Fourth turning suggests over two decades of world chaos.

I do not totally buy into the “fourth turning” time cycles although the four turnings spoken about in that book do seem to occur about once in a human lifespan. I as well, see a bitter winter coming to our nation and the world in the near future. I think we are about two years away from at least two decades of unparalleled world chaos.

The validity of the fourth turning cycle theory really does not matter because by our own observations we can see the rise of evil all over the world and know that it will bring us a time of war and chaos. I think people have about two years to get prepared for two decades where man once again proves what his fallen nature is capable of. I think by 2013 we in America and much of the world will be in dire straights. If you want to call that period the fourth turning than this next fourth turning will be the darkest winter of them all.

This belief is not based on Mayan or other pagan based speculations. I think those Christians believing those speculations probably will be deceived into thinking that they are waring against the Beast Antichrist (Islam), but that will not be the case. These periods when evil people run amok in the world are nothing new. However, evil people having access to weapons of mass destruction that can destroy the world are unique to this terminal generation. That is why this fourth turning winter will be like no other that the earth has seen before.

Two years to political and financial chaos:

At the rate the world is racking up debt, financial chaos is inevitable within two or three years. Some European nations have tried to make small cuts in their entitlement programs and they have already reaped riots and strikes. There simply is no way that nations are going to be able to make the necessary cuts under the rule of democracy. The majority that have become dependent on a welfare state are simply not going to allow any major cuts in their benefits. Nevertheless, their benefits are unsustainable, so chaos will come.

This is also true in the United States. If there are deep cuts in entitlements there will be riots in the streets and most of the politicians that voted for reductions will be removed from office. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that cuts in entitlements are right or wrong because nothing our politicians do is going to make a difference anyway. We are already beyond the point where just making a few cuts here and there will remove our cancerous national debt and entitlement problem.

The U.S. is currently spending about twice what it receives in revenues and the political reality is that this is not going to change much. The government cannot raise taxes or it will worsen economic conditions and tax revenues will actually fall. On the other hand, if they do not increase revenues the defects will continue to rise and those that finance our debt will demand higher interest rates. That will cripple business expansion and also make economic conditions worse. No administration elected in 2012 can solve our debt problem without cutting government and entitlements in half across the board. But, that simply is not possible without starting a civil war.

Therefore, we already know what action government will take. They will attempt to inflate the debt away and then when inflation decimates everyone’s savings they will lie to the public about their ability to get inflation under control. There is plenty of historical precedence to believe that this is what government will do.

Inflation will not help the unemployment situation either because inflation will increase interest rates and shut down business expansion. The ongoing Fed magic act where money is pulled out of a hat and dropped from helicopters insures inflation chaos in the future. There are already signs that inflation has arrived. It just for the most part has not worked its way down the food chain yet, but it will.

For the next two years absolutely nothing is going to get done by Congress other than the Democrats and the Republicans will be competing with each other to see how they can best stimulate the economy and create jobs so they can take credit for any increase in employment before the 2012 election. All this will just add to the national debt. Therefore, there will be no large deficit reductions and debt will continue to pile up at the rate of at least 1.5 trillion a year for the official federal budget and about 10 trillion a year when counting all off-book unfunded liabilities.

The Congressional Budget Office has the figures all worked out and they know that even under the best scenario (good growth and no recessions) our debt load gets to a point of no return about 2025. However, in the real world investors are not going to wait until we can no longer even pay the interest on our national debt to demand higher interest rates. They do not believe in economic fairy tail projections where there are no future business contractions, nor do they think that our dollar will have the same buying power as when they were lent. Therefore, because of the risk of default or inflation they will soon demand higher interest rates and that will halt our weak recovery and threaten another contraction.

Nevertheless, we have already been told that our Federal Reserve will not allow another contraction and to prevent a contraction they must purposely inflate. Yet, investors are not stupid. The more we inflate the more the dollar is likely to fall and that means investors will demand even higher interest rates to cover the dollar fall and the greater risk of a default. If the Fed continues inflating the dollar until the next election an inflationary depression is certain by 2013.

We are not the only nation that is stuck in a debt quagmire. Europe, Japan, South Korea and others are in the same swamp and if any go under they will take the others down with them. The world is at best about three years from complete financial chaos.

