Heaven and Hell might not exist where most religious people think

Most religious people think that after death those that did enough good works will go up to Heaven for eternity and people who did too many bad works will go down to Hell for eternity. They might be surprised that the Bible does not agree with that premise. First, salvation depends upon faith in the Lord, not in our own good or bad performance. And second, the Bible teaches that Hell will be done away with and the Kingdom of Heaven will actually come to the Earth.

The first words in the Bible say, “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth”. Everything that is not earthly exists in Heaven. If you do a Bible word study on “Heaven” it is always talking about an area outside the existence of the water and land mass of our planet. Since Heaven surrounds the Earth, Heaven is always somewhere above the earth.

The real meaning of Heaven in the Bible is determined by the context. For example, the third Heaven that Paul speaks about being caught up to, is where God has His Throne, it is the same place as the Holy City. The second Heaven is where the stars are, and the first Heaven is the Earth’s atmosphere. They are all different places but all are called Heaven in the Bible.

The third Heaven Where Paul and John went, can also be called the Holy City or the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven would not make up everything that God called Heaven in Genesis 1:1. Anything beyond our physical sphere called Earth is called Heaven. In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth period. So, anything not earthly is in Heaven.

Hell is really of the Earth. Hell came into existence because sin brought about death of the human body. The disembodied spirits of sinners had to go somewhere awaiting judgment and that place is called Hell (Hades). Hell will only exist as long as man is mortal. After God sends fire down on the Earth at the final rebellion, Revelation says, “death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works and death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire” (Rev 20: 13-14).

Since the souls within Hell are delivered up for judgment, and death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, it is not possible that anyone will ever again descend to Hell after their judgment. The temporal place of imprisoned souls under the Earth will no longer exist.

The Bible tells us that the Lake of Fire was created for the Devil and His angels, but all that are not found in the Book of Life also go there (Rev 20: 15). The scriptures do not say that the Lake of Fire becomes Hell. There will be a first and second resurrection, but after people are resurrected into their eternal bodies they cannot become disembodied again, so this prison of souls called Hell will never be populated again. People will eternally either exist in the Holy City, or God’s restored creation and New Earth, or they will exist in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation says that death is cast into the Lake of Fire.  The Bible teaches that there will be no more physical death after that final judgment. There will be a second death, but that is not death of the physical body, it is death of the soul. Death never means non-existence. The first death brought separation of the soul from our mortal body but the second death brings eternal separation of both body and the soul from God and His perfect creation.

Mt 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell (Gehenna not Hades, I will explain Gehenna below).

Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire just like death is. This does not mean that resurrected bodies exist in Hell in the Lake of Fire.  The statement really is saying that death and Hell will not exist in God’s restored creation anymore. So, nobody is going to Hell for eternity, but some will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity. the Lake of Fire might be Hell in one sense of the word to the beings that exist there, but it is not literally the place that most religious people call Hell.

Some of the confusion comes from Jesus statements in the Gospels. The English translations have Jesus saying that certain people were in danger of Hell fire. Actually, Jesus said “Gehenna fire”, Gehenna was the garbage pit of Jerusalem, it burned continually. In other words, Jesus was saying they were in danger of going to a fowl place that most fittingly can be described as existing in a burning garbage dump.

When Jesus references “Gehenna fire” He is always actually referring to the same Lake of Fire that Revelation speaks of. It is never the underworld of Hades. The Lake of Fire is never the temporary abode of the dead that is also translated as “Hell” in our English translations.

The lake of Fire seems to be a very undesirable place. Beings will be sent there because they choose rebellion against their Creator and are not found in the book of life. What cannot be redeemed by Jesus goes into God’s garbage dump because they would continue to defile His creation if they existed in it.

Some have mankind’s future eternity somewhat reversed. Humans tend to believe the eternal Kingdom of Heaven is somewhere in outer space and Hell will exist somewhere below the Earth. In reality, since the Lake of Fire is not on Earth, it actually must be somewhere under Heaven (or else it is totally outside of the created universe that God spoke into existence in Genesis 1:1.) On the other hand, the Kingdom of Heaven called the Holy City descends to be on Earth (Rev 21 2 & 10). ( Yes, there is the possibility that the Holy City will only descend far enough toward Earth to be in orbit above the New Earth.)

The Kingdom of Heaven is wherever God reigns, it is not physically on the Earth now, but it will come to the Earth one day.

Satan deceived Adam, and Adam sinned in rebellion against God. A Holy God could not reign over the sons of Adam on Earth that had a fleshly sin nature that is in rebellion against Him. God could not reign over sin and death, so that was a fitting job to give to the highest created being that sinned from the beginning (Satan – 1 Joh 3:8). The reign of Satan on Earth will only last until man’s sinless Kinsman Redeemer (Jesus) claims His inheritance. Satan actively has tried to prevent that since the fall of Adam and Eve. Once the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth, Jesus will reign on Earth as God. That is why Jesus taught us to pray “Thy Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven”.

God is now taking out a people who by faith (in what Jesus did to conquer sin and death) already allow God to reign over their lives. They will be the Bride of Christ.

The Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the Devil. After the Bride of Christ is complete, Satan will be cast out of Heaven unto the Earth and will no longer have access to the second or third Heaven. Satan will then go out to deceive the nations to war against the God of Heaven. Satan will lose the war and will be bound. Jesus then reigns on earth until the works of Satan on earth are destroyed with the last enemy being death. What Adam failed to achieve on Earth will be accomplished by the Second Adam and those that rule and reign with Him.

After Jesus restores all things on Earth, Satan is loosed to deceive the nations once more to rebel against His anointed. Fire comes down from Heaven and destroys all the deceived. At that time, Satan is judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. Then the final judgment takes place and all not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire that was made for the Devil and His angels. The Earth is then purified with fire and goes into its eternal state. It is populated with the redeemed. God will choose to dwell with men and He will rule from the eternal city called New Jerusalem with His saints and angels for eternity.

I said all that, to say this. Saying that people are going to either Heaven or Hell for eternity is not really how it will be. Those saved will live on the New Earth or they will be in the Holy City on Earth (or perhaps in stationery orbit above Earth). Those not redeemed will not be in Hell, they will be in the Lake of Fire created for the Devil and his angels.

Telling unrepentant sinners that they will be going to Hell does not get the real message across to them anymore. The message has been distorted by the media that mock everything that the Bible says. Thanks to the mockers, most now think that Hell is some place where they can just continue living their life their way instead of God’s way. You might convey to them, that they will eternally exist in a place that Jesus compared to a burning garbage dump. They will have no hope of ever getting out of this burning garbage pit, and they never will be visited by the redeemed that eternally dwell with God. Living life your way, instead of God’s way, is a fatal mistake for your body and your soul.

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 Don Koenig is the founder of ThePropheticYears website. He has been publishing articles on the Internet on Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and Christian worldviews since 1999. You can find well over a thousand articles and thousands of comments written by Don from the homepage of this website.


84 thoughts on “Heaven and Hell might not exist where most religious people think

  1. The line particularly inspired me, “by faith (in what Jesus did to conquer sin and death) already allows God to reign over their lives”

    That is what Christians must do now in their earthly lives. To allow God to reign over their lives NOW in preparation for the Millennial reign and eternity. Of course in varying degrees depending on the Christian’s measure of faith. Some work hard at it, some are lukewarm. This is what will determine the office of the Christian in the hierarchy of rulers and leaders in the Millenial Kingdom.

