the Book “Isralestine” by Bill Salus

    The book is an outstanding study. For the average Bible student the book might be difficult because of the accumulation of so many prophetic details alluded to and expounded upon. A more simplistic account can be viewed in a TV interview Mr. Salus did for David Reagan’s ministry: “Lamb and Lion Ministries”.
    http://lamblion.com/television/programs/_pretrib9-salus.php

    First: I have one problem with a point of reference he makes to connect the dots toward his view of:
    a) An Arab genocidal attack on the nation of present day Israel
    b) An Israeli military victory against 10 Arab nations and their terrorist
    associates
    c) Israel’s land expansion (takeover) of those Arab territories
    d) Israel’s spoils of war to include dwelling safely and wealthy in that land

    Second: I offer two points that have not yet been featured in Ps 83 that does connect the dots in support of Mr. Salus’ revelation.

    The Problem: Mr. Salus points to a phrase in Ezek 37:10 “exceeding great army” as an indicator that Israel as a nation would become a military force in these last days. While it is true Israel today does have the mightiest Military Defensive Force in the Middle East Region, the Ezekiel reference does not allude to that fact for these reasons.

    1) The Dry Bones reference in (Ezek 37:1-11) is a reference to the “Whole House of Israel”, not the present State of Israel. It is not as Salus suggests a vision of 1947 and the beginning of the State of Israel.
    2) The chapter relates to events that pertain to the Millennial Reign which immediately follows the return of Christ. Here is the evidence!
    a) The resurrection of the dead takes place, including all Jews who died in faith.
    b) Their graves (sepultures) will be opened. (Eze 37:12-13) These graves are not
    as Mr. Salus suggests: A reference to a “grave like situation”.
    c) God will put His Spirit in them (they will be born again believers), (Eze 37:14) a spiritual
    condition not at all what the Israelites gathered into Israel are today. Presently they are in a
    state of unbelief not rebirth.
    d) The once divided nation of Israel will become one nation (Eze 37:15-20)
    e) This gathering is certainly different than the present gathering of Israelites for they will be
    gathered into their own land (Israel) with one King (David) to be King to them. (Ezek 37:21-22, 24-
    25) David will be raised from the dead with the “Whole House of Israel” (Ezek 34:23, Jer 30:9, Hos
    3:5) and God will complete His everlasting covenant with David.
    f) The Whole House of Israel will not defile themselves anymore, (Ezek 37:23) but will walk in God’s
    judgments and statutes and do them. (Ezek 37:24)
    g) The Whole House of Israel will dwell with all the children of Israel forever and
    again David will serve as their prince ruler. (Ezek 37:25)
    h) Finally, Israel will then live under an everlasting covenant of peace. (Ezek 37:26)

    Connecting the dots of Mr. Salus’ revelation regarding Ps 83; and Israel’s military victory over the 10 Arab states and terrorist groups aligned against Israel

    First, the whole context of Ps 83 speaks for itself. Mr. Salus discusses only verse 1-8. But the Psalmist continues his initial prayer from verse one when asking god not to keep quiet or still. Verses 9-17 he asked God (under the inspiration and direction of the Holy Spirit) how he wishes the Lord to reward this confederation against Israel. I believe these two requests are a revelation and will be answered by God regarding the situation. Two points in Israel’s history are pointed too:

    1) The bold military victory of Gideon’s army against the Midianites. (Judges Chap 7)
    2) And the bold military victory of Barak’s army via direction of the prophetess Deborah against
    King Jabin under his commander Sisera. (Judges chapter 4)

    Here are the connecting dots of those two military victories.
    1) In both cases Israel had been long oppressed and threatened by hostile nations.
    2) Their hostility included hatred and terrorism against the nation of Israel
    3) In both cases Israel’s leaders of the day received divine direction to take military action and
    promised supernatural assistance in their military quest.
    4) Both military exploits resulted in a rout of the enemies army.
    5) Both oppressive and aggressive opponents of Israel were arrogant in mocking Israel (so today are
    the Arab nations hostile and boarding Israel)
    6) Their arrogant attitude toward Israel ended with them being ashamed, confounded, and they
    perished. (None of the 10 Arab nations and terrorist associates of Ps 83 are noted in the
    confederation aligned with gog of magog and the attack against Israel as foretold in Ezek 38.
    7) Verse 15 says the two cited opponents of Israel were “persecuted”. (KJV) The Hebrew word actually
    means they were pursued and chased. This was the historical case in those two incidents. Thus,
    if the inspired prayer of Ps 83 is answered; Israel will overrun the 10 boarding Arab nations and
    their terrorist associates, (i.e. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and the Palestinians’) and possess
    their territories.

    Pastor Bill Vigue
    Meat of the Word Ministries
    Meatoftheword.org

  193. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Pastor Bill,

    Very good input.

    I tend to agree with your view on Ezekiel 37 and your input on the rest of Palm 83 is very good.

    So when would you think this Psalm 83 prayer is fulfilled and do you see a greatly expanded Israel after it is fulfilled? How do you think they hold on to so much territory and live securely before the Gog Magog war?

  194. Consider Mr. Salus’ comments on Ezek 37:10 and his thoughts about the phrase “exceedingly great army”. I noted that he did not take into account the whole context. He didn’t even consider the other elements in the single verse. First, Ezekiel prophesied, then breath came into them (the whole house of Israel) they lived and they stood on their feet. It does not say they became military soldiers nor an army trained for war.

    Regarding the Hebrew word “army” Mr. Salus makes this fair point. “Some of today’s expositors teach that Ezekiel 37:10 alludes to a “multitude” rather than an army. However, there are some important interpretive details to consider when deciphering Ezekiel 37:10. The Hebrew word Ezekiel uses in verse 10 for army is, “chayil” and it is used 12 times elsewhere by Ezekiel and over 225 times throughout the Old Testament. All of Ezekiel’s usages and many Old Testament renderings clearly depict it as either an army or riches acquired via the spoils obtained in the aftermath of a war. Nowhere else in the book of Ezekiel can it possibly be translated as a multitude. This establishes precedent that an army rather than a multitude is being described by Ezekiel.

    Regarding the two frequently Hebrew words translated for army The Complete WordStudy Dictionary gives this difference between the meaning of chayil” and the meaning of “saba. “Ch?ayil: is a noun meaning strength, wealth, army. This word has the basic idea of strength and influence. Sa?b?a?’: is a noun meaning service, servants. It may apply to military service, hard, difficult service, or divine service.”

    Considering that the end of the Armageddon Campaign is initially the result of Israel’s acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah, then Christ’s return is a majestic military victory. It particularly is a victory for the remnant of Israel. Christ, our High Priest will win this bloody affair “alone”. (Is 63:1-5) The spoils of that war will exceed all spoils of war. The benefactors are all those who are in Christ, and especially the “the whole house of Israel” which will come up out of their graves in the resurrection.

    It is my opinion that the scenario of the “exceeding great army” (chayil) fits best with the understanding that it involves “the whole house of Israel”. At the return of Christ all Israelites who had faith in the coming Messiah are raised from the dead and gathered from “the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN (not earth) to the other”. (Matt 24:31) They will return with Jesus to reign with Him on the earth during the Millennium. The “nation Israel” (the whole house of Israel – not a military army of soldiers) finally enters into the fullness of God’s promises to them. In the Millennium Israel will be great in strength and influence during that Reign under their resurrected King David. There will be no need for a military defense.

  195. RE: So when would you think this Psalm 83 prayer is fulfilled and do you see a greatly expanded Israel after it is fulfilled?… I see you do see an expansion. I overlooked that in your last comment but do you think it will be as great an expansion as Bill Salus thinks and if so how do you think they hold on to so much territory and live securely before the Gog Magog war?