Even the 2012 election itself might turn into chaos. We very well could see three or four major candidates running for president and someone getting elected with less than 40 percent of the popular vote. It happened just prior to the civil war. Abraham Lincoln got elected with 39 percent of the popular vote. He was not even on the ballet of some major states.  A movement toward secession from the union is very possible once again if a unpopular candidate with an unpopular agenda is forced on a opposing majority. Within three years America may be under martial law and on the brink of a civil war.

Health care is going to be in chaos because Obamacare is now the law of the land but funding the provisions of the law will be another matter. The Supreme Court may very well rule it unconstitutional and then what happens to the parts that have already gone into effect? Heath care providers are going to have a very difficult time planning for the future and even surviving in such a schizophrenic environment.

The Republican House and the general population are not likely to support bailouts of liberal welfare states and local governments. Many local governments are going to default on their debts. The big losers are going to be government employees, those on state assistance, and people investing in their bonds. Criminals are going to be the big winners. There will be less local law enforcement, more plea bargaining and early releases from prisons.

Two years to world Military chaos:

Western politicians like to put their heads in the sand and pretend that the West is not at war against the Islamic system, but that simply is not the reality. Muslim radicals are calling the shots all over the Muslim world and they are mostly unopposed. Attacks will continue in Europe and European natives will become more radicalized. After hundreds or even thousands of European natives are killed, the Far Right in Europe will gain control of most of Europe and civil war against Muslim immigrants will not be an overstatement. This civil war might occur in parallel with a foreign war against whole nations that are supporting Islamic terrorists

Israel is going to have to deal with its local enemies within the next two years and it will not turn out like Israel’s enemies or the world thinks. Israel will destroy its enemies and it will occupy more land, not less. There certainly will be air strikes on Iran’s nuclear facilities within the next two or three years unless there is a popular revolution in Iran before that happens.

South America and Central America are becoming radicalized. Within three years the United States will have to intervene militarily, if it even still has the capable of doing so. If America becomes incapable of dealing with criminals and tyrants taking over Latin America, these criminals and tyrannical radicals will rule much of the hemisphere. Democracy will be dead in Latin America.

It should be clear that North Korea is now going all out to develop more nuclear weapons. Within three years the North Korean government will have to be overthrown or else South Korea and Japan will start their own nuclear weapons program. If that happens a nuclear war between North and South Korea and China and Japan becomes almost inevitable.

The U.S. will soon be forced to get out of Afghanistan and then Pakistan and Afghanistan will become terrorist protectorates that may also acquire access to Pakistan’s nuclear weapons. India will continue to suffer terrorist attacks from Pakistan and it is very likely that within a few years that India will have no choice but to take over Pakistan. It is highly possible that this Islamic threat could turn into a world war that will rage all the way from India to Europe. Nations outside of this area will also be involved. We already see new axis’ of evil forming in the world.

Russia will become increasing fascist. The financial collapse and civil war in Europe will push Eastern Europe to once again align with Russia. Toward the end of this period Russia and her allies will march against Israel and their armies will be supernaturally destroyed. China will become the foremost world superpower by the end of these two decades of world chaos. Access to oil and raw materials is already becoming a primary focus of China. By 2030 China will become a grave danger to the Western world because China’s will protect its strategic interests in the  third world and the Middle East.

A few years to another energy crises.

We could have been developing our vast energy resources. Instead, for decades we have let radicals and junk science salesmen prevent new energy development. Within three years it is very likely that energy costs will double again. We could see gas rationing. We might even see military action against oil producing nations.

The fourth turning winter seems to almost end but then the Abominable Snow Man arrives.

Two decades of world chaos seems to end when a great leader rises and snows the world with solutions. Two prophets rise in Israel and force feed the world with the unpopular truth.  After a determined period of time the Abominable Snow Man rolls the two prophets and then he extends the worst of winter until the brightness of the risen Son appears in the clouds and the Abominable Snow Man melts.

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 Don Koenig is the founder of ThePropheticYears website. He has been publishing articles on the Internet on Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and Christian worldviews since 1999. You can find well over a thousand articles and thousands of comments written by Don from the homepage of this website.


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46 thoughts on “Fourth turning suggests over two decades of world chaos.

  1. don it seems to me that israel attacked irans nuclear facilities in secret with the stuxnet virus, it is reported that thay are 2 years behind now, it is just like a military strike only done wisely with no casualties.