  2. Thanks Don for enlighting us to the truth of the Word. I have been comtemplating the measurements of the walls to The Kingdom of Heaven on earth this season. The height and thickness of the walls leads me to think that until the 1000 year reign is completed those that will be cast into the lake of fire will be outside the walls as Revelation 22:15 states: Outside the city are the dogs-the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

  3. Don, I sometimes wonder if black holes are the openings to the lake of fire. Nothing seems to be able to escape … I also think hell wasn’t part of the original creation, because God said at the end of Day 6, that the whole creation was perfect. I always wondered when He pronounced judgement on Adam after the Fall, if He started in motion the things that would generate hell in the heart of the earth when He said,”… cursed is the earth for THY SAKE” since now death was part of the picture, and man’s soul and spirit had to have someplace to go after physical death. Both the righteous and unrighteous dead went to different compartments after death before Jesus opened the way to heaven, judging from the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. What do you think ?

  4. Don: Your articles are like beef jerky-there is a lot to chew on. That’s a complement. You remind me of C S Lewis-a US southern version.
    When worldly evil is getting to me and I’m tempted to end it all, I listen to the ‘Screwtape Letters’ or read Paved with Good Intentions.
    One of my favourite lines I’ve read is ‘We expect to be judged by our good intentions while society judges us by our actions.
    Reading the Bible and studying physics and the human brain are very similar.

  5. Do you believe that God has other physical creation somewhere else in the vast universe, other than holy and fallen angels? There are numerous black holes in the universe. If these are portals to the Lake of Fire are they also for the angels scattered throughout the universe? Can angels be cast into the Lake of Fire now, or only after they have been bound to the earth? I know the Bible speaks of them being chained in darkness, but I always assumed this was contained somewhere within the earth also.

  6. Hi Kris,

    I think the Bible teaches that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. If there were other creations it would have to be before the beginning and I then doupt that God would be calling this creation the beginning.

    I tend to agree with Paul Simmons that the Lake of Fire was created for the Devil and His angels after Satan rebelled.

    There are angels chained in darkness under the earth but they are their awaiting the day of judgment.

    I do not think that the Lake of Fire has anything to do with black holes. Even Stephen Hawkings is now doubting that they even exist as he first theorized. Even so, we can only really know what God tells us about the Lake of Fire and that is not very much.

  7. Don, I would be interested in your opinion of Revelation 22:15 in correlation to your article and the measurements of the walls of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth to keep them out. Thanks!!

  8. And to add: “where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth” — weeping being pain and gnashing being anguish. The converse is “forever wipe away tears,” which is most certainly a place I yearn for.

  9. Stephen,

    I really cannot conjecture about what it does not say. The context of the passage really implies that unrepentant evil doers will never exist in the Holy City

  10. Don,

    I really liked this article on straightening out in detail “Heaven and Hell”…the differences and the temporal locations.

    I think I take it for granted and refer too often to there being one extreme or the other without taking into account what you Biblically defined in this article….I learned quite a few things from this article and will better use the correct facts when talking with others about it…I’ll be referring back to it myself and tell others about this article.

  11. Don,

    Do you know that Jesus and the Apostles disagreed with you that people go to heaven or hell when they die? Have you really bought into the Greek philosophy of the immortal soul, or do you agree with the bible that believers receive immortality when they are awakened from sleep/raised from the grave during the 1st resurrection?

    If anything other than the grave and hope of resurrection were the case, it looks like the bible would so state at some point, but it doesn’t. This mortal must put on immortality. If you are mortal when you die, you die, it the definition of mortality. If it were true that no one really died when they died, but rather went to spend an eternity in heaven or hell, we wouldn’t truly be mortal.

    But we are mortal, our hope is to be raised immortal in the first resurrection. The rest are raised in a second resurrection at some later point and face the judgment. And those who are not written in the book of life will be destroyed, not keep on living and being tortured for eternity.

    If you take the Greek Philosophy out of the reading of the bible it makes much more sense, and becomes much more accurate in its agreement with Jesus and the Apostles, who are in agreement with our Father.

  12. ODon: I am so looking forward to my GLORIFIED body. Then I can have my uninjured brain back and earn a PHD in Holy Scripture studies.
    Isit true that those of us who are ‘harpazoed’ ‘caught up’ ‘raptured’ will be instructing those folks on earth?
    I knew in 1982 when I purchased my first study Bible-Scofield-that I would never be the same. Also, the Holy Spirit advised me to NEVER use the Holy Scripture as a weapon of harm. We are to leave revenge to HIM. YHWH has the big picture. I forget that…..

  13. David V,

    I make the argument against people spending eternity in Hell in this article. You might read what I actually said rather than what you think I said.

    I did not know you were a J.W.

    The Bible does not teach annihilation. It would be pretty silly to raise those that you suggest died (and no longer exist) only so they could be resurrected and judged according to their works just so they would be annihilated again as you suggest.

    Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    (ever and ever literally means ages of the ages)

    The Beast and the False Prophet are in the lake of fire even after over a thousand years and the Bible says they will be their for ages of the ages but yet you think they are annihilated? Last I heard the Beast and False Prophet were human, so if The Lake of Fire is good enough for those two humans it probably will be good enough for some others.

    If Jesus and the Apostles disagreed with there being a Hell, I would like to see where?

    The Bible is clear that after death of the body, unsaved people go to a place where they retain self-awareness and that place is called Hell in English. Nowhere, do I suggest that there will not be a first and second resurrection, so I don’t know why you even bring that up. Nothing I said has anything to do with Greek Philosophy, that is your own delusion.

  14. Don,

    First Of I am not a J.W. which I guess stands for Jehovah’s Witness. Thank you very little for the insinuation.

    The Bible never says that at death people, saved or otherwise, go anywhere but the grave. The whole point of the 1st resurrection is dead people waiting to be raised back to life where they meet with the believers who are alive at our King’s return. As with the second resurrection where dead people are raised from the grave to face the judgment.

    As far as my delusion. Do you not believe in an Immortal Soul in the style came from Greek Philosophy? Cause only someone with an Immortal Soul, does anything but die at death. Just like Jesus and the Apostles believed.

    Show me one place in the bible it says people have an immortal soul, or that people when they die go to heaven. I can show you numerous places the bible says people go to the grave when they die.

  15. David V,

    Your welcome. With your views you must have your very own version of the Bible like the JW’s.

    The point of that phase of first resurrection is to unite the soul that went to be with Jesus with their resurrected bodies. The Bible says to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. Non existence is not taught. Even Jesus descended to make a proclamation to those imprisoned in Hell.

    Jesus said God is a God of the living. Enoch and Moses appeared with Jesus. There are so many examples of souls existing after physical death in the bible. I am not even going to waste my time on your nonsense.

    You keep saying that Jesus and the apostles believed your nonsense, but I have not seen any examples. So, unless you come up with something believable from the scriptures you might not even waste time trying to comment here anymore.

    My question is how come you continually are contrary to everything? Why do you always take a position contrary to orthodox Christian theology? I guess you think only you or your sect has it all figured out and Christians are all deceived? Yet, you never can back up what you say with clear teaching from the scripture.