    I’m glad you mentioned the part about the prayer in Ps 83 Don. I think it was divinely inspired and God wants us to know it will be fulfilled. As to the expansion? I have never considered that until reading Bill Salus’ book “Isralestine”. I think Bill has probably hit the nail on the head with enough clarity and insight that I will now favorably point it out as something to expect in the coming days.

    As to Israel holding on to so much territory and live securely? I can only speculate. Possibly someone will find new clues in the scriptures on this point.

    My suggestion is this: Like the military victories of 1967 & 1973 (and Israel’s repossession of a part of Jerusalem) for a short season the world will accept Israel’s sudden expansion because it would be the Arab nations own fault for their agression against Israel.

    Then the developments of Eze 38 would soon come into play. A new confederation (possibly under the control of Vadimir Putin as “gog”: Which I have been speaking about) will come against Israel to take their spoils. I think Dr. Fruchtenbaum has presented a notable case that the “Young Loins” (offspring of England: The USA, Canada, Austraila and New Zeeland; will merely put up a mild protest. That does seem to be the political sentiment leaders like Obama, Ron Paul etc…) Then when gog’s army advances with devesting war, as they finally reach the Mountian peeks of Israel (Jerusalem the pinicle) to finish them off, God will sovereignly destroy that Army with supernatural intervention.

  196. Pastor Bill

    I see it pretty much as you describe in your last paragraph, but with the added thought: The power of the US must be depleted at that point, and the young lions – EU or similar are not militarily capable of taking Russia on and therefore the diffidence in their protest.

    Europe’s future world standing will come as a result of Gog’s destruction.

    China crosses the horizon during the seven year trib, therefore the ‘EU’ is the only standing ‘power’ in the area – albeit relatively weak. This military weakness may be one reason Anti Christ makes a treaty with Israel, until his power (and his ego) is strengthened.

  197. Hi Brian,

    The question of a depleted US power is interesting. I agree with you, but how does it get depleted? Is the US power weakened by it’s own military conflict in which we lose. Or is it depleted by a political will, or lack thereof, to weaken our military. I fear them both but believe the latter.

    As to the EU? I’m not sure it’s a question of military incapability, although you might be correct. I suggest it might be an incapable will to stop them. Remember, after that engagement (Eze 38-39) the anti-christ will soon rise to power with an unholy political will and militant base. So military might shall be on the earth, I would assume.

    China is an important element. Thanks for keeping us in remembrance that they are also noted in prophecy.

  198. Hi Bill

    A big stick is only as effective as the will to use it. You could be right re the EU military capability. Don would have a better idea of their hardware but either way they certainly don’t engage Gog.

  199. Hi Brian,

    Boy there is a lot going on in the news regarding Iran and that region. For those interested there is a great web site I believe is called “Debka” report. I’ve found that it often reports Middle East events several days before we hear it in the media over here.

    By the way, how do we get to see your face in your posts? I like that.

  200. Pastor Bill

    I’m no expert on the web so with me its a bit of trial and error. But the whole business is called GRAVATAR
    Try http://en.gravatar.com/emails/ and see where it takes you
    Someone else may be more helpful.

  201. Hey Brian,

    Thanks for the link, I’ll check it out.

    The one I refer to is actually: DEBKAfile.com

    It’s an international Newsletter from Israel. It generally reports events in the region before our media does, sometimes a week in advance. This weeks stories include:
    * Iran plans one – kiloton Underground Nucular test 2012
    * Iran seeks limited clash with America
    * Russian, French warships off coast of Syria, Iran, US Drone over Iran Coast
    * Iran crosses another Nucular Red Line

    The stories are accurate and informative.

  202. JacobNo Gravatar says:

    Am I the only one who has several issues with each Prophecy I hear from self-proclaimed Prophecy Experts. I think it wonderful that individuals are looking into prophecies but become a bit concerned when they claim divine insight from God that no one else seems to have. I have serious issues with several popular Prophecy claims.

    1. I agree that the Magog war will not be next. Israel does not live in safety. In addition, God declares that when he defeats Magog’s armies, that… the House of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. Ezekiel 39:22. How then will Israel decide to make a covenant with the Anti Christ? If the house of Israel is defended by God, and from that day forward, knows that they are His, why would they turn to the central figure against God? What… will they now know they are God’s and so, God then allows the Anti Christ, to come and massacre two thirds of them in Jerusalem. Each time I hear an explanation for this, the wisdom spoken appears more man’s guess work, than God’s answer.

    2. With the Psalm 83 predictions now popular, I believe there is very good credibility to a war as stated. But doubt Israel taking over countries named in Psalms 83. Defeating them yes. Annihilating Damascus, yes. But taking them over, I do not believe so. Ezekiel suggests that certain countries, named both in Ezekiel as avoiding the Magog Invasion, and in Psalms 83 as in a war with Israel, are countries in their own right, not a part of an expanded Israeli Nation. Ezekiel does not state that these areas, previously independent countries, are now owned and dominated by Israel. The scripture clearly names them as countries escaping the Magog forces. Israeli’s must flee Israel. These countries hold their own by divine providence.

    3. The Magog war does not state that it is a war of religion. It clearly claims to be an economic war for goods. So a Muslim Confederation led by or backed by Russia, as the Magog war, to destroy Israel, to me, appears false.

    If I were to fathom a guess, I would venture to say that A. The Psalm 83 will involve all the countries stated within the Psalms 83, because scripture is accurate. I believe this could be the next war. In addition, because this Psalm underlines Iran’s President’s own words, that Israel must be wiped off the map, that it is Iran, who will be the strong arm that will aid these countries in their attack. This will be an Islamic invasion. Israel will suffer heavy losses, but God will allow them courage and fighting power that overcomes their adversaries. They will devastate the Islamic armies. When the war is over, Islam will suffer immensely and fall as a dynamic power. Claiming divine inspiration from Allah, the world will watch as Allah becomes nothing more than another dark blot in history. It is then, with Islam defeated, and discredited, that Israel will be able to reclaim the Temple Mount (No Islamic power will be around to stop them.) They will then rebuild the third Temple, and their immediate neighbors, who’s land, for the most part, Israel does not claim, except for Gaza and the West Bank and possibly a few additions along their border with Syria, will join in a partnership with Israel. After Damascus is destroyed, Israel’s neighbors will want Israel as an ally not an enemy.

    What about the Magog War? Good question that I cannot answer. But the Islamic defeat by Israel will pave the way for the rise of the European Power Machine and the Anti Christ, who could then temper their voices against Israel, based on Israels defeat over Islam and Israeli power in the region, and make a treaty with Israel, and the rest,,, as we say, is History; The Anti Christ, The Magog war, etc..

  203. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob,

    Welcome to the blog.

    Those on this Blog are not making prophecies they are giving their views or interpretations of Bible prophecy. That said, Bible prophecy experts just know more than most about Bible prophecy. Their views can be about as reliable as economic experts or political experts :lol:. I think all called experts should continue to be students, nobody has it all correct but we also should realize that God did give teachers in the Church to help explain the scriptures.

    I would have issues with anyone claiming divine insight or direct revelation.

    1. Is a good point. The timing of Ezekiel 38-39 is certainly not settled. If one believes the Ezekiel 38 war is before the tribulation. They will usually just say that Israel will know YHWH again but they still will not have accepted the Messiah. It is difficult because no matter where you put this Gog Magog war you run into the sort of problems like you point out on the pre-trib view. I think there is something about this war that we simply are not getting yet and that is why nobody can agree. We need to look at the other bible prophecies more to explain the timing of this war. It would make for a good book for somebody with time to do the study.