  2. Somebody unleashed the stuxnet virus but that makes them two years behind what capability? The projection was that Iran could have a nuclear bomb in less than a year. So even with this setback that is still likely to occur in two years. In fact, they might already have nukes since nobody knows what they are doing in secret facilities or what North Korea gave them. WE had no idea that North Korea had all the nuclear weapon facilities that they apparently have. Our Intelligence has not had a good record on knowledge of WMD since the Clinton administration.

  3. Don,

    From what I read and see going on in the world, your timing seems spot on, but I’m confused about an inflation/deflation scenario. You sound convinced that we are heading for inflation, yet there are economist who say the evidence points to a strong deflationary trend, which will resist all efforts of the Fed to halt. Another site that I read regularly is The Automatic Earth. Nicole Foss (Stoneleigh is her “web” name) comes off as sounding quite knowledgeable on the inflation/deflation probabilities. She sees deflation ahead, and a strong dollar-!, at least for the next few years. She’s just posted a very good article on the subject at:

    http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2010/12/december-15-2010-debunking-gonzalo-lira.html

    Could the velocity of money be so slow — people clinging so tenaciously to what liquidity they have — that indeed we may see years if deflation ahead?

    I’m not an economist, but for me deflation feels a lot more comfortable than inflation. The government, for obvious reasons, would feel differently.

    Doug

  4. Whether the massive world debt will bring the world into Inflation or deflation has been the big controversy for quite a while. Nobody really knows for sure because actions of others can change the outcomes. For example the Fed says they will not allow deflation but the whole world is not under their control. External forces might rule the day. High unemployment could very well lead to a trade war or currency war and if that happens nations will default. If nations give up on paying debt there would be a downward spiral into deflation.

    I don’t think it really matters if we go into a deflationary spiral or a inflationary spiral. The first leads to national default and an economic collapse and the latter leads to a worthless currency and a economy collapse. In fact, deflation and inflation are possible at the same time. Right now we have deflation in housing but energy prices,food and raw materials are rising. A likely scenario is a inflationary depression where there is a race to the bottom in manufactured goods and the wages of wage slaves, but the prices of essentials like energy and food keep going up.

    The bottom line is that the debts and entitlements will never be paid. At least not in currency worth anywhere near what they are worth today. Most savings and retirement plans will be wiped out and standards of living will decline among the poor and middle class.

  5. Even though the Fed incessantly rolls out the “deflation fear” from time to time, I can assure you our biggest problem is going to be staving off an inflationary recession/depression or stagflation. I can’t find the link right now, but according to some economists you will not find on the mainstream media, they estimate we are 24-48 months away from severe inflation. We are already beginning to see inflation in the costs of raw materials like corn, cotton, oil, etc. Oil’s rise in price is a combination of several things: The Fed printing money (inflating the money supply), investors getting rid of dollars and flocking to oil, lower supply due to environmental policies (note that there is not a shortage of actual oil in the ground, just our current ability to drill it), and increased demand in China and other “developing” countries.

    Deflation in times of recession/depression is actually a good thing for those that are unemployed. Falling prices makes like easier. Throwing around the “deflation scare” is the Fed’s way of disguising and distracting the people to what they are really doing: Devaluing the debt and devaluing Americans’ savings by buying treasuries with printed money.

  6. Thats about the way I see it now. I would just add that there is plenty of spare capacity for oil production in the world right now. OPEC is simply choosing not to pump it to keep oil prices high. Saudi Arabia alone could pump almost a third more oil than it is pumping today. If you remember quotas of OPEC members were cut severely when oil fell to about $50 a barrel. Other non OPEC nations like Russia also cut their production during the recession to raise oil prices. Since then quotas have not been raised even though they just had a meeting. So right now we can thank OPEC for the high oil prices. If there were no OPEC gas would be going for under $30 a barrel right now due to high unemployment in much of the world that idles cars and manufacturing.

  7. Bob, your mixed up. That is the day that Ahmadinejad goes down into the well to talk to the Mahdi. The Iranian people officially cap the well at 4:50 PM with green cement.

  8. By the way, the middle east is so undeveloped because they are downing in money from all that oil. In other words, they never learned any occupation.

  9. Don and others:

    Seeing how we know what you are saying here to be true, bottom line we have 2-3yrs before chaos and collapse.

    What do we do with this knowledge?

    I think the #1 thing a true Christian needs to do is prepare spiritually. Without the Lord as your solid Rock one is totally without hope. Beyond the spiritual….