  16. Re: The Debate Of Death, Awareness, Temporal Locations, Heaven, And Hell, etc.

    Though some might debate that this is different now because it could be referring directly towards a Pre-Jesus Time as opposed to Post-Jesus Time.


    Luke 16:22

    “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

  17. Don

    Very solid – overall one of the best Biblical based explanations of the only two destinations of all human souls I have seen. It lines up with exactly with the position that I held for a long time. But a few years back a couple of Bible verses jumped out at me – and you quoted or alluded to both of them.

    Mt 10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.” It seems to mean something when it first says “kill the soul” and then switches to “destroy… soul”. I can somewhat see the argument that death is the separation from God but this scripture does not use the word “death” it uses the word “destroy”. Is to remove from God’s presence then to “destroy”? That doesn’t really seem to fit.

    You don’t directly quote the second verse that jumped out at me – but you mentioned it by saying: “There will be a second death, but that is not death of the physical body, it is death of the soul.” Revelation 20:14 actually says: “Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.” Now I seem to agree with you here – their physical body died, they were resurrected to the Great White Throne judgment and then thrown into the Lake of Fire where they experienced the “second death” – the death of their “eternal” soul by having their soul destroyed. I see no room for eternal torment here either.

    Revelation 20:10 then says: “The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” It seems to me this is the verse that brings the confusion over humans being tormented forever and ever. It seems to me that this verse clearly says the Devil, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (That also implies to me that the rest of the fallen angels will receive a similar treatment.) No humans are mentioned here – most likely because they all died the second (soul) death (destruction).

    Do those verses now give you the same change in understanding that I had?


  18. Fount,

    What makes you think the Beast/Antichrist and the False Prophet are not human? The Bible does not imply that they are not human and the OT prophecies about them certainly indicate that they are men.

    The word used in the passage “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell” does not necessary mean “destroy” as in annihilation. It can mean “to put out of the way entirely” and that meaning fits with the belief that these beings will be separated from God for eternity.

    I also do not know why people think God treats rebellious angels differently than rebellious humans. Both are creations of God. Apparently you think angels are alive in the Lake of Fire forever but rebellious humans will be annihilated there. However, I assume in the resurrection that humans are given indestructibly bodies or they could not even be judged before God in the first place.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the idea of eternal torment for any being, but I think people assume that torment is physical torture. It probably is more like knowing for eternity that you never will become “like God” because you rebelled against God and you will be eternally without God and not share in His creation.

  19. Don,

    The key is removing the doctrines from the Christian religion that have derived from Greek Philosophy. You rightly claim that my beliefs aren’t orthodox in comparison to the Christian Religions of the day, but they are closer in agreement with what Jesus and the Apostles believed.

    As the Protestants broke from the then Orthodoxy of the Catholic Church, I am doing so now with what you consider orthodox. The protestants didn’t go far enough in removing spurious doctrines, which arrived……from guess where……Greek Philosophy. I am trying to remove every last one from my beliefs.

    I am not a member of any cult or organized with anybody. I strive as much as possible to align my thoughts with the thoughts of our Father, and await the coming of His Kingdom on Earth.

    As far as me ‘proving my case’ to you by debating individual scriptures, when has that ever worked in the history of denominational Christianity? People are VERY stuck in a particular belief system and cling to it with passion, if they care at all.

    I prefer to make my case to you by a study of history. There is no denying the creep of Greek philosophy into the religion of Christianity by a long list of apologists. I reject their teaching and align myself with the people who came before them and lived in the first century.

    We were warned by Jesus and the Apostles about the heresies that would enter the religion. How are these Greek Philosophies, not heresies, seeing as how they differ with the beliefs of the early church?

    A quote from Early Church father, Justin Martyr: “I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong1 to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistically and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men’s teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The Day of the Lord,’ is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place.”

    From this article:


  20. David V,

    Your view explains a lot about why you are always contrary. However, if you are going to present an argument here base it on the inspired 66 books of the Bible. That is the only thing that carries any real weight around here. The beliefs of the early fathers probably had more error than we have today. The only infallible source we have are the inspired scriptures. Now, don’t try to argue here about the Bible versions and such. You claim the apostles and Jesus taught something different than I said about Hell. Use what is recorded in the Bible to prove that or be gone.

  21. David V says: “I prefer to make my case to you by a study of history.”

    Therein lies the rub.

    Have the writers of history had understanding of all truth? Are they free from bias and prejudice? I think not, yet they are believed over and above the inspired words of the Bible.

    The Bible is one coherent story from start to finish, it is the only infallible history, and it has an eschatology that proves its Divine inspiration.

    The Bible is His story, whilst history is generally a story constructed by fallible men on limited knowledge.

    We should believe in God’s word whether we like what he says or not.

  22. The book of Revelation is John writing down a series of visions that Jesus Christ was given by God to show “His slaves” (we born again Christians) what must take place. John was “in the Spirit” at the time the visions were shown – meaning John was seeing the spiritual truths behind and driving the physical realities happening here on earth.

    The beast coming up out of the sea had 10 horns and seven heads. That is the spiritual reality behind whom we call the anti-Christ. I do believe when we look at the anti-Christ we will see a male human. He will be fully possessed or indwelled with the very powerful fallen angel that has 10 horns and seven heads. A normal human simply doesn’t have the power of the anti-Christ.

    The beast coming up out of the earth had two horns like a lamb but sounded like a dragon. That is the spiritual reality behind whom we call the False Prophet. I do believe that when we look at the anti-Christ we could see a human male (or female – all of the Greek tenses use in describing the False Prophet are gender neutral not masculine). However, he/she will be fully possessed or indwelling with the very powerful fallen angel that has two horns and sounds like a dragon. A normal human simply doesn’t have the power of the False Prophet.

    Demon possession is a very well documented device of the devil that has been going on since before the time of Jesus on earth. Why would anyone think it will not be used at this most crucial time in the kingdom of Satan?

    The Greek word in Matthew 10:28 translated into English as “destroy” is “apollumi”. It means “to destroy fully” and is translated perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x), misc. (2x) according to Strong’s. “Put out of the way” doesn’t really seem to fit here. I simply see perish or destroy (59x) as better fitting with the other phrase in Revelation “the second death” than the other possibility of simply being lost to God (27x) without being destroyed.


  23. Fount, (corrected copy. I selected the wrong Greek word for “destroy” but the meanings are the same)

    In other words, you are saying don’t take what the scriptures say literally just expect some spiritual reality to somehow fulfill the prophecies about the Antichrist and the False Prophet. The problem with that is that it just does not fit what scripture say in both the OT and the NT.

    It is rather strange that you think the Antichrist and the False Prophet are not male or female when every good Bible translation in existence uses the masculine gender for both of them. Even the types for the Antichrist in the OT were all male.

    The Beast with the 7 heads and the 10 horns symbolizes the Devil ruling over the kingdoms and ten kings on the earth. The Antichrist is not Satan. Satan empowers the Antichrist and his false prophet. The Bible is clear that the man of sin the Son of Prediction is human and male. Satan does not get cast into the Lake of Fire after the tribulation the Antichrist does and the Antichrist is clearly a man. Scripture says he will be in the Lake of Fire forever and ever so he is a human that is not being annihilated.

