Koenig’s perspectives on Bible prophecy and world issues Mar 2014

On March 13, 2014 · 102 Comments

In my article of Feb 10th, about the coming foreign wars, I said to keep your eyes opened for Russia invading Ukraine after the Olympics. At that time, our State Department was saying that Russia would not invade Ukraine. It should not surprise anyone that this Obama administration would be wrong. They have been wrong on everything.

It was not crystal ball gazing on my part that led me to suggest that Russia would invade Ukraine. Voices in the Russian Congress were telling Putin in early February that he needed to take the ethnic Russian areas of Eastern Ukraine within a few weeks or they would be forever lost to the West. Putin obviously could do nothing at that time because his security forces were tied up protecting the Olympics. So, I surmised that any action by Russia about Ukraine would take place shortly after the Olympics was over.

I also knew that Putin has stated that he wants to be the leader of a new Eurasian Union. The Western Ukrainian protests to overthrow a democratically elected pro-Russian leader in the Ukraine and a weak U.S. President just made it very easy for Putin to start the Russian expansion into Ukraine.

The protests started in Kiev in Western Ukraine because the Ukrainian President rejected an economic alignment with the EU and made an economic alignment with Russia. Eastern and Southeastern Ukraine have many ethnic Russians and most people speak Russian and are pro-Russian.  As the protests in Western Ukraine gathered more support, it was obvious that Russia would somehow get involved.

Suddenly the protests turned violent and scores of people were shot and killed. The Western Ukraine people blamed the pro-Russian Ukraine President for the shootings and there were actions to remove him from office. He fled Kiev to the East.

Who was really to blame for the deaths depends upon who you want to believe. There are many different spins on this which you will find all over the Internet. Some are saying that the President forces shot the protesters. Others are saying that neo-Nazies supported by Neocons in the West killed the protesters to make martyrs for the government overthrow. Still others are saying that Russian agents make it appear like the neo-Nazies did the killing and this was all orchestrated by Russia so that they could invade Ukraine.

Whatever the case about who did the shooting, I am sure that both Russia and elements of the West were, and still are, involved in this crisis trying to make it turn out toward their advantage. The Ukrainian people are just pawns in a re-emerging Cold War chess match.

Russia has invaded Crimea. That Ukrainian province and it is now under Russian military control. The people in this province will soon vote to either secede and join with Russia or to stay in the Ukraine. The outcome of the vote is obvious, Crimea was part of Russia until Khrushchev gave it to the Ukraine as a gift. Crimea will vote to join back with Russia and there is very little that the West can do about it.

After that, the real question is will Russia just leave it there, or will they invade all the way to Kiev and reinstate the democratically elected pro-Russian President? I would not rule it out. What Putin will actually do might depend upon how much Obama pisses off Putin. I think at the very least, the country eventually will be split. If that happens, then the question becomes what will Western Ukrainians and the West do about Russia’s expansion into the Ukraine?

I suspect another cold war is brewing between the West and the new Russia-China alliance. Gog is rising. There will be an Eurasian union much like the old Soviet Union.

Meanwhile, in our own hemisphere, the socialist dictator of oil rich Venezuela has brought the nation to poverty. Resistance against the socialist dictator of Venezuela is being put down by deadly force and the Obama administration says and does nothing. The Socialist MSM in our nation is also silent.

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The debt of the world is now 3.13 times the annual GWP product. The interest on this debt alone is about 12 trillion a year. That means that about 1/7 comes off the top of everything earned in the world just to pay the interest owed or world debt will increase even more each year as it is doing.

Think about it. This is like you earning $1000 a week but having to pay $150 of that to just cash your paycheck. However, you need $1100 a month to pay your bills. Therefore, you need to borrow $250 more each month to make ends meet if you continue the same standard of living. You must continue to borrow 25 percent more than you earn each month and you will continue to go deeper in debt. That is where most of the world is at now.

At some point, nations caught in this debt spiral must find some way to get out of it. That can be done by devaluing the currency and paying the bills with currency that is worth far less or not paying the bills at all. One brings hyperinflation that destroys wealth in the nation, and the other brings the end of anyone investing in that nation. That brings high unemployment and depression that makes the nation poorer. Debt never makes debtor nations richer. The only rational solution for people of any nation to remain prosperous is to pay off their debts.

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There are some interesting developments in apostate Christian religion. Kenneth Copeland is one of the top gurus of the Word of Faith heretical movement. One of the speakers at the leadership conference that Copeland was hosting was a Charismatic Anglican Bishop named Tony Palmer. Palmer is working with the Vatican toward ecumenism. He came to this conference with a video message for the conference that came directly from the Pope. You can see a short comment and the video at this link – Pope’s message to the Copeland leadership conference. What is amazing, is that I could not find much critical information on the Internet about what happened at the conference. At least not coming from the most well-known discernment ministries. Maybe that will still come.