    2. It is difficult to believe that there will be a greatly expanded Israel before the 490 years of transgression for Israel are complete. I suggest the revived Roman Empire will control the whole area like it did when Jesus walked the earth and that is why there can be peace and later a covenant with the Prince of this empire.

    3. I agree, the war seems to be to take a spoil. Perhaps there will be a great famine on earth. If this war is late in the tribulation or even at the fourth rider it is obvious that this would be the case. I kind of think that Islam will be incorporated into the Roman harlot. Possibly Queen of Heaven Marian deceptions could play a major role in bringing together the world wide Harlot and establishing and providing the security for an international religious center on the Temple mound. That is what the Pope wants to do now.

    I think just about all Arabs and Islamists are saying that Israel must be wiped out. I just do not see Iran listed in Palm 83. If Iran is the strong arm of the nations that come against Israel like you think, then she ought to be mentioned. Iran is mentioned in the later Ezekiel war. So it seems that Iran will be taken out of the picture for awhile. In fact, I do not see how that cannot happen. That could happen by several means. A western bombing of their military assets, an internal revolution and a more reasonable government in Iran, a Shiite Sunni war, or the Muslim brotherhood just could make it clear to Iran they will not take part in this Arab war against Israel. It could even be a combination of the above.

    Thanks for your input.

  204. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob,

    With respect to your item #2:

    “2. With the Psalm 83 predictions now popular, I believe there is very good credibility to a war as stated. But doubt Israel taking over countries named in Psalms 83. Defeating them yes. Annihilating Damascus, yes. But taking them over, I do not believe so. Ezekiel suggests that certain countries, named both in Ezekiel as avoiding the Magog Invasion, and in Psalms 83 as in a war with Israel, are countries in their own right, not a part of an expanded Israeli Nation. Ezekiel does not state that these areas, previously independent countries, are now owned and dominated by Israel.”

    How would you interpret Ezekiel 39:11-16 where the valley of the passengers east of the Dead Sea that is presently located in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan but is declared by the Lord’s word to Ezekiel as “there in Israel”? Does this passage not imply a territorially expanded Israel from what we know today? Thanks in advance for your response. – Sean

  205. JacobNo Gravatar says:

    Please remember that I do not claim to be a prophecy expert. That way, people know that anything I state should be questioned under the light of scripture. That being said, even though I do not believe that Israel will fully take over other countries, I do believe the area you mentioned will be in Israeli hands. I am thinking the war will begin in the North, Hezbollah and Syria firing on Israel. Other countries that surround Israel will not want to be left out.

    I believe Israel will suffer much damage in the north but will respond by annihilating Damascus, and invading the lands east of the Mediterranean north to the river Arnon, up to Aroer and annex a large part of that area. They will take over the west bank and Gaza.

    Their win will so devastate the Arab countries, that the mighty surge of Islam will be stopped dead in it’s track. They will not be able to claim Allah’s will to destroy Israel when they themselves are destroyed. At this point, I believe Israel will have the green light to build it’s third temple. Islam will no longer be the imminent threat to global security. Another threat or a combination of threats will rise, but not Islam itself as the beast. I do not hold to an Islamic Anti Christ. Too many passages seem to say otherwise.

    For an interesting parallel of this area in the middle east and a war with these peoples read Judges Chapter 10 and 11. How each particular country comes out of this war and what their exact boundaries will be, I do not know. But I do know if the bible says it, it will be so. Again, remember, I am not a prophecy expert nor a bible scholar. So, it is probable I am wrong in many areas. There’s not enough room for me to state everything here, and I constantly question my own thoughts within this area, and am always willing to correct myself when I learn more.

    So in answer to your question, Yes, I believe Israel will expand their land through a middle east war. Just not to the conquering of all the countries others believe. I still believe the countries mentioned, are not mentioned as The Land of Israel, but countries or lands in their own right in other scriptures that talk of the Gog and Magog wars and the Anti Christ attacking Jerusalem. Thus, I believe they will remain countries, although I do not know what their actual boundaries will be after the next war. And let me add, any insight you or another can share with me is deeply appreciated. I am still a learner in the first degree. May God bless you.

  206. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks for your response Jacob.

    I also do not believe there is any such thing as a human prophecy expert. However, if the Word of God clearly declares that something will be so, I unquestioningly believe it will be so.

    Therefore, it is my belief that Israel will be greater territorially as a direct result of the coming Pre-Tribulation wars. It is my belief that this greater Israel will territorially resemble the land as Moses divided it among the Tribes of Israel and David and Solomons kingdoms expanded upon it. There are many maps which illustrate the boundaries thereof.

    We’ve already seen how most of west central Jordan and all lands held by the “Palestinians” will become sovereign Israeli territory, but there is more.

    An unfulfilled directive from the Lord (to Joshua) to occupy all the land from a branch of the Nile River (Shiychowr, Shihor)in Egypt northward to include the whole of Lebanon and northern Syria is found in Joshua 13.

    Isaiah 17:2 also points to all of northwestern Jordan (the cities of Aroer) and Isaiah 17:3 to the whole of Aram (the remnant of Syria) becoming “as the glory of the children of Israel.”

    This, I believe will be the Israel that lives in peace and safety and with plenty that Gog of Magog will come against for plunder and spoil with his confederate armies named by Ezekiel. Then, after the defeat of Gog and his confederate armies will Israel meet the same conditions as Solomon found in 1 Kings 5, and Israel will rebuild the Temple, the same temple that the Roman Antichrist and his False Prophet will place the Abomination during the middle of the 70th Week.

    Sean

  207. JacobNo Gravatar says:

    I understand your timeline, but I still do not see how western Jordan will become part of Israel. Unless I am wrong, and please correct me if I am, the peoples of Edom and Moab and Ammon are considered to be in the Western Part of Jordan. If that is so, (and I do say if) Then scripture states that when the Anti Christ finally attacks Israel, they will escape from his hand. If they are around, described as a people, not a part of Israel, during the Anti Christ, then how could they be captured by Israel prior to a Gog Magog war before the Anti Christ?

    Also, even though I know my position is not popular, I still have serious reservations about everyone’s timing regarding the Gog Magog war. I find it odd that Daniel, who so precisely and expressively wrote of all the conflicts leading up to the anti Christ, the wars of the kings of the north and south, and yet did not mention the horrific encounter of Gog and Magog. It seems out of character for God to give a complete revelation of future wars up til the end and NOT mention one of the most devastating wars awaiting fulfillment. I am not saying it will not happen before the Anti Christ, I am merely saying there are too many questions not answered for me with regards to this war. That is one of them. I often wonder if the concept is so popular that everyone merely sweeps away the inconsistencies of their prediction of the Gog Magog war and what God declares will be the end result, or if it is just that I don’t get it yet. I am more prone to believe that it is me, however, until the issues I have are satisfied by scripture, I stay in wonder. For I know no matter what I am blessed to understand or not, that in the end God wins, and Jesus reigns. He is my hope, and so even though I continue to wonder at the specifics, it is great to know where I will end up and in whose victory I believe in. Thank you so much for your patience with me and in helping me to understand your thoughts. May you be ever blessed in Him.

  208. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob,

    Again, thanks for your earnest response. Regarding western Jordan, you just agreed in a previous blog entry “I do believe the area you mentioned will be in Israeli hands.”

    Also, the timeline is strongly implied by the text of these Scriptures. For example, following the Battle of Gog/Magog how can the “house of Israel” (Ezekiel 39:12-16) occupy itself without a care for 7 months in former Jordanian territory burying the “multitude of Gog” near the present-day town of Dhiban (population 15,000) if they are besieged by the Antichrist? I also think it highly likely that in that day Dhiban will be renamed Hamonah as declared by God in Ezekiel 39:16.