    As for the word destroy “apollumi”.

    GrKEng Lexicon

    from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT-1:394,67; {See TDNT 86?} v

    AV-perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92

    1) to destroy
    1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
    1b) render useless
    1c) to kill
    1d) to declare that one must be put to death
    1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
    1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
    2) to destroy
    2a) to lose

    So please spare me the lecture that this word “apollumi” has to mean annihilation (of the body and soul) when the meaning of this word can mean exactly what I said.

    Even though the Bible makes it clear that these are men, you want to make them angels just to fit your conjecture that humans will cease to exist once they are cast into the Lake of Fire. That is where allegory and human rationalization takes you. Just make up what you want to believe, instead of believing what scripture actually says.

    You also did not answer why you think God would be just to cast fallen angels in the Lake of Fire forever but He would not be just to do the same thing to resurrected humans that prove to be sons of the Devil?

    I get a little tired of people that come up with arguments but that never answer the arguments that I present. I also get tired of those that post what they feel God would do, but have no Bible passages supporting their feelings. Prove what you believe from scripture. We both know that human rationalization without support from scripture is pretty meaningless.

    Also. if you are going to make personal comments about me, like you did on your last comment that did not get posted, they certainly will not be posted.

  24. Don, here’s one reason why God doesn’t destroy the wicked after death, but keeps them in a conscious state : God will be glorified even by the wicked in the afterlife. If they were annhilated, their last act would effectively be “thumbing their nose” at God. But, if there is eternal punishment of the wicked in a conscious state, then God’s word about what would happen to them is verified, and God is glorified, just as Philippians 2:9-11 says He will be. David V doesn’t understand that part of being made in the image of God is that once a human soul is brought into existence, that soul never ceases to exist. The only issue is WHERE that human’s soul and spirit will spend eternity.

  25. Hi Don and all,

    Looks like my messages are going thru.

    I wrote the other day that David V. Is a Mormon.The Greek garbage and historical kick is comeing from a book by Richard Hopkins ,titled,”how Greek philosophy Corruptedthe Christian concept of God” Look it up on amazon.
    You had the wrong cult don,but were close.Non of these unsaved people can or will use the bible,because they do not understand it.To those who are perishing,it is foolishness,but to those who believe it is the power of God.(paraphrased)
    All cultist want to denigrate Gods Holy Word.Lets ask him if Jesus Christ came in the flesh the first time as he will come again.That should be interesting.
    Happy to be of service.

    Dave L

  26. To David L,

    Wrong again about Mormonism, nor have I read the book you site. It’s amazing how if you don’t buy into the “orthodox” doctrines of the day, you are classified as being in some kind of cult.

    Instead of being force fed, left over Greek garbage, I choose to investigate and then believe the actual truth, and be in agreement with the early church fathers.

    Above, commentator says history isn’t to be trusted. That is also kind of amazing, see as how I can track back to the creation of most every doctrine the modern churches follows.

    I trust in God’s word, not the imagination of men. Sadly, most today, can’t say the same. Most of the doctrines men believe today comes from Greek Philosophy, not commonality with the religions founding fathers. And you know what, no here can show that what I am saying isn’t the truth.

  27. David L,

    Thanks for that input. That would explain a lot. I of course don’t know if David V. really is a Mormon. Mormons writing books are pretty good at passing themselves off as Christians and deceive Christians.

    No Mormon can get eschatology correct, they have made up their own. In spite of what Mormon and some evangelicals say Mormons are not true Christians, they have a different gospel and they have a Jesus that does not exist.

    The following is a short list of some Mormon doctrine even though those at the lower levels and some deceivers at the top would deny some of it.


    One of my pet peeves are those that read someone’s book and then make that book their own authority as if a book is now gospel truth. Then they are driven to convince people on the internet that they have the infallible truth because they read and bought into a book.

    For example, I cannot even visit a new church without the pastor and others talking about the blood moon nonsense that is now all over the Christian media.

    I can tell what American “Christians” have on their mind by the number of downloads on topical subjects that come from the search engines. Last month the top downloaded article on this website by far was my article on Russia. The reason for that was obvious. This month the top article being downloaded by far is my article about the blood moons. It is already in the top fifteen downloaded articles of all time for my blog.


    I wish “Christians” would look to the Bible for information instead of just buying into the latest hucksters.

  28. Don,

    Funny you should mention blood moons,as the first one is the 15th of April.When I first heard about these,I addmitt,I was fascinated,but came to understand that the Jews based their calender , on the moon’s phases,then I read your article and a few more like it,so interesting,but prophetic?I think not.
    I’m in agreement with the timeline you lay out.I came to that view on a parallel course.When I settled on the cross happening in 33 ad,the rest fell into place.
    But the date setters are all in a dither.I’ll check that link on Mormons, James’s White has some stuff too,in the archives.As to the article above,always enjoy reading your stuff.But I’m in the choir.Have a good evening.

    Dave L

  29. David V,

    I am sure all denominations have doctrinal problems. The ultimate Christian authority is the Bible. Arguments have to be built on God’s word. Having said that, God did give the Church teachers. However, there are false teachers. It is up to each of us to check out what teachers say with what God said. Unfortunately, there is very little teaching going on in our churches today, and hardly anyone checks out what their pastor/teachers do say with the scriptures.

    But let us remember, on essentials there needs to be unity and on the other stuff there needs to be liberty. Much of the doctrines of the day, fall into the second camp.

  30. Ok David V.

    If your not Mormon,then you are Christadelphian.Why the subterfuge anyway? Cultic denominations always try and hide who they are.

    Christadephians are anti Trinitarian,annihilationist,AND TEACH THAT GREEK PHILOSOPHY CORRUPTED THE BIBLE!
    They also put an emphasis on historical church fathers teaching,even when it does not agree with God’s word.Have I missed anything?
    So you still belong to an unorthodox group.


    Dave L

  31. Hi bob,

    Arnold murry is a mixed bag.His theology has elements from Christian identity,meaning that the US and Canada are the ten lost tribes of Israel.Next on the hit parade the serpent seed doctrin,from William Branham,which teaches that Eve had sexual relations with Satan and bore Cain.And there are many more just as bad.These days any and every heresy is being latched onto and incorporated.A lot of mystical and Gnostic practices as well.The body of Christ needs to be more discerning than ever,and that means reading their bibles.

    Blessings in Christ
    Dave L

  32. Ya’ know,

    I think that what we have seen in the debates of what is, and what is not Biblical, is typical of humanity meddling with something that’s not as complicated as it’s being made to believe.

    It makes me think of the Catholic Church from long ago that prohibited the common folk (for obvious power and control reasons) of having scripture until people like Tyndale forced it into the hands of the common folk.

    I think the author of confusion is working overtime and doing a standout job at his deception.

    I am thankful that people like Don and other commentators on this blog are here to alert us for the apostasies.

    I think that anyone who truly love’s The Lord God Almighty with all their heart and soul is not going to settle for some occultish apostasies.