The message from Pope Francis and Bishop Tony Palmer was mostly about Christian unity. The claim was that Catholics now agree that people are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works. They emphasized the “unto good works”statement as if this addition resolves all the protests that the reformers had and the differences that separate them.

Protestants claim that Catholics add a salvation of works, but the Pope is suggesting that there is no difference. It is all semantics. Therefore, the Pope suggests that the reason for Martin Luther’s protest is resolved so there should be no more division. They say there should no longer be any more protest (Protestants). Therefore, we are now all Catholic brothers.

What the Pope and Bishop Palmer conveniently left out of their messages was that there were 95 protests posted by Martin Luther, not just one. Even on the point of salvation by grace through faith, the Catholic Church is being very deceptive. The Roman Catholic Church puts a different meaning on grace then do the Protestants, a different meaning on faith, and even a different meaning “unto good works”.

In Protestantism, grace is unmerited favor from God. There is nothing that you can do to earn grace. In Roman Catholicism grace from God is earned through keeping the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

To clarify this point – in order to be saved in Roman Catholicism, the grace to be saved comes from observing the sacrament of Water Baptism, the sacrament of Holy Communion and the Sacrament of Confirmation. Then to stay in the grace of God, you must stay free of mortal sin which you do through keeping the Sacrament of Confession to a Roman Catholic Priest. So, for the Roman Church to say that salvation comes by grace, they are really saying that you must obey what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about how you get into grace and stay in grace, or you will be going to Hell.

In Protestantism, faith is trust in Jesus Christ alone; in Roman Catholicism, faith is trusting in the infallible doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. In reformed or evangelical Protestantism, good works are works that are led by the Holy Spirit; in Catholicism, good works can be ritual or acts of humanistic social justice. For example, saying rote prayers like Hail Mary’s are good works in Catholicism and supporting evil Marxist social justice redistribution of the wealth schemes can also be good works .

So don’t be deceived, even though the Roman Church now claims that man is saved by grace, through faith, unto good works, the meaning they put on this statement is entirely different from what true biblical Protestants believe.

If you watched the video, it was obvious that these Word of Faith leaders bought into the bishop and the Pope’s deception. That does not surprise me. The meaning of salvation by grace through faith unto good works is not all that much different in Word of Faith. I may have this a bit wrong, but I think Word of Faith teaches the state of grace is something that you get after believing and you are baptized. Then to keep that state of grace you need to stay confessed up and persevere until the end or you are on your way to Hell.

In Word of Faith, you must have faith in your own faith to believe and you need to have more faith in your faith to get the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Word of Faith also believes like do the Catholics, that you can fall from salvation grace by sinning.

So, like the Catholics, Word of Faith “grace” is something earned by keeping methodologies and theologies and persevering in the state of grace until you die. If Word of Faith people sin, they believe that they must confess up. If they feel that they fell away, they must be saved again to stay out of Hell. That is why many of these people get saved over and over, and just like the Catholics they never can be assured of their salvation. In the final analysis, salvation for those in both theologies depends more on what they do in their life than what Jesus Christ did.

In Word of Faith, faith is not just trusting in Jesus, it is something you conjure up by believing whatever you say. Faith gets the Holy Spirit (or God force) to create what you say or believe (It is very much like New Age or Christian Science). Likewise, “works” in the Word of Faith movement can be using your faith to believe that your words will come to pass. For example, praying in tongues is good works of the Spirit, wealth and prosperity comes by the works of keeping spiritual laws like tithing, and healing comes from your own words of faith.

Now you see why the Catholic Church and Word of Faith can agree on a false gospel since the true gospel is taught in neither. Word of Faith theology is a convoluted theology to say the least. It is nowhere taught in the Bible without resorting to twisting scriptures out of grammatical and historical context.

If Word of Faith leaders actually believed the real gospel of the Bible, they would not have praised God for the Papal baloney that they all scarfed down without discerning the source. Copeland was ecstatic about getting this message from the Pope. He then “prayed” for the Pope in tongues because human words would not do. Copeland made sure that he prayed his tongues gibberish into the microphone, but none of these top Charismatic leaders dared to interpret Copeland’s gibberish because that presumption might put words into the mouth of their own Pope, and that is not acceptable.

You have to know what goes on in the Charismatic Movement to fully understand what I am suggesting. These people only presume to have a prophecy or an interpretation of tongues if their interpretation is very low risk or a pre-approved message.