    I think it is very clear that this time, at the minimum, is either (a) prior to the 70th Week or (b) within the first 42 months while the “covenant among many” is in effect. This time is clearly stated by the Lord to be “in the latter years” which is clearly prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

    This is also besides the point that Israel will burn the Gog/Magog confederation’s weapons for 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9). Can these 7 years occur during the second half of the 70th Week which is only 42 months in duration? The obvious answer is that God did not give this prophecy to Ezekiel in any symbolic sense… it is literal prophecy to be understood literally. Therefore the amounts of time spoken of are literal as well.

    The formerly Jordanian land is the same land into which the Israel will flee during the second half of the 70th Week, and where they will be protected by God Himself from Antichrist and his forces. Israel does not get hidden in Jordan, Israel will be hidden in Israel proper under God’s protection at that time.

    Ezekiel 38/39 is a literal, prophetic description of a single battle and its aftermath. This is not a war, but an attempted invasion that is thwarted upon arrival on what God declares are “the mountains of Israel” three times in chapters 38 and 39.

    The end result and purpose of this battle is as declared in Ezekiel 39:22 — “So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward.” Israel will be worshiping YHWH full tilt in their newly rebuilt Temple on Mount Moriah following this battle. However, Israel’s failure (except for the 144,000) shortly thereafter will be in receiving a man, “one who comes in his own name” (John 5:43). Many in Israel will think this man to be Moshiach ben David, but he will be the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b (“the prince who is to come”) and Daniel 9:27.

    Blessings to you and yours,
    Sean

  209. JacobNo Gravatar says:

    You are correct, I did earlier state that western Jordan would be in Israeli hands, however, I also stated the area I believed Israel would control, which is the specific area north to the Arnon river and south to Jabbok. Exactly how far west Israel controls I do not know. But you seem more intent to argue your thoughts then present any answersx to any of my questions. Just as others do, you simply ignore anything that could possible alter your own interpetation. That is why I do not normally blog. People are more interested in the argument than in understanding.

    You failed to share any thoughts on why the people of Edom, Moab and the children of Ammon.

    In addition, you did not even touch on my question about the consistency and accuracy of Daniel’s prophecy regarding a thorough study of the battles up until the time of the Anti Christ, and why, if God revealed so many details of the battles leading up until the Anti Christ, he would then leave out the battle of Gog and Magog. Did He forget?

    Ezekiel also states, So will I make my Holy Name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more.

    So does God mean He will not let them pollute His holy name anymore except when the Anti Christ hits town, then they can pollute it for a little more. But just a little.

    All you did in your response is argue the same old lines of every other Gog Magog promoter, without answering or resolving any question I posed. And, as I stated, you did. For you simply ignored my questions without answering any of them and only repeated your story line. I am not sure whether or not you are trying to convince me or yourself, but I do not really care. I am not interested in a blog type argument. That is why I normally refrain from blogging. I had serious questions that you have chosen not to address, as you prefer to tote your own line. So, power to you. My questions remain but it is obvious this will not be the proper place where anyone cares to address them. As you chose not to address any question I asked, why would I care to waist my time asking others? I know that God only holds the truth and knows no-matter how much man pretends to. May the peace of Christ be yours.

  210. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob,

    Those answers you seek have already been provided long ago in the blogs above and in the links provided regarding Bill Salus’ book Isralestine. I assumed you read all of that information previously and disagreed with it. Be that as it may, my effort above was to reinforce those points. The key point here is that Asaph the psalmist was quite clear what happens to the nations and the leaders of those people – not much if anything is left of them after the Psalm 83 war. It seems to me that from your out-of-hand rejection of all the eschatological points made throughout this discussion that you refuse to consider them in a Berean manner, as is your prerogative.

    Blessings,
    Sean

  211. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob, Sean,

    I was finding your discussions very informative. Jacob, I think your main issue that was not answered is why did Daniel not mention the Gog Magog army destruction if it occurs prior to the Antichrist?

    I agree that question really needs to be answered if there is an answer? If you read Daniel 11, (which I admit is rather confusing to me) I cannot see any Gog Magog army before the Antichrist, unless there is some duel fulfillment in the details.

    Anyone is welcomed to solve this mystery for us if they can. Like I said before, no matter where I place the Gog Magog invasion I run into certain arguments that cannot be adequately resolved with what we now know (at least in my opinion). I think that is why even the best Bible prophecy teachers are all over the board on the timing of this invasion. I appreciate your input.

  212. Don, (Jacob, Sean)

    “I think your main issue that was not answered is why did Daniel not mention the Gog Magog army destruction if it occurs prior to the Antichrist?”

    From my understanding, if Daniel alludes to the Gog invasion at all it must be as the King of the North in Daniel 11:40 and that places this particular invasion around the time of the pollution of the sanctuary, the beginning of the Great Tribulation – the last three and a half years (Daniel 11:31). The major problem with this is the fact that Israel is not at peace during these years, a seeming prerequisite for the Gog invasion.

    As you say Don there are problems with every scenario, but is it necessary for Daniel to have ‘seen’ every action? Could we not also ask why Ezekiel doesn’t mention the Anti Christ? He mentions Gog of the northern parts and on to the Temple and millennium.

    It is God’s revelation, not Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s, therefore a prophetic timeline is almost certainly gained from an overall view of Scripture.

    A prophetic ‘expert’ would be a long time student of the word who majors on prophecy future.

  213. If the Daniel 11:40 invasion preceded the pollution of the sanctuary one could argue that Israel was at peace due to their treaty with Anti Christ, but it would appear that this invasion follows the pollution.

  214. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Brian From Oz,

    I like that point…

    “is it necessary for Daniel to have ‘seen’ every action?”

    I think for some reason, we (me too) search for an all inclusive answer from one entity…and perhaps it’s not the way The Lord wanted us to see or view it.

    Of course, I’m doing nothing but stating the obvious by saying that.

  215. DonNo Gravatar says:

    ~David,

    It just does not make sense that the Gog Magog invasion would be missing from Daniel chapter 11. After all that invasion marks the time that God is going to be made known to Israel and the nations through the destruction of these armies.

  216. Don,

    I have reservations with that point. There are many scriptures where God says much the same thing yet there was no behavioural change, no acknowledgement of him. In Revelation 6:15-17 the ungodly recognise God’s judgements yet there is no repentance.

    Psalm 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth…
    Exodus 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
    1Samuel 17:46 This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee… that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

    It seems to me that God is saying men will know it is God who judges, but will not necessarily acknowledge him.

  217. Continuing from previous:

    Going back up to Jacob’s comment “Ezekiel also states, So will I make my Holy Name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more”.

    We know that God is going to purge evil from Israel (two thirds will die). We also know that not all Israel are Israel, so we can assume there are many Jews who will continue to pollute his Holy Name but a third will not. The destruction of Gog will bring about the knowledge of God IN THE MIDST of Israel but not in all of Israel.

    As you can see I am offering arguments for a pre-trib view of Gog’s invasion.

    I am not looking forward to being shot down but…

  218. Phil Mayo says:

    Daniel 11 is a real challenge. Its not difficult to see its fulfilment in ancient history, but exactly what it foreshadows in the last days is not so clear.

    11:39 seems to be the point at which we stop seeing the Antichrist as the king of the North. I think this connects with the time Antiochus III was defeated by Rome, and thereafter the Seleucid Empire was its subordinate. This is why we see the Antiochus IV Epiphanes horn grow out of the Roman beast in chapter 7.