  33. David V. And interested Christians,

    I found a site by a former Christadelphian born and raised in the movement.David,you should read his testamony.
    “www.christadelphianresearch.com/about me” His site is very comprehensive and historical in nature.That should appeal to you.There are forums there too.The author also talks about JW’s and how they are similar.So,what ever group you belong to,go find the truth David.That truth is Gods Word,all 66 books worth.I’m being sincere in praying God would open your eyed,ears and heart.

    Dave L

  34. To Bob and David L,

    I have no affiliation with anyone, why are you straining so hard to put me in some kind of cultic box? I belonged to several Baptist churches from the mid-90’s to 2010.

    Am simply a seeker of truth, who decided a few years ago that I wasn’t satisfied with the story being told me by any of the protestant denominations, Catholic church, or any of what is called cults.

    What I have found isn’t any new information, I choose to subtract the information that was added to Christian beliefs over the last 1700 to 1800 years of Church writings on the subject. When you do this, or so I have found, the bible becomes a much easier read, because I no longer read with what I call Greek Goggles or pre-supposed ideas that derive from Greek Philosophy, we have when we go to the bible.

    I simply want to believe as closely as possible with Jesus and the Apostles. I have no nefarious purposes, not trying to recruit anybody for anything, nor am I after your money.

    I am expressing my opinion about the subject at hand, not expecting your agreement, if anything, all I ask is for you to question the doctrines you have received and investigate for yourself if they are in agreement with what Jesus and the Apostles meant when they wrote them. Do we get to force our ideas on what these men have written, or should we as best as possible, have our thinking in agreement with what they meant at the time they wrote?

    Bible Scholars agree that the church was Hellenized and Platonized, the only question is the degree. I am not proposing anything new, only that the protestants didn’t go far enough in removal of false doctrines established by the Catholic Church.

  35. David V,

    I agree that the protestants didn’t go far enough in removal of false doctrines established by the Catholic Church. However, we cannot broad-brush that to all protestants today either. We do have Bible churches. Some protestants today base their doctrine strictly on what they believe the scriptures teach.

  36. David V.

    How do you come to your views then,who’s books have you read?You did not get there reading the bible.What web sites are you following?There has to be a process of learning these views you hold.

    Dave L

  37. Hey Don,
    This is quite a thought provoking dish you’ve served up here. I might be going out on a limb, but could it be possible that unbelievers will be transported into another dimension?” A dimension of doom and gloom from which they can never escape, but from which they might also have a window on the joyous heavenly glories enjoyed by saved souls. To me, this would be the worst hell of all, seeing forever what you might have had…if only you’d believed.

  38. David V. ,

    I know exactly where you are coming from and I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying. A few years back I stepped out of the mainstream institution and realized questions I had were not being answered. If they were, it was the typical Christianese. Just like many other robotic answers I hear from others that come knocking at your door. Its hard to understand what you yourself are trying to convey here IF you are stuck in this same merry-go-round as we once were.I understand exactly what you are saying but I wouldn’t have if I didn’t do what I did. Jesus is more real to me now more than He ever was. The thing is, is that unless you are willing to step out, detox (that’s my own description)and truly seek the Truth that is right in front of our faces everyday, speaking of the Bible of course, He will show you and it will blow your mind. BUT the sneaky problem is, is that when you have been taught one way or one doctrine all your life, you filter everything through those doctrinal glasses. Whether it be end times views (pre-trib etc.), views on the Kingdom, views on Where do we go when we die, etc. etc. It’s difficult to enter a conversation like this when the foundational groundwork on this subject is completely different on both sides.

  39. Jason,

    That is why we have to determine what the Bible actually says. In order to do that, you have to first know the scriptures and you have to understand the scriptures in full context of the passage and all the other passages that apply within God’s word (good teachers help tremendously there).

    Now, let’s all try to keep in mind that this post is about Heaven and Hell and the Lake of Fire. It is not about how David V learns the scriptures or anyone else. The arguments about those places need to be backed by scripture. One word on the meaning of the word “destroy” does not make a convincing argument in the light of all scripture. Nor does it answer the arguments that I brought up against annihilation and his belief that there is eternal torment for fallen angels but annihilation for fallen humans in that same Lake of Fire.

  40. Hi all,

    I have been exploring who,or what groups are teaching annihilationism,Greek corruption of bible,no trinity etc.and the top groups still are : LDS, JW, Christadelphians, Unitarians, United Church of God, Christian Scientist, some Hebrew roots movements, and a whole host of independant web sites who laughfably claim no affiliation.(they must of developed in a vacuum) The point being is,that without the bible,and being born again,haveing the Holy Spirit to illuminate the word to our minds, you only end up being decieved.If some are developeing their theology from web content,and or other books,well that’s grisly a shame.And David,being a former Baptist does not mean that your foundation is sound,there are groups that are teaching errors as well.And no one is going to waste time refuteing your heretical views .Those errorshave been around a long time.So again,you have dodged the main question,how did you come to believe as you do.who’s material have you been consuming?

    Dave L

  41. Since Scripture is the final authority for all true Christians,here are some that indicate people do not go into soul-sleep after physical death: * Moses didn’t sleep until the day of resurrection, but was fully conscious when he appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus and Elijah because they were talking about Jesus’ impending death (Luke 9:30,31). * When Stephen was about to die from being stoned, he didn’t ask the grave to receive him, but asked the Lord Jesus to receive his spirit. He was not looking toward an unconscious existence, but rather, one of conscious fellowship with the Lord (Acts 7:59). * Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). * When Paul was stoned to death at Lystra (Acts 14:19,20)he went to heaven and later wrote about the experience in II Corinthians 12:1-7, where he says he was caught up to heaven and heard things which he was not allowed to reveal. Sounds like he was conscious to me. * After the opening of the 5th seal during the Tribulation, the martyred souls under the altar in heaven cry out to God for vengence (Rev.6:9-11). Doesn’t sound like they are unconscious to me… these scriptures should clarify that after physical death, we go on to a conscious existence in one of only two destinations : heaven or hell.

  42. Paul,

    and with Don’s permission to answer.

    Moses was seen in a vision with Jesus and Elijah, a vision is different than someone actually being there. How is Moses different than David, who Peter testifies in Acts was still dead and in his grave?

    Spirit used by Stephen means the breath of life given by God. You need an understanding of the Jewish concept of the human soul as a mixture of earth and Pnuema or Spirit from God and that when one died the Spirit returned to God who gave it, while the body returned to the earth. Check the next verse “Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.” As you probably know, falling asleep means to die.

    To the thief on the cross: I tell you today, that you will be with me in Paradise. “I tell you today” is a Jewish statement that shows the importance of the occasion and the promise being made. What it doesn’t mean is that Jesus is saying that the thief and himself were going to be in Paradise on that day, no biblical scholars would make that argument.

    Paul’s trip to heaven was a vision much as John’s was in Revelations.

    The souls under the altar are crying out just as Abel’s blood cried out to God from the ground, crying out is used several times throughout the bible in much the same way.

    A question for you Paul, if people died and went to heaven wouldn’t you think at some point the bible would clearly say as much? You can search, but you will never find a scripture saying that. Instead what we continually see is death and a promise of resurrection at the last day made possible by the price that our King paid on the cross.