    Do we just sit by and wait for it to happen? Stock up on gold and silver? I personally have about 6m of long term food and water stored but beyond that I am at a loss. I could buy a 1yr supply of freeze dried food for my family for about $6000 which I think would be a no-brainer but is that needed?

    When you think about it, food and energy will be in the highest demand. Also most of us, who are wise, have cash reserves built up to help sustain periods of no income, what happens to that cash when all hell breaks loose? So what do we do with this info?

  10. Winter is tough in some areas of the world but life goes on for most. God knows how to take care of his children.

    A few months to get you through the worst storms is plenty. What most people in this nation really need to prepare for is to live much more frugally than they have been. The standard of living for most is going to radically decline. People will get the basics but they might be rationed and luxuries will really become a luxury.

    I would not put faith in your cash reserves. Have faith in God. Other than that the best anyone can do to prepare under any conditions of life is to be hard working and a asset to others.

  11. I see this as an opportunity…

    It’s a little like exercise, it a pain to get started and there are painful times as you’re doing it, but it gets better and the benefits are much better than not doing it.

    But far better is the confidence that we have in our Heavenly Father: He is our treasure ahead, but also our “safety-net” here, so (for example) I can afford to go out on a limb and live with an “abundance” rather than “scarcity” mentality: What I mean by that is that God owns everything, and that as His child I know He will provide what I *need*. SO, when I’m near the end of our paycheck and He presents us with an opportunity to minister that cuts-into our reserve, we are confident that we can use this for ministry knowing that He will make up the difference because He has ALL resources at His disposal, not simply ours.

    I can testify that He *really* does this, because we are forever “on the edge” resource-wise here in my family, mostly for things beyond our control: BUT He’s been teaching me not to fret about it (like I used to). It took some time for me to become this comfortable with God’s provision, and the ways that He sometimes chooses to meet our needs, but He has *NEVER* failed! Being on the edge is never comfortable, but each time, He comes-through even as He challenges us to continue giving and ministering with His resources, and we learn to hold-onto-things loosely…

    AND we are NOT perfect people by any means – you know how some Christians make it seem that God will only answer your prayers, will only meet your needs if you are 100% holy-perfect-blameless 100% time? Well I am a “recovering” perfectionist who really struggled with that view and it would bring me to despair thinking and feeling that Christ’s love was real (in an abstract sense), but worrying about His love and provision because I know (something) of how imperfect I am. (I very much knew God loved me, but I profoundly felt that He didn’t like me.) ANYWAY, His *grace* abounds, and rather than making me feel OK in my flaws, my sin, abandoning myself to His grace, His care, has helped me to surrender more and more to His will out of joy and gratitude! AND I have seen His provision for me and my family, and I have become so much more free to give knowing that it’s all His anyway, and I’m His. He is *so good* to us…*SO GOOD*!!! I am *so blessed*!!!

  12. what about the thousands of kids who die each year of hunger? how does god care about them? correction, millions of kids who die each year of hunger?

  13. Bob, our lives here are temporary. Possibly most people don’t realize that there is *vastly* more than just our lives here. You can think of our time, our lives here as being a training ground, AND we are also on a battlefield: All of this is bigger than my life, yours or the multiplied millions who have died (whether as innocent children or otherwise) – There is a cosmic drama going on here: God is at the center, we are important players, and all of those in the Heavenlies are witnesses to see how this all playes-out…

    If you believe as others, without Christ, do that our lives here are all that is, I can see your overriding concern. To such people death is the ultimate injury. BUT to those who know Christ personally, death is simply the gateway from one part of our eternal life to another (better) part. I am throughly convinced by my God’s character that all of these children are safe with Him. Moreover, He will ensure than anyone who really wants Him, will have Him; God moves Heaven and earth to bring people to Himself through Christ’s self-sacrifice – whether He does it through the witness of His children or He has to do it supernaturally, He will uphold His character…

    BUT, from your reply, it sounds like you think that I’ve had it “easy” compared to all those kids who’ve died. Bob, I can assure you that many, *MANY* times I’ve wished that I could be blessed with an early death. I wish I had died in place of my twin brother in infancy. I have gone through (and am going through) things that would curl most people’s hair. A third of the people who have to deal with what I deal with every day, with God’s grace, take their own lives because it’s too hard to endure. There is *nothing* except my love and duty to those close to me that keeps me here. I am homesick for Heaven and especially my Abba, ready to go anytime He wants to take me.