    11.40 – The king of the South now pushes at him. ‘Him’ is now Rome (both at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and today). The king of the North may now be the Northern forces and its allies, spoken of in Ezekiel’s prophecy.

  219. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Ezekiel is the only prophet recorded in the Holy Bible to which God directly revealed the details about “Gog,of the land of Magog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy concerning him.”

    None of the other prophets – Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel or Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi wrote so much as a single prophetic word about Gog of Magog. Zippo, Nada, None. The fact that the angel Gabriel said nothing to Daniel about Gog of Magog speaks volumes in my opion. I would say the purpose of the Lord is inherent in this blatant omission.

    When the angel Gabiel told Daniel (Ch. 11) about the kings of the south and north, that particular prophecy was fulfilled in the several wars between the Hellenic empires of Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire and which culminated in fulfilled prophecies about the precursor antichrist Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

    There is no mention of the Antichrist or of Jerusalem or any existing Temple in Ezekiel 38/39. I believe these are indicators that the attempted invasion by Gog’s confederation occur during a period of time when Israel is dwelling securely but has not rebuilt the Temple. Like a time between right now and the start of Daniel’s 70th Week and the revealing of the Antichrist with his 7-year “covenant among many.”

    Getting back to the Lord’s purpose in His prophetic word to Ezekiel, and this is a really crucial point coming up, this coming great slaughter upon the mountains of Israel is not just to bring Israel back into faithfulness to God, but also, as the Lord declares in verse 16: (NKJV – emphasis added) “And thou hast come up against My people Israel, As a cloud to cover the land, In the latter end of the days it is, And I have brought thee in against My land, IN ORDER THAT THE NATIONS MAY KNOW ME, IN MY BEING SANCTIFIED IN THEE BEFORE THEIR EYES, O Gog.

    God revealing Himself to the gentile nations through the slaughter of Gog’s entire confederation and the fire He sends on the land of Magog?

    What purpose would there be to this for all of the gentile nations if it were not prior to the Harpazo?

    And what does Ezekiel say occurs after the burial of Gog’s confederate armies?

    Israel builds the Temple.

    If these are not acute timing indicators, then its about time that I hang up my eschatology hat and head out to the golf course until the Father sends His Son.

    Blessings to all,
    Sean

  220. Phil Mayo says:

    Sean.

    I agree with you that the prophecy concerning the Seleucids and Ptolemaic dynasty wars were fulfilled. But as you agree that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a foreshadow of the future Antichrist. Don’t you think those wars may also be a foreshadow of what would set the stage for that future Antichrist’s reign?

    I personally think the current situation in the Middle East compares fairly well to the situation as it was during the reign of Antiochus III. We see the northern alliance of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran in opposition to the Southern alliance of the Muslim Brotherhood countries. And we see today’s Roman Empire intervening in the affairs of the Northern kingdom, whilst making alliances with the South. And also poking its nose in Israel’s affairs.

    Daniel 11:40-41 “And at the time of the end shall the king of the South push at him: and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships: and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land…”

    If this king of the North is not who Ezekiel is speaking of, who is he?

  221. DonNo Gravatar says:

    What I am seeing here, and I have seeing this problem for the 35 years that I have been studying Bible prophecy, is that anytime you get into a discussion about the timing of Ezekiel 38-39 there are good arguments why people have the views they have but there is a great deal of disagreement between even the best Bible prophecy students.

    Sean like usual made some good points. But Sean argues that the Temple will be built after the Gog invasion and cites later chapters of Ezekiel as proof of that. However,I would argue that you can’t make the millennial Temple in Ezekiel 40-48 the same Temple on the mount in Jerusalem that the Antichrist defiles because it is too big. In other words, the building of the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48 probably cannot be used as support for the Gog invasion being prior to the 70th week because there is likely to be a third Temple before the millennial Temple. On the other hand, there is Jack Kelly’s theory that the third temple that the Antichrist defiles is actually also the millennial Temple and it is built north of Jerusalem and not on the Temple mount.

    If I am reading Brian correctly he has the Gog invasion after the pollution of the sanctuary so the Temple or the sanctuary must already be built. And Brian, you said that you have reservations with my point but what you said does not seem to address my point at all so you confused me there? My point was that it clearly says in Ezekiel that God would become known to the nations through the defeat of this army.

    Phil and Brian and probably Jacob seen to have this invasion at Daniel 11:40 but Sean says the Gog invasion is not mentioned in Daniel or the other prophets at all.

    I tend to think this invasion is before the 70th week of Daniel myself for some of the reasons that Sean and Brian express and other reasons as well, but there certainly are still problems with the pre 70th week position.

    Sean, one of the great problems with saying that the Ezekiel war is not mentioned by the other prophets is that the book of Ezekiel actually says that it is mentioned by the other prophets.

    “Ez 38;17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?”

    If this war is the same as Daniel 11:40 than we probably have a problem putting it before the 70th week.

  222. Phil Mayo says:

    Don.

    Would you let us know what those problems in putting a Daniel 11:40 war before the 70th week are?

  223. JacobNo Gravatar says:

    I find Phil Mayo’s comment interesting and refreshing, to at least take a look at possibilities. Also, I am grateful to everyone who has added herein, to help me understand. As I stated, I am a novice. I also agree with Don in that regardless of how prophecy is related throughout the scriptures, Daniel seems to be given a clear outline of wars involving the king of the north and south up until the final war of the anti Christ. So this is a different system used here. As God Himself declares, For I am God, and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying my council shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. In Daniel, it appears that is God’s point of revelation, to organize the series of wars to come and reveal them to Daniel. This is not the case in many other prophecies that reveal certain aspects of various wars or judgments. This is unique.

    Now, even though I am a beginner, Two points that I would like to share are,

    1. Sean Osborne states that nowhere else in scripture are Gog and Magog stated. If I quoted him wrong, I am very sorry and apologize ahead of time. As we all agree that the word of God is true, I would share to other verses. One, Gog and Magog are talked about in Revelation. Is this the war we are all talking of? Of course not, I understand the difference, but the wording of the scripture is what I find interesting. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive THE NATIONS WHICH ARE IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH, GOG AND MAGOG, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    These verses seem to state that the Nations of the world are Gog and Magog. If not, please excuse my naivete.

    In addition, Ezekiel states, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days MANY YEARS, THAT I WOULD BRING THEE AGAINST THEM?

    T

  224. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Phil,

    I suppose if you think Daniel is talking about Gog there is no problem but if you think he is talking about the Antichrist like most believe, there is a problem because there is no peace.

  225. JacobNo Gravatar says:

    I accidentally hit the submit button before I was finished. Yea, I am not very good at typing either. However, I was going to add that after Ezekiel clearly states that God’s prophets have, for many years, prophesied about this very war. Immediately after this statement, Ezekiel goes on to talk of a horrendous earthquake that shakes everything from the fish of the sea to beasts of the field and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence.

    We then jump to Revelation, the sixth seal. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood…And the Kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains…..

    So first, can we really say that the Gog Magog war is NOT prophesied in other scripture, nor mentioned anywhere else in the word of God. Since His word declares his own prophets have prophesied about Gog Magog for many years. What, the prophets of God prophesied from God on this war for years and years, but wrote nothing down? Perhaps this war is written about in a number of places without the words of Gog and Magog. This may be a point someone wiser than I could look into. Perhaps hidden in the psalms or other scripture or book are indicators of this war and a time-line.