  43. Great job once again, Don! The only authority is scripture and we have to remember that God sovereignly chose to have His word written in Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT). We can understand our bible in the English language but being available to Hebrew and Greek languages expounds the richness of it. Paul Simmons uses the scripture to back up the fact that heaven and hell are literal places. So many interpret the bible other than literal. We must take it literal to understand it with the help of the Holy Spirit. Annihilation means “cease to exist” and if that were the case, I think the bible would give the state of unbelievers as ceasing to exist after the Great White Throne Judgment instead of being cast into the Lake of Fire as Jesus states in Mark 9:43,44 “The fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm(germ of life) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”. Also, the book of Isaiah closes with a strong statement concerning the judgment of the wicked, “For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Isaiah 66:24. Everlasting destruction is everlasting separation from God in torment. Whenever God’s word is symbolic, it gives the explanation. In the case of Hell fire, it is never explained to be anything other than literal fire. Unbelievers in Hell are in spiritual torment only,for their bodies are in the grave. After the second resurrection the bodies of unbelievers will be raised and become spiritual bodies which cannot die or be destroyed. Throughout eternity they will be in torment in the Lake of Fire. By the way, Seventh Day Adventists also believe in annihilation of the wicked. I don’t think anything I have written adds to Don and others literal interpretation but just to be in agreement that yes, there is a heaven and yes there is a hell and yes, everyone lives forever somewhere!

  44. David V,

    I never seen such gobble gook rationalizations about what was said in scripture in my life. And all to justify your position of annihilation. You obviously think that Jesus did not go down into Paradise and deny that the Lazarus and the rich man illustration is to be taken literally. Your problem is that you deny what the Bible says. You talk about your taking off Greek glasses to interpret the scriptures but your problem is that you replaced them with Gnostic glasses.

    Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.

    Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    By the way, Hades is not the grave, the word for that is Sheol, and even it were the grave the souls obviously exist.

    The scripture says to Christians, to be absent from the body is to present with the Lord. Where do you think the Lord is? Oh, I get it, the Lord does not exist right now, He will have to be resurrected because your Lord did not rise from the dead and is not God. If you actually believe that, you are not even saved. You have a different Jesus and a different way of salvation. And you are here trying to teach the saved??

  45. David V… Bingo… absolutely spot on bro…

    The whole “Soul” concept is very difficult to understand if you have been Platonized all your life…

    The breath of life goes back to the one who gave it
    Ecclesiastes 12:7 as you stated:

    7 then the dust shall return to the earth as
    it was, and the SPIRIT shall return to God
    who gave it.

    Regarding Spirit, Soul and Body

    1 Thess 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself
    fully sanctify you, and may your whole
    SPIRT and SOUL and BODY be kept blameless
    at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrew 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and
    working effectively, and sharper than every
    two-mouthed sword, and piercing as far as
    the division of both SOUL and SPIRIT, of both
    JOINTS and MARROWS (Body), and able to judge of the
    thoughts and intentions of the heart;

    We were all created by God, a TRIUNE God.
    He did say in Genesis 1:26:
    And God said, let US make man in
    OUR image, according to Our likeness;

    Its awesome when the puzzle pieces fit Christians…

  46. I have to add to my last comment at the end that in no way do I believe everyone lives forever in heaven or hell but as Don made clear–believers on the New Heaven and New Earth and unbelievers in the Lake of Fire as final destination.

  47. Jason,

    David V, is saying that we no longer exist after the death of the body or after the second death that occurs after the resurrection. He is not saying that we exist as a spirit.

  48. I have to add another comment–Today means today. Also, 2Cor. 5:8 states “We are confident (meaning confident) yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body(soul separated from body at physical death) and to be present(meaning present ) with the Lord.”

  49. Okay. If we are going to pull out one verse of scripture to support a “theory” of annihilation by using Solomon’s Ecc. 12:7 how come Solomon also says in Ecc. 3:11 “He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.” The theme of Ecc. is that everything is meaningless. Life after death was obscure to Solomon. The book was written to show people the insecurity of all human effort to provide any real meaning, value, etc., to their lives “under the sun” and to tell them to trust in God alone.

  50. To Barb,

    You give a good illustration of Greek Googles with your inserted phrase (Soul separated from body at physical death), I would call this Platonism at its finest.

    Try this: “We are confident yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body (die) and to be present with the Lord(In the resurrection).

  51. NKJV, Luke23:43. And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

    David V. moved the comma, [as do the JW’s] to read “I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

  52. David V,

    That is a very dishonest reading. A more literal reading says “2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.”

    In the same passage it says.

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    If we already are new creatures in the body of Christ, how is that you say we do not exist until the resurrection? Does Christ not exist? Does the Holy Spirit abandon us in death of the Body?

    You do not answer the questions that I bring up and the reason you do not is that you cannot give a reasonable argument from scripture. Don’t think I am going to keep posting your aberrant heretical views if you continue.

    Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
    1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

  53. “If we already are new creatures in the body of Christ, how is that you say we do not exist until the resurrection?”

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall RETURN UNTO GOD who gave it.

    Acts 7:59
    And they stoned Stephen, he calling
    on God, and saying, Lord Jesus, RECEIVE

    Psalm 104:29
    29 You hide Your face, and they are
    troubled; You GATHER THEIR BREATH (Spirit) , and they

    So we know that our Spirit, the breath of life itself, returns to God. Yes? No?

    …And some Resurrection references…

    Daniel 12:13 (reference to the First Resurrection)
    But you go on to the end, for you shall
    REST and STAND for your lot at the END OF DAYS.

    Daniel 12:2 (reference to the First/Second Resurrections)
    And many of the SLEEPING ONES in the
    DUST OF THE GROUND shall AWAKE, some to
    everlasting life, and some to reproaches and
    to everlasting abhorrence.

    John 11:11 (Picture of THE RESURRECTION)
    He said these things. And after this,
    He said to them, Our friend Lazarus has
    FALLEN ASLEEP, but I am going that I may
    AWAKEN him.

    Luke 20:33-37
    Therefore in the RESURRECTION, of which
    of them does she become wife? For the
    seven had her as wife.
    34 And answering, Jesus said to them, The
    sons of this age marry and are given in
    neither marry nor are given in marriage.
    For they are not able to die any more;
    they are equal to angels, and are SONS OF GOD, being SONS OF THE RESURRECTION.
    But that the DEAD ONES ARE RAISED, even
    Moses pointed out at the Bush, when he
    calls the Lord “the God of Abraham, and
    the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

    1 Thess 4:13-16
    But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brothers, about the ONES HAVING FALLEN ASLEEP,
    that you not grieve, as the rest also,
    the ones not having hope.
    For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, also God will also bring with
    For we say this to you in the Word of
    the Lord, that we the living who remain to
    the coming of the Lord will not at all go
    before the ones HAVING FALLEN ASLEEP.
    Because the Lord Himself shall come
    down from Heaven with a commanding
    shout of an archangel’s voice, and with
    God’s trumpet. And the **DEAD ONES IN CHRIST

    1 Cor 15:51-54
    Behold, I tell a mystery to you: we
    SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we shall all be
    changed. In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at
    the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound,
    and the **DEAD ONES WILL BE RAISED** (THE RESURRECTION) incorruptible,
    and WE shall all be changed.
    and this MORTAL one must put on
    IMMORTALITY. But when this corruptible shall put on
    incorruption, and this mortal one shall put
    on immortality, then will come to pass the
    Word, the one having been written, “Death
    was swallowed up in victory.”