    So Bob, I *am* a witness to what God does with any impossibility that we surrender to him. You can take it or leave it…

  14. Don and others,

    Don’t get me wrong, I try daily to “Have faith in God”. Doesn’t everyone sometimes feel that we are all alone and that the Lord only rescues us when we are about to walk over the cliff! (And I am talking when its no fault of our own of course) Regularly I have seen in my life, if I don’t make it happen, nobody else will, including the Lord. Just having faith does not seem to be enough in these times ahead. I feel like I have to do more to plan and prevent being a victim of the chaos and idiots around me who do make foolish decisions. Lets face it, until heaven we are going to get hammered by things that are not our fault, but because we live next to legions of godless fools who are reaping a whirlwind for the sins they practice. Its just a matter of cause and effect. I know that sounds contradictory to the Word of God the Bible but that is how my life has played out.

  15. Eric: You’ve got to remember, God sometimes gives us the wisdom to “make it happen.” We are not going to wake up one morning and all of a sudden there is more money in our bank accounts or live in a McMansion or the wife of our dreams in bed next to us. He can open doors and shut doors for us that we have no power over. I have seen it in my own life where I have won favor of people that others have not.

    As far as the time we live in (we might as well be honest, are going to get worse) I’m paraphrasing, but Jesus said, “do not be troubled, for these things must come to pass.” Someday those in power who have corrupted the world will stand before God and answer for what they have done to this world with their incessant wars, murder, recessions/depressions, etc. If God does not allow evil to run it’s course to it’s wicked climax, then those who are deceivers could actually say that they were “on their way to providing a utopia” for humans. But we as Christians know that the end result of wicked rulers is the eventual rounding up of “undesirables” which is God’s people. Pride corrupts and their own wicked actions will be testimony against them. The worst part for them is that they will have eternity to deal with the guilt of their actions. And will will be on easy street.

  16. Well said Brett and Frank. Brett, may God continue to comfort you in the New Year.

    Eric, Christians are in a partnership with God. We died with Christ and our physical bodies are only left here to do the will of God on earth. If one is walking in the Spirit, God will put thoughts in your mind to take correct action even if you think that you thought it up.

    Yes, we can do things from fleshly motives and build on the house of God with straw. I think most of us do that at times. Remember, whatever you do should be faith motivated. The motivation should not come from fear of what is going to happen to our bodies of flesh. God has it all under control and knows our physical needs.

    If the Church in this nation is to go through a chastisement in the flesh it is because it is for our spiritual benefit. Through it all we will learn to trust in God rather than trusting in worldly riches and material things.

    No physical preparations done with the attitude that God won’t provide so I have to provide for myself could be in God’s will. However, if God’s Spirit moves you to physically prepare for the coming troubles for the sake of self preservation so He can use you in the future, or for others, what preparations you feel led to take is being done by faith.

    The hard part is determining when we are walking in the flesh and when we are walking in the Spirit. That is part of sanctification process. You learn to discern through practicing your walk of faith.

    As Brett said, all this is some cosmic drama or witnesses. The whole creation is learning about the righteousness of God and the Law of faith through the work of Jesus and all those that were washed in the blood of the Lamb.

  17. let’s not forget the START treaty that might soon be ratified. Why on earth would we cut our nukes when everyone else is developing their own. It is all too much to worry about we just have to trust God that he will protect us.

  18. Eric, I apologize but I just thought I’d throw in my two cents here. Please consider Isaiah 50:10, “Who [is] among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh [in] darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.” and 11, “Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass [yourselves] about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks [that] ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.”

    Please understand Isaiah here is speaking about a believer. Someone that rightfully reveres God, and runs to his calling voice, yet still walks in darkness. It surely appears to me that your faith is in the right place. As for your question, “Doesn’t everyone sometimes feel that we are all alone and that the Lord only rescues us when we are about to walk over the cliff!?” You betcha I do!
    Just remember, as I must remind myself much, though not as much as I used to, verse 11. I used to try to walk in the light of my own fire almost daily. Until I figured out what it means to “stay upon my God”. It is to lean on with the expectation of full support. Don’t worry. You’re headed in the right direction.