    Also, why would God, who declares the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, things not yet done, reveal the final end in Revelations and not mention anything at all about this particular war of Gog Magog, or did He? And, since at the end of Revelations God has John prophesied that Satan will..go out and deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together. To my eye, it appears as if the Lord is declaring that Gog and Magog are representative of the nations of the four quarters of the earth. Do I have this wrong? Probably, but I still ask. If, all these questions have previously been discussed then my deepest apologies for revisiting them. I once accepted via my reading of others books, the popular mainstream Christian approach to the Gog Magog timeline. That is what caused me to begin comparing scripture. And the more I compare scripture, the more doubts were raised within me regarding the correct sequence as outlined by others. No, I have no idea of what the sequence will be. None, at all. However, I am ever searching. May God bless each of you, especially for your kindness and patience in dealing with subject matter you have all probably completely hashed out. I truly am grateful. My special apologies to Sean, for I am certainly not attempting to undercut your thoughts. I am only attempting to develop my own, as I seek His Truth. For unquestionably we are living in the most exciting times in the history of the world. I am in absolute awe at a God who shares with us what is coming, and openly declares it, so that we may watch it unfold. It just never ceases to amaze me. May He bless each of you.

  226. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Phil,

    Yes, I am of the opinion the major pre-70th Week wars and military actions (Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49:34-39, Psalm 83, Joshua 13:1-7, Ezekiel 38/39, et al) are foreshadows and condition setters for the emergence of the Antichrist. I believe his confirming of a “covenant among many” is a direct result of these horrific WMD wars upon humanity in that it will essentially be an international peace and security pact. The Macedonian-Greek ethnicity of Antiochus IV Epiphanes is key to understanding the Euro/Mediterranean origin of the coming Antichrist as made crystal clear by Daniel 9:26b.

    Daniel 11:29-43 I view as a dual prophecy regarding what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did and the future exploits of Antichrist will be (i.e. the “him’ and “he” in these verses are Antichrist). He will wage wars of conquest, particularly during the final 42 months of the 70th Week. The kings of the south and north are nations located in those general directions respective to Israel’s geographic location. Verse 41 was true of Antiochus IV Epiphanes – he did not conquer the regions of Edom, Moab or Ammon, they were under Ptolemaic Control, whereas Revelation 13:7b says “And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.” That can’t be true if Edom, Moab and Ammon “escape from his hand.” I believe in this we see the subtle differences between the precursor and the real Antichrist.

    Don,

    In my citation of Ezekiel’s temple vision occurring after the battle of God/Magog I forgot to also reference Ezekiel 37:21-28. In these I see no reference to multiple temples, just “I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore,” and also “My tabernacle also shall be with them…”

    Ezekiel 38:17 is to the prophecies spoken by God to prophets prior well prior to Ezekiel. The Hebrew text reads “qadmowniy yowm” or ancient days. Who were the Lord’s ancient prophets prior to Ezekiel? Ezekiel was born circa 622 BC, Ezekiel 1:1-2 provides this date (Ezekiel was 30 years old on the fith year of King Jehoiachin’s exile, 597 BC), so those prophets had to be very early in Israel’s existence. This iis why I phrased my first sentence as I did: “Ezekiel is the only prophet recorded in the Holy Bible to which God directly revealed the details about “Gog,of the land of Magog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy concerning him.” “Recorded in the Holy Bible” being the keys words of that sentence.

  227. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob wrote: “Sean Osborne states that nowhere else in scripture are Gog and Magog stated.”

    Again, what I actually wrote was:

    “Ezekiel is the only prophet recorded in the Holy Bible to which God directly revealed the details about “Gog, of the land of Magog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy concerning him.”

    This means that I and referring to the same context as God gave the prophecy about Gog OF Magog to Ezekiel. The man Gog being the “him” God id directly referring to throughout the prophecy. No other prophet of israel recorded within the entire text of the Holy Bible discussed this topic at all.

    A key distinction need be made here. The Revelation 20:8 “Gog AND Magog” did not come from any of Israel’s ANCIENT PRE-EZEKIEL prophets, but “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw” which was circa 90-95 AD. Revelation 1:1-2.

  228. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Jacob wrote: “My special apologies to Sean, for I am certainly not attempting to undercut your thoughts.”

    Jacob,

    No apologies necessary brother. Like our host Don, I also have been studying Bible prophecy for a very long time, 42 years to be precise. I long ago came to expect others subject any words I put into print through a thorough Berean review.

  229. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean

    I think when God says that he will set His sanctuary among them forever in Ezekiel 37 27-28 the context demands that they are already in the millennium.

    Ez 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

    I did not even think about the fact that Daniel was after Ezekiel. Good point there.

  230. Phil Mayo says:

    Sean.

    If I am understanding your reply correctly, we are almost singing from the same hymn sheet. But I don’t understand why you think Daniel isn’t speaking of Gog in 11:40. After all if as we both agree, the ‘him’ in that verse is the Antichrist. Surely the king of the North who comes against him in that same verse must be Gog?

  231. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I agree, the Lord siad he will set his sanctuary in the midst of Israel in the context of the Millennium.

    The Temple of the 70th Week is made to human measurements and construct as Ezekiel describes from his vision. I also agree that the sheer size of Ezekiel’s temple would encompass the whole of Jerusalem, and it will in the future upon the expansion of Mount Moriah and the Mount of Olives as described by Ezekiel. None of these places will be at that time as they physically are today; they will be much larger.

    However, the temple Israel will have constructed just prior to the 70th Week will undoubtedly incorporate components of the second temple (Ezra’s temple and Herod’s reconstruction) in which elements of Ezekiel’s prophetic vison temple were most certainly included. These details are closely kept by observant Jews (like the Temple Insititue, etc).

  232. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Phil,

    We are in agreement regarding the person of the Antichrist.

    However, in my view Gog will be dead an buried in the “Valley of the Passengers” east of the Dead Sea (the Valley of Hamon Gog near present day Dhiban, Jordan) prior to the appearance of the Antichrist.

    I view the Battle of Gog/Magog as a pre-70th Week event.

  233. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Sean,

    I agree with what you just said but then going back to your previous comment you can’t use the Temple passages in Ezekiel 37 or 40 – 48 to support a pre 70th week war as you did. That was my point (Just so no one gets confused I am not suggesting that it is a tribulation war either I just don’t think that argument works).

  234. Phil Mayo says:

    Sean.

    Once again I am in total agreement with those two points you made. But I now recognise the problem.

    The Antichrist kingdom is already actively involved with Israel. Israel has already signed up to it in trade and technology sharing, and defence agreements etc. He is very much involved in the current peace negotiations. So he is already there. The fact that Gog will be dead and buried before this Antichrist-man has been revealed isn’t a problem.

    Under the agreements already in existence, and any made in the future, an attack on Israel by Gog would be seen as an attack on the Antichrist kingdom, and therefore also on the man himself. This is why I think Daniel 11:40 is worded as it is.

  235. Sean OsborneNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I was just pointing out that the next prophetic thing Ezekiel wrote after Gog/Magog is about a Temple. What I do know from Scripture is that there will be a Temple during the 70th Week; it will be a legitimate Temple of God otherwise the Abomination of Desloation would not be possible. I believe 1 Kings 5 provides the template for the construction of a Tribulation Temple – no enemies around Israel just as it was in Solomon’s day.

    Is this Temple the one Ezekiel writes about? I am not sure because in further study I see that there are indeed significant differences between Ezekiel and Revelation.

    Case in point, the Temple Ezekiel is taken to in the vision includes animals slaughtered for sacrifice and preparation of burnt offerings, and the offering to God of fat and blood. And even further on, in Ezekiel 44:27 we still see a priest who has defiled himself in some manner making a sin offering in the Temple inner court.

    In Jerusalem, in the Millennial Temple with Jesus Christ reigning as King of kings and Lord of lords, what need will there be for this?