    Hebrews 9:27
    And as much as it is reserved to men
    once to die, and AFTER THIS, Judgment

    Do I need to post some more references on the Resurrection? The Resurrection is probably one of the most important future events to take place other than the first coming/ascension of Jesus and His future second coming.


    John 1:23-26
    Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise
    24 Martha said to Him, I know that he
    last day.
    25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection
    and the Life. The one believing into Me,
    though he die, he shall live.
    26 And everyone living and believing into
    Me shall not die to the age, not ever! Do
    you believe this?


  54. To all,

    Annialationist often have a wrong view or definition of eternity,the Greek word (AIONION) Does not mean eternal by definition ,but means AGE or. EON a specific period of time.Now the saved and unsaved will both be resurrected with bodies.
    Mat.25:46 “then they(unsaved) will go away to eternal punishment ,but the righteous to eternal LIFE.This is hell and heaven respectively.The lake of fire is after the millenium,at the white throne judgement ,the unsaved ,reserected to be judged and sentenced .
    The annihilationist misuderstand 1) the consequences of sin 2)the justice of God. 3)the nature of hell.They also don’t realise that the lake of fire is a physical and a spiritual place and not just fire. The unsaved will be cast there BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT.
    As mentioned earlier,the false prophet and anti Christ are both men Rev20:10c says “and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.although their body may burn,the soul and spirit will not.Think about that fellas.

  55. Jason,

    Nobody is denying a resurrection. Your error is that you do not know what the resurrection is. It is not the resurrection of the soul. The resurrection is reuniting the the physical body with your soul. Both will live for eternity.

    One of your own examples points that out. Jesus will bring our souls with him to be united with a physical body at the Rapture. Those in Christ are in the body of Christ, It is not possible that those in the spiritual body of Christ do not exist.

    “For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, also God will also bring with

  56. Don,

    I had actually figured you were too studied on the subject to argue the placement of a comma when any bible scholar will tell you the original text had absolutely no commas anywhere in it. Any translator can choose to put the comma anywhere in the sentence they feel it is applicable.

    Still noting, you nor anyone else, have answered the request for a scripture where it says we go to heaven when we die. Surely I tell you today, that would solve the whole question that I raise.

    Are you not answering the question because you can’t find it in the scriptures?

    That people now die and go to heaven is a dramatic shift from the beliefs of the old testament, don’t you think somewhere it would clearly say that now we don’t actually die when we die, but now go to heaven.

    Do you at least believe these people that are in heaven come back to earth for the resurrection. Do the people in hell come back from hell for the second resurrection, to get sent there again at the judgment?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14

    “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.”

    Here the scripture shows that as Jesus died and rose again, so shall we at his return.

    John 11:25-26

    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

    Even though we die, we shall live at the resurrection. Whoever is living at his returns and believes in him will not die, rather they will be translated at the time of the resurrection.

    Isaiah 57:1-2

    The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.

    Doesn’t this show dead people laying in the ground resting?

  57. I know exactly what the Resurrection is sir, with no disrespect but where did you get this statement from? “Jesus will bring our souls with him to be united with a physical body at the Rapture” This is NOT what the scripture says whatsoever. Here is the entire passage:

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    (This is what you refer to as our “souls”? This is just a reference to those that have died prior to His return, The Resurrection!)

    15 For we say this to you in the Word of
    the Lord, that WE THE LIVING who remain to
    the coming of the Lord WILL NOT ALL GO BEFORE THE ONES HAVING FALLEN ASLEEP.(Once again the ones who have died in Jesus prior to His return, the Resurrection!)

    16 Because the Lord Himself shall come
    down from Heaven with a commanding
    shout of an archangel’s voice, and with

    17 Then we WHO REMAIN ALIVE will be
    caught up together with them (THE ONES HAVING FALLEN ASLEEP PRIOR TO HIS RETURN), in the clouds
    to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And
    so we will always be with the Lord.
    18 So, then, comfort each other with these

    So please expound where you are getting that from?

  58. David V,

    The translators put the comma where it is because that is where they knew it belonged. However, you moved it to be deceptive.
    I gave you the literal interpretation. It is “this day” you will be with me in Paradise”. It certainly is not saying that Jesus was saying “I am telling you this day, that you will be with me in Paradise.” That does not even meet the common sense test.

    I know I and others have already giving you passages that said we will be with the Lord when we die. You also know that there are many OT passages that indicate consciousness for those that die. You simply are blind to everything that you do not want to believe so it seems nobody can help you.

    Hebrews says this:

    Heb 12:1 ¶ Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Don’t know why you cannot understand these things. If you’re made alive in the Lord and born of the Sprit unto new life you simply cannot be non existent when your physical body dies.

    I also already said that people that are now with the Lord will come back with Him and their resurrected bodies will be united with their souls. So, I do not have a clue why you ask. And in the article, I implied that people are removed from Hell at the second Resurrection and then judged according to their works. I am not going to keep repeating myself because you refuse to read.

    Again, I do not know why you and Jason are making arguments for the resurrection when we all agree here that there are two resurrections. It really is a non argument. Quoting scripture about the resurrection might make you sound scriptural but it lends no support at all to your non existence and annihilation conjectures.

    Isaiah 57:1-2 does not prove non existence, in fact it proves just the opposite. The peace they enter is Abraham’s bosom, also called Paradise.

    I think I had about enough of your non existence and annihilation arguments since you cannot prove a negative from the scripture and you simply will not answers the many questions that I brought up to you. You refuse to consider that you could be wrong. Don’t be surprised when any more comments of yours that continue down this line are not posted. I think we all have better things to do than waste our time.

  59. Jason,

    Falling asleep is talking about temporary death of the body not death of the soul.

    No disrespect but I really think you are getting your apples and oranges mixed up. Nobody is saying that are bodies will not be in the grave.

    Your arguments are against David V’s position but you act like you are arguing for his non existence and annihilation conjectures. Very confusing!! You can’t have them return with Jesus and be non existent at the same time.

    Jude “14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
    15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

  60. The little I disagree with in the article presented in the link, is the very last paragraph. I haven’t studied anything that would show that to be true.

  61. Hey don and all,

    I’ve been keeping up,while hanging out at the doctor’s and now hostpotal.Wife’s platelet count 18000. Should be 150 k. To 450 k.

    Great Job Don, in getting to the theological source of the bad doctrine.
    Gobbledygook it is.Don’t think there is much more to add when people refuse to examine things honestly.If they want to remain in that condition,only prayer is left.

    You all have a blessed night,and may God give sight to the blind,and hard of hearing.

    Dave L

  62. It was the very last paragraph of the article.

    I am no way affiliated with the Church of God, I merely shared an article (unaware it was from them), the title of the page said the Good News or some such. I am sure if I investigated them on other doctrines, I would most likely have some that I am not in agreement with.

    Still amazed the people on this site are so bound and determined to affiliate me with a cult. You might as well go ahead and place liar in front of cultist, since you obviously don’t believe me when I tell you different. People like to place labels on people so they can disregard them, which is the likely explanation I have, seeing as I try not to lie and most certainly am not affiliated to any denomination or cult.