    Don’t get me wrong. I don’t mean to sit around and do nothing, ever. Lord knows I don’t. Personally I’m a take charge kinda guy. I’m just saying when the urge hits to kindle your own flame, take time to stand still and behold the Lord your God. And when he says march, we march.

  19. lets say a man who killed a woman repented at the end and went to heaven by some chance. now in heaven he comes across this woman whom he murdered and she had a family who suffered because of her loss on earth. my first guess is that a murder will not go to heaven no matter what, my second guess is if he does go, then how is he gonna live side by side with the person that he killed in paradise or the woman who got killed is not gonna like that at all seeing her killer in the same place after all the pain he caused her and her family. im having alot of problems with this thought.

  20. Bob, I suggest you try to stay more on the post topic rather than asking people to explain what the Bible does not explain to your satisfaction. There are christian discussion forums where you can talk about various subjects but this is the comment section of a topical post.

    All those that attain heaven are new creatures in Christ where all sin has been covered. If God cannot look on sin and will remove our sins as far as the East is from the West neither will His sons remember the sins of those who lived in the temporal world. All that is not perfected will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

  21. Bob? I think you would enjoy C.S. Lewis’ short novel, The Great Divorce. Almost the very same situation arises there and what happens is fascinating! It’s a very good book and Lewis has a wonderful way of presenting truth both directly and indirectly and he really gets me to think!

    Here’s a link to the book on amazon. Enjoy!

  22. Ken, Thank you so much for chiming in on this. Is 50:10 really spoke to me as well as how you explained it. Excellent perspective.

  23. Brett, Frank, Eric, Don & Ken, God told Paul “My grace is sufficient for you”. That is all we should expect to receive from God. Everything else from God is an extra blessing for doing what we are instructed to do and that is spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  24. The passage where you took “My grace is sufficient for you” is talking about Paul praying for the thorn in his flesh to be removed. It is not saying that all everyone can expect to receive from God is grace. The thorn was put there so he would not exalt himself above measure because of the special revelation that he received. This passage really is about Paul being chosen as an Apostle.

    If we are going to use scripture to make some argument or application for living that needs to be defined in the context. No case can be made for what you imply in this passage.

    2 Cor:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
    6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
    7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
    11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
    12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

  25. Joel, I’m not sure I fully understand what you’re saying, though I fear I am. Don is correct in clarifying the passage you sight, 2 Cor 12. But could I point you to the first chapter of 2 Cor. I won’t take time here to break down the entire passage, but it appears to me that it can be used to refute your argument. Just a quick reading indicates to me some gifts to the believer in addition to Grace (v 2). I see mercies (v 3), comfort (v 3), consolation (v 5), salvation (v 5), deliverance (v 10). Now whether or not you want to include these “gifts” in the all encompassing word for grace, is a point that can be argued semantically. And you may be correct in that assumption. Nevertheless, I think if that were the case Paul wouldn’t have taken the time to write verses 3-12. He would have just stopped with grace and peace in verse 2 and continued on in verse 13 with the reason for his writing.

    But jump down to verse 20 and you’ll get to the heart of my case, “For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” I interpret that to mean that “all” the promises of God are afforded me ,by faith, through the “grace” of God and Jesus Christ. Think about it. How else am I to appropriate these promises? By works through grace? By perfection through grace? I earnestly hope this is not your point. If I have misinterpreted you comment I apologize.

    Also I wanted to add that you used the phrase, “That is all we should expect to receive from God”, meaning grace. I for one am expecting a little bit more. That is what is meant by the NT greek word for “hope”. Hope is defined as “an expectation of good”. Even given the statement to Paul that, “my grace is sufficient for thee”, which you quite rightly quoted. I believe that, in context, that statement was meant for Paul’s specific request.

  26. so if the economy really collapses and the dollar dies, what are we gonna use then, not everybody has gold thats why i dont think its gonna collapse, alot of people have been saying it and i dont see a collapse. it just makes no sense, how are the people gonna live and buy food etc?

  27. To everyone,

    Alot of true beleivers I know who keep up with world events have a feeling that we are in the end times. I don’t know how to describe it but you can just sense it. Many believe time is short and the rapture is rapidly approaching. I was just wondering if this is from God? Would He do this? And what would be the purpose of Him giving us this feeling if it is from God?