    There is also no veil in the Holy of Holies, and the Shekinah glory of God fills this Temple. All Israel will have been saved and recognize Jesus as Messiah, the Lamb of God who shed His blood for the remission of the sins of all.

    Also, in Ezekiel 40-45 there is no mention of the saints who will reign with Christ on their own thrones serving as priests of God and Christ for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom as seen in Revelation 20:4-6.

    Obviously, I have more work to do here.

  236. Early morning here.

    “If I am reading Brian correctly he has the Gog invasion after the pollution of the sanctuary so the Temple or the sanctuary must already be built. And Brian, you said that you have reservations with my point but what you said does not seem to address my point at all so you confused me there? My point was that it clearly says in Ezekiel that God would become known to the nations through the defeat of this army.”

    Hi Don

    To clear up these two points. My comment was that IF (may be, but IMO probably not) Daniel alludes to the Gog invasion at all it must be as the King of the North in Daniel 11:40… The major problem being the fact that Israel is not at peace during these years, a seeming prerequisite for the Gog invasion. I think you agree with this.

    My reservations are on the very point you repeat – of God making himself known. It seemed from yours and Jacob’s comments that you both think Gog’s destruction will have a marked effect on the world; I was trying to show that although mankind always will know God “by the judgment which he executes” they do not necessarily change their behaviour. However my point also suggested that those who are true Israel will know and begin to acknowledge God’s intervention and will cease to profane his Holy Name, but the ungodly will not and eventually face judgement themselves.

    My point being that Gog’s invasion and destruction could be a number of years (seven?) before Christ’s actual return to the Mount of Olives.

  237. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Brian,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    I do have a problem with that 7 year figure. I do not see how Israel can flee to the mountains for the 42 months under the persecution of the Antichrist while the whole house of Israel is also burning the weapons of war for seven years.

    I like to place the Gog destruction at least 10.5 years before the second coming. So Israel stops burning the weapons because they flee from the Antichrist. If they are gathering and burning the weapons it also stands to reason that there are no wars going on in Israel. Therefore the Temple can be built and the two prophets and 144,000 message will be accepted or rejected by the world. The scriptures says the gospel of the kingdom must be preached to all the world AS A WITNESS and then the end comes. The end spoken about is the last 42 months.

  238. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Perhaps one thing that we do not put enough weight on is that during those last 42 months many of the judgments coming on the earth are going to be supernatural. They do not come about through armies of men, although armies of men and demons will obviously play their own role.

  239. Don
    I am getting old, I should have written the number (ten?), and I agree it could be more.

  240. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Last comment was removed by author’s request so the follow up comment was also not posted

  241. Yonah YitzakNo Gravatar says:

    Getting back to the Psalm 83 War, Only the L-rd knows what Israel’s actual territorial expansion will be post conflict. As for Israel taking on their full territorial mandate as stated in the scriptures will ultimately see their total fulfillment is with the return of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) and the setting up of His kingdom. However, until that day Israel’s expansion my come about in stages or phases.
    This is what I believe will happen in the relative soon in near future. Post Psalm 83 I see Israel expanding north into Lebanon perhaps up to the Latani River which was the northern border for the tribes of Asher and Naphtali circa 1200 BCE. They might even expand north to modern day Beirut as was done in the First Lebanon War in 1982 and if necessary take all of Lebanon. With the destruction of Damascus and its metro area, this area just might be too hot “radioactively” to occupy initially. Once things “cool” down a gradual expansion North Eastwards to the Euphrates is quite possible. Until then I see Israel satisfied with occupying the Bashan or the eastern allocation to the tribe of Manasseh of south west Syria. Judea and Samaria i.e. the West Bank will be under total Israeli control. As to Jordan, the western half or third will fall to Israel taking back the areas allocated to the tribes of Gad and Reuben as well as territory of Ammon, Moab and Edom down to the port of Aqaba. After perhaps the Ezekiel war, I can see Israel expanding eastwards to Euphrates.
    There have been some discussions and articles published in the past about the true location of Mt. Sinai. Traditionally located in the South Sinai Peninsula, However, there is some speculation that loosely based on Gal 4:25 that Mt. Sinai is located in the Land of Midian, Arabia or North West Saudi Arabia. There is a mountain known as Jubal Al Musa or Mountain of Moses which is considered a prime candidate. It would be interesting to know as the scriptures indicate. Is this one more reason Israel acquires this area, to have in its possession the “true” Mt. Sinai?
    Finally, Israeli expansion will cover all the Sinai and west bank of to Suez Canal on to the River of Egypt or Nile River. Especially North East Nile Delta or the Land of Goshen with the ancient city sites of Ramses, Pithom and On and perhaps Alexandria a city that was home for prominent Jewish community throughout antiquity.
    What is also interesting is when one looks at a map of the Middle East and compares it with the sojourning and travels of Abraham from Ur of the Caldees on Euphrates to Paran in North West Iraq on down the Fertile Crescent and to finally Canaan. His son’s Isaac and Jacob travels, the 10 brothers of Jacob and the sons of Joseph, the growth of the 12 tribes in Egypt, their Exodus, wanderings on to Mt. Sinai (in Arabia) and their final arrival in The Promised Land, the conquests of Joshua, through the expansion of territory under Kings David and Solomon. Post Psalm 83 War and perhaps the Ezekiel War, ALL this territory could be under Israeli/Jewish control! Imagine a tourist being able visiting ALL the holy sites pertaining to the genesis of the Jewish People in this greater Israel!
    With Israel now expanded and dwelling the “the midst of the land”, where is the Jewish population to fill this vacuum? As mentioned earlier, even if all 15 million of the world’s Jewish population was to emigrate after Psalm 83 war. It is still not enough people.
    This may be a partial answer. Over the last twenty or so years remnants of the twelve tribes have been found scattered across the globe. Based on a prophecy in Obadiah (Obadiah 1:19-21) One group of people is known as the “Anosim” Hebrew meaning the descendents of the coerced ones. This is a group of people who are descended from (Sephardim) Spanish/Portuguese Jewish population who were expelled in 1492-93 from Spain and Portugal. A portion of this group settled around the Mediterranean Sea and Western Europe. However, a majority came to the Western Hemisphere with Spanish and Portuguese explorers. They mixed and intermarried with them and the indigenous native populations. A large portion of today’s Hispanic community living in the Western Hemisphere today makes up part of this group. Only now are they beginning to rise, discover and claim the Jewish/Hebraic heritage. Some experts estimate there are perhaps 66 million “Anosim”. Obadiah may be speaking of this group as reposing the Negev. So if only half of this estimated populations were to respond and emigrate that’s 33 million. Perhaps this is another reason for Israel’s expansion after the Psalm 83 War.
    I have only touched briefly on many facets and subjects here and could possible write a thesis on each, perhaps a future assignment for me. I just wanted to bring another general prospective in viewing the possible territorial expansion of Israel primarily after the Psalm 83 War. Again, only the L-rd knows what Israel’s actual territorial expansion will be post conflict. If Messiah’s return tarries, we will all just have to pray, wait and watch as these prophecies develop.

  242. Bob HandleyNo Gravatar says:

    I found Yonah Yitzak’s comments very interesting. He was wondering how the vacuum created by Israel’s expansion could be filled with Jews. He missed one big point, and that is, I believe, that America (specifically New York City)is the Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 and 18. Rev. 18:4 should give Yonah Yitzak’s the answer. Those Jews in the US specifically those in the eastern seaboard are told: “…Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Have you ever wondered why so few Jews have left the US for Israel?? “My people” are the Jews, and so where do they go??? Israel, obviously. Anyone out there believe that the US is not the Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 and 18?