    I am just a guy waiting on his king to return and making the best sense out of what I have received in the meantime.

    I believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, I most certainly haven’t rejected that truth, just what I have explained to you here in these comments.

  63. David V,

    I guess if you believe much the same thing as a cult and try to convert people to your thinking you can’t blame people that think you belong to that cult. I suppose you can start your very own cult if you have a few differences with the UCOG. After all, they came out of the WWCOG because of differences.

  64. Don, with your permission, I’d like to address David V’s objections to my last comments. (By the way, Don, your comments are all based on scripture, and they make perfect sense if a person follows standard hermeneutics).

    David V, like Don, I’m having trouble following your line of thinking. As to the Transfiguration being a vision, none of the 4 accounts treat it as a vision, nor do they state it was a vision. In fact, Peter offers to build 3 tabernacles for the Moses, Elijah and Jesus. You don’t build physical things for a vision. As to the fact that they were physically there, if you read Luke’s account of the Transfiguration, the Resurrection, and the Ascension, you’ll find that he mentions two men (not angels, Greek word used is “aner”, which means a male)being present at each event. Those men are Moses and Elijah, who will also be the Two Witnesses in the Tribulation. They were physically there, not just a vision.

    As to Peter saying in Acts 2:29 that David was dead, buried, and in his grave, he obviously was referring to David’s body, not his soul and spirit. Why can I say this? For the same reason Jesus in Matt. 22:23-33 told the Saducees (who, similar to you if I understand correctly, don’t believe in an afterlife) that ” I AM (Not I WAS)the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob … God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Abraham,Isaac, and Jacob had died hundreds of years before Jesus’ time, yet by God saying He is their God in present tense, Jesus says they must still be alive somewhere.

    The thief on the cross was ably addressed by Don and Caitlin, so I won’t.

    On Paul’s trip to the 3rd heaven in II Cor. 12:1-7, he says he didn’t know if he was in his body, or out of it, but it most certainly was not a vision. In v.4, where he says he was “caught up”, the word used in Greek is “harpazo”, the same word used for the Rapture in other passages. In the cases where a person sees a vision in the Bible, like Ezekiel, scripture tells you it was a vision (Ezk.1:1)

    As to the souls under the altar in Rev. 6:9,10, you never addressed the fact that they are there in heaven, and not only conscious, but they also speak and are quoted directly.

    Finally, you said that the Bible should directly say something about going to heaven when we die. The fact is that it does, you just won’t accept it. As Don and others have pointed out more than once, II Cor. 5:6-8 specifically tell us about what happens to a believer at physical death :”Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and willing rather, to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”. This also lines up with what Paul wrote in Philippians 1:21-24 “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this will mean fruit for my labor, yet what I shall choose, I know not. For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire TO DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, which is far better. Nevertheless, to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”
    Jesus is currently in heaven in a glorified physical body, and when we die, our soul and spirit go to be with Him where He is to await the time when we will get our new glorified physical body like His (minus the scars). That is what happens at the Rapture. Our body has to stay in the grave at death because it can’t go to heaven due to it housing our sin nature. That’s why we have to get a new glorified body with no sin nature.

    As I have stated earlier, there has to be heaven, hell, the lake of fire, and a conscious life after physical death for all, both good and bad, because God will be glorified by it (Phil.2:10,11). If annhilation were true, the lost could thumb their nose at God as a last act before they were obliterated. As it is, the wicked go into eternal punishment, God Word is vindicated and verified, and what He said would happen to them does happen. So, even in their rebellion and wickedness, they are glorifying God as they suffer their eternal punishment.

    David V, I hope this helps clarify my position, and that it helps you understand what the Bible says about life after physical death for both the believer and the unbeliever.

  65. Paul,

    Thank you for the thoughtful and well worded reply. I have to make this one correction.

    Matthew 17

    1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter , James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart , 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold , there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt , let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake , behold , a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said , This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased ; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid . 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said , Arise , and be not afraid . 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying , Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    You will see in the last verse that Jesus does indeed call it a vision.

    I realized you wouldn’t be able to find a place in the bible where it say we will go to heaven when we die when I asked the question. Like you, I haven’t been able to find it either.

    Familiar with all of the arguments as I was in a like system and have heard and read it all before, it left me with two many questions and ideas that were obvious, to me anyway, being read into the scriptures. Saying they something that don’t actually, because you are trying to deceive, rather it is what you believe because it is what you have been told. I call this Greek Goggles.

    I could go on and continue arguing my points in counter to yours, at least until Don cuts me off, but I won’t.

    Thank you all for the conversation and sharing of ideas.

  66. David V, Tells me that he does not believe most of UCOG doctrine found on that link. He meant to say he just agrees with their views on what happens to people when they die.

    I think it is time to put this baby to bed.

  67. David V.,

    The word vision used in mat.17:9 is (horama)(3705). Meaning (that which is seen) or (a spectacle,sight)
    This is one of the comon errors people make,is that they do not want to know the truth.They do not know how to study for themselves,and ignore context,or plain meanings,ie common sense .I have had others ingnore that “no man” can pluck them from my fathers hand,and that quote applies to them too.Yet still they believe salvation can be lost or gained by there good works.These people have no desire to learn,or are ever learning,but unable to come to a knowledge of the truth.Those who are truly saved ,want to know Gods word and will for their lives.They will study to make sure they understand rightly.Those who refuse to examine the evidence,only harden their heart’s and will be bound in their sin.Words have meanings,but some who lead others away,are the ones corrupting the pure Word .Like Don,it’s time to dust off out Sandler and move on.

    Dave L

  68. David L,

    Definition from Bible Study Tools.

    Horama: that which is seen, spectacle, a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

    Strongs: 3705, a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

    Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708 /horá?, “to see, spiritual and mentally”) – a vision (spiritual seeing), focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing).

    I agree with you, a common error is people not wanting to know the truth, but brother, that just ain’t me.

  69. David, all the sources you use are perverted to support the perverted views cults espouse.You see what you want to and proof text all your presupositions. The blind leading the blind .But that’s ok,there are lots of blind people,your in good company.

  70. Thanks David V,

    It really hits the nail on the head. The emergent mystical heretics are doing the same thing with the Word of God that the Jewish pharisees did and this continued with some claiming to be Christians in the early Church. Today, putting mystical meanings on passages that were given to be taken literally is becoming very popular again in Christendom. Many do not understand what Paul was really saying in his correction to those that called themselves apostles and opposed his teaching such as in 2nd Corinthians. This article and the link I posted in my last comment helps explain that.

  71. Don, re the prince of the air is scripture referring to the first heaven-our immediate atmosphere? I used your search engine and was unable to find the answer. If Satan is still in Heaven to be thrown to earth soon, which heaven is God alowing satan to hang out in? I can’t imagine Father allowing satan in 3rd Heaven since Yeshua was crucified.
    Thank you.

  72. Dorrene,

    I think scripture teaches that Satan and the angels still report to God and those meetings probably takes place where God dwells. Satan probably hangs out in the first and second Heaven. He is the prince of the air because He patrols the earth.

    The Kingdom has not yet been given to Jesus although He took away the authority of the Devil over His people. This happens in the Father’s timing because many given to Jesus must be saved so they can be among the bride of the King. That is the reason for the delay.

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