  28. I don’t think Christians will see the total collapse of the dollar. I think that will happen at the very beginning of the Tribulation period. When the Rapture happens, the U.S. will literally lose millions (I have no idea of the percentage of the U.S. population that is actually saved) of people and the nation will be in chaos, and the world for that matter. The black horse (famine and inflation) arrives then. In fact, when less people are in the U.S., this means you will have instantaneous devaluing of the dollar since there will be the same amount of dollars between fewer people. You would think this would increase the value of the dollar, but based on economics it will not.

    When that happens (dollar collapse), the unbelievers that are left here will beg and plead for the gov’t to do something. And then the Anti-Christ with rise with his ‘solutions’, one being the mark. And that technology gets cheaper every day.

    The world economy is basically in warm-up mode for what will happen in the future. Major currencies around the world are being inflated simultaneously (esp. the dollar, euro, yen, and the Chinese yuan-although not as much right now).

    A very good article explaining what our Central Bank is doing: http://www.europac.net/commentaries/whom_bell_tolls

  29. Jim: It is definitely from God. The Bible says that true believers will recognize the signs of the times and when these signs are evident, believers would know His coming was getting near. Jesus was not talking about signs in the stars, etc.

    Every Christian I know has a sense of urgency that time is running out to win souls for Christ. As crazy as these times are and as backward as this world is, people need the Lord.

    Even the Devil knows his time is growing short. That is why you are seeing more and more international agreements taking place, and a push for the Jews to make ‘peace’ with the people that want to wipe them off the face of the earth. I laugh at the thought of making peace with your sworn enemies, but the Bible says that Israel will agree to a 7-year peace agreement in the beginning of the Tribulation period.

  30. Well Bob, if it does collapse and become worthless like in the Weimar Republic the government will just keep chopping zeros off of the dollar until the government comes up with a monetary system that is actually backed by something more tangible than good faith. Also barter will become much more practical. Most will pretty much live day by day and bargain to get paid at the new rate perhaps monthly weekly or even daily(depending upon the rate of hyperinflation).

    When I say collapse I generally am talking about a rapid weakening of the dollar. For example I can easily believe that in ten years it will take ten dollars to buy what one dollar buys today.

    This is not far fetched when you consider that even under normal conditions it now takes 100 dollars to buy what would cost 3 dollars about one hundred years ago. If we get into high inflation the buying power of the dollar drops by the rate of inflation. If we go into deflation the dollar will buy more but people will get paid less dollars if they even have a job in a depression. Therefore, it will be difficult for most to buy goods and services.

    There is no doubt that unsustainable debt will have negative consequences be it inflation or deflation or just severe entitlement cuts. Gold really has nothing to do with whether or not the dollar will collapse. Gold is just a precious metal that people can use to barter for goods and services.

  31. Jim and Frank, That is a good point. Certainly within the 20 to 25 years that I am talking about the Rapture would have had already taken place at some point. I generally put the rapture ten years before the second coming but that is just my conjecture based on my own thinking. It certainly could be sooner or a bit later but let’s suppose I am correct and the second coming is about 2033. Then the rapture would be around 2023. That would mean we only have about 12 1/2 years to the Rapture. The Holy Spirit filled Church should be very aware that the time to work is growing short.

    I do disagree with one point that Frank made. The Devil does not know his time is short at this point. He does not know that until He and His angels are cast out of heaven 42 months before the second coming. Even after that the time to work through the Beast and False prophet to defeat Jesus at his second coming is what is short. Satan himself has another shot at it a thousand years later.

    World government is inevitable but Satan does not know that his rule will be defeated.

  32. i was just wondering when the rapture happens i know it says we gonna meet in the air, but where are we gonna be for the remaining 10 years or so until the 2nd coming? in paradise? on another planet? another dimension perhaps? hmm only god knowss

  33. I am not a writer and I tend to be blunt and to the point. What I was trying to convey was that no matter what our physical condition is, whether it be a bodily disability or a mean financial situation, we are instructed, no ordered, to give to all we meet or know the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was using what God told Paul merely as an example of the power that God gives those that truly “seek first the Kingdom of God”.

    Don, you are a watchman, I also listen for the alarm given by the watchman. As for myself I am merely a ground pounder in the Army of the Lord.

  34. Sorry Bob, your last comment was deleted because your continual off topic questions gets the comment section off the topic of this post. I hope you read what I said on the 17th and try to abide by it. Also read my commenting policy. There is a link to it on the top bar.

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