    Furthermore, Obadiah 1:18 states that the descendants of Esau will be destroyed….”…and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it.” These are the present day Palestinians in the Gaza area and southern Jordan. I’m throwing that in for any comments.

  243. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hey Bob,

    America or New York city is not mystery Babylon. If you need proof read chapter 17 and 18 of my Revelation Commentary (top bar).

    I also have news, We are not going down that rabbit trail on this post. Anything further in support or against America being Babylon will just be deleted.

  244. Yonah YitzakNo Gravatar says:

    Bob,
    I am not going to focusing on, is the US and NYC the Babylon of Revelation. I am still studying The Word on that aspect. However, as in regards to the Jewish People of New York, East Coast and all of the United States being part of this aliyah or emigration to this “greater” Israel post Psalm 83. I believe this population is part and parcel of the aforementioned 15 million Jewish people currently on the planet outside of Israel.
    Since the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 there has not been a significant emigration to Israel of the Jewish People of North America in fact the western hemisphere. What will drive this group of the Diaspora back to Israel? Here is the answer found in Jeremiah 16:15-17 (NASB)
    15 but, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.’ For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.
    16 “Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen,” declares the LORD, “and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks. 17 For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.
    With the possible quickly approaching economic collapse of the US, who is most likely is going to get the blame? The bankers and stock brokers etc… As in the past, even in the recent 20th century, history will soon repeat itself. It has been one particular group of people. Need I name them? Since 1948 it has been relatively and pardon the pun “a fishing expedition” when it comes the Jewish people of the Western Hemisphere especially North America making aliyah and returning home to Eretz Israel.
    Possibly, are the L-rd’s hunters a form of persecution of the Jewish People that will drive them out? Will America follow 1492 Spain’s policy to even drive out and perhaps even expel them including the aforementioned “Anosim?

  245. Bob HandleyNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Yonah…I believe you have a good insight to the Scriptures.

  246. Bob HandleyNo Gravatar says:

    Don:

    Are you going to be changing the subject anytime soon? Seems that all the comments have covered most of the subject, and that it is getting worn out. Why not come up with another subject such as, Is America/New York City the Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17 and 18? I’m sure that will get a lot of attention. We’re nearing the time of the Lord’s return….in fact, I think it is very very imminent. Let’s see if anyone can come up with a country/city that meets the criteria of Rev. 17 and 18. I’m sure the comments would stimulate a lot of interest. What do you say?

  247. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bob,

    I have over a thousand different posts on this Blog and all touch on different topics. This post is about the timing of the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel 38-39 wars. The comments on my post are supposed to be on the post topic. I am always coming up with different topics. In fact, I would be writing a post now if I was not replying to other comments like this one. Check the search aids on my site for other topics. I have already told you that I wrote on Rev 17 and 18 in my Revelation Commentary, but you obviously replied without even reading it. If you disagree with my teaching on Rev 17 and 18 I can’t help you.

  248. TabithaNo Gravatar says:

    I need some help. It’s been a while since you last responded, but I need to know the list of countries that are in the Bible, but are now known as different names, in Psalm 83.

  249. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Tabitha,

    Its not quite so simple as just naming countries. Bill Salus has done a lot of research on this so I will let him explain it to you.

    http://prophecydepot.blogspot.com/2009/03/psalm-83-has-it-found-final-fulfillment.html

  250. I’ll keep the answer short. Psalm 83 comes first, then the destruction of Damascus. This would be one of the key elements drawing Russia into a war with the coalition put together in Ezekiel 38 and 39. All of the minor coalition nations are “satellites” of Mother Russia, thus they cannot allow the destruction of Damascus to go unanswered. The other key element of course, is that Russia wants to control the Middle East and all the oil and gas reserves in order to be able to control all of Europe. One other element is that Russia wants a warm-water seaport in the Middle East and an invasion and victory over Israel would provide such a port. Thus comes the Gog/Magog war which will end in the defeat of Russia and its allies. This will be the final straw which will lead to the peace covenant between Israel and the other Middle East nations confirmed by the one who will be revealed later as the antichrist.

  251. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dwight,

    Nice try, but that scenario does not answer how Israel is living in peace and security with none to make them afraid like the Ezekiel prophecy indicates.

    The reason stated for coming against Israel is to take a spoil. Payback for the Psalm 83 war and the destruction of Damascus is not mentioned, and if Israel were expecting a reaction from enemies of Israel because of the Psalm 83 war, she would not be living at ease as the prophecy clearly indicates. Clearly something has made Israel feel secure.

    I am now leaning toward it being after the Roman leader’s seven year covenant with the many (the revived Roman Empire) rather than the Bill Salus pre-trib scenario. In fact, I think Israel will become part of the revived Roman Empire just as they were in the days of Jesus. They do want to join the EU nations at some point. And because Israel will be under the protection of the revived Roman Empire along with other nations around her in the Middle East and North Africa, Israel will feel secure. However, then she will be betrayed by the Beast and only then will Russia and allies see an already de-nuked Israel as easy pickings.

    Think about it. Putting all the major prophetic events dealing with Israel before the last seven years even starts, is not even prophetically logical.

  252. This seems an appropriate article to place the accompanying lead.

    http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=7719

    I found it an interesting and provoking take.

  253. Consider this — Syria is mentioned in both Psalm 83:8 Assur is most definetly ancient Syria and Ezekiel 39:18 princes of bashan are also ancient Syria and specifically Damascus .That makes it more difficult to try to place it in a time line for eschotology. Ps 83 states that the Arab confederacy wants to cut them off from being a nation — which sounds more like Iran who states they want to wipe them off the map . Ez 38:12 states to take a spoil which sounds like Russia which was recently refused an agreement to purchase oil and gas from Israel. The wars in Rev 6:4 is a world wide war and Rev 6:8 looks like a regional war unles you would interpret one fourth of the earth as either one fourth of mankind or one fourth of each geographic continent . So that introduces another equation. It all begins with Rev 6:1. The anti-christ starts conquering (present) and to couquer ( future ). Then he takes peace from the earth(war) . That has to be when the wars begin. Which war is first , is the question . It has to be the Ps 83 war because the Ez 38 and 39 war are unwalled cities at peace. Matt 24:16 states — let them that be in judea ( ancient Judah ) west of Jerusalem, flee . That area is the current major palistinian population . They are the ancient phillistines ( Goliath ) and the Arab confederation of Ps 83 . They will try to eliminate any jews but except for Holy God’s intrevention it would happen. The anti-christ could step in after this war is won by the Lord and Israel and proclaim peace. Then the Ez 38 and 39 war could happen next because of Ez 38:11 states them that are at rest and dwell safely. That would also be the Rev 9:15, world war III. The war that kills another one third of mankind.
    Rev 6 begins with the rise and domination of the anti-christ by first war , then a world wide shortage of food then the death and hell scenerio of one fourth of the earth ( mankind).
    Those scriptures tell us this could be both world wide and regional with nuclear weapnes involved , causinf the exact description detailed in Rev .

    My take on the scriptures are the rapture causes the world wide collapse of the dollar and the economy .That triggers the rise and domination of the anti-christ then seal judgements ; followed by the trumpet judgements and the vial judgements.

    Love to the Church Maranatha Come Lord Jesus Be saved Be safe V

  254. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Vance,

    I considered it. Way too much conjecture about way too many different things, almost did not post it, but I hate to see all your effort be for nothing.

  255. Don, It is difficult for me to tell where the situation in Iraq is going as regards to prophecy. Can you provide some clarifying insight?

  256. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Bob,

    Current events in Iraq are not fulfilling Bible prophecy yet. Nobody knows how the Middle East will all work out to bring about what Bible prophecy says about the last days.

Comments are closed.

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