The Pope’s message inferred that nobody can determine where the blame should be placed over the reformation protests. What an insult to the tens of millions of people who were killed by the Roman Church. They would not submit to the heretical “Holy Roman Empire” and its papacy because they believed the Roman Catholic church doctrine was antichrist. They died for the true gospel but the Pope cannot find who is to blame? It is the Catholic church that killed these Christians and it is the Popes that condemned Protestants to Hell with their “infallible” decrees, but Pope Francis cannot find who is to blame? By the way, the Roman Catholic Church have not, and cannot, rescind the damnation’s that these prior Popes made, because of claims of Papal infallibly.

It is very fitting that a leadership conference of Word of Faith Harlots would be addressed by the chief Roman Harlot, because all true Christians should know that all these Harlots will unite under this chief Harlot at the time of the end. And they will do it in the very name of “Christian unity” but will fulfill the prophecy of the Harlot of Revelation Chapter 17.

Unity among these Harlots is unity on their error that Jesus actually prayed for there to be unity among all the apostates that fell away from the one true faith. This Harlot unity has nothing to do with the prayer of Jesus that all believers given to Him by the Father be united in one spiritual Body with Him. Those that have departed from the foundational doctrines of the Bible are unifying in the body of the Apostate Harlot, they are not unifying in the body of Christ.

This is important, because it now looks like many of the Charismatic roads are leading people back to the Roman Harlot, just as some of the non Pentecostal New Evangelicals are also doing. Apostasy was foretold in the Bible to happen in the last days. We are now seeing the apostasy that we were warned about exploding everywhere. Those expecting the soon return of Christ should not be surprised. It is very revealing that all these Harlots on earth sees themselves ruling on earth before any physical return of Jesus.

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You might be interested about how some of the New Evangelical leaders get their books to the top of the New York Times best seller list. Mark Driscoll, of Mars Hill church, used $210,000 of his church funds to pay a marketing firm to buy and deceptively distribute his new book. This article reports on the story of how Mark Driscoll bought his way to the top of the best sellers list. Apparently about 11,000 copies were bought in a deceptive way that makes it look like regular people across the nation were buying Driscoll’s book. I don’t think I will help promote Driscoll’s new book by giving out its name here.

After the scam was disclosed, Mars Hill church leadership made a statement to the press. I get the impression from what was said, that the leaders at Mars Hill had only minor concern about Driscoll’s methods. They say they get the money from the book sales anyway, and they claim that others do the same thing to get up on the best seller list. (Apparently, they will not allow him to do that again because he got caught.) How would they even know that others do it unless they already knew that others were doing it? It seems to me that Mars Hill leadership was in cahoots with Mark Driscoll all along. Further, just because everyone else is doing what is not ethical, does not justify pastors to do the same unethical deceptive practices. Ain’t postmodern rationalism in Christendom wonderful?

So, if you can just come up with a quarter million to buy your way to the top of the New York Times best sellers list, you also can become a world-famous author. And buying your own books to do that is acceptable as long as you don’t get caught. Any wonder why certain Christian authors always jump to the top? I guess the end justifies the means with these postmodern relativistic “Christian” leaders. Everything in these new evangelical mega churches is about marketing. They are selling the world a product, but their product is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Many Christians will be going to see The Son of God movie. I don’t know many specifics about the context of the movie, but I do know that a New Age Catholic named Roma Downey produced this film and is promoting this film through “Christian” leaders that should know better.

Roma Downey has a master’s degree in Spiritual Psychology (new age). These “Christian leaders” expect someone who is pantheistic, that does not believe the true gospel herself, to give people the true gospel of salvation in a movie? Downey believes that all humans are divine beings and she believes that all things are part of God. Also, keep in mind that the consultants used for this film have their own unique seeker gospels. Someone ought to tell the church leaders that are promoting this film, that false gospels do not lead people to salvation.

I have to ask why pastors rent theaters to tell the story that is already told in the Bible. The pastors should be better equipped to give a more accurate account to their congregation than some New Age Catholic produced movie. It really seems that pastors believe that most people in their congregations were never even told the basic story about Jesus in the four gospels. Now why is that? I hear that there is no true salvation message given in this movie, yet pastors want unbelievers in their congregations to see it?

I just heard some discussion of this film coming from Justin Peters on Worldview Weekend. He saw the film. He said the film contains blasphemy, does not give the gospel and no Christian should be taking people to this film to try to evangelize them. Justin Peters part I discussion of that film is found here and part II is here. (I do not know how long these audio links will be available.)

Marsha West has some very interesting information and perspectives on The Son of God film and she has many links that should tell you everything you will ever need to know.

If you must see this movie, here are some questions you might want to ask yourself. The questions are the list complied by Dr. Randy White for when he sees and critiques this movie. I will bet that many people will like this film, but very few if any will be saved by this film or come to your church because they saw it. So what is the point?

I do not know why Christians rely on pagans and heretics as if their accounts of the Bible will be biblical? Noah, is a fine case in point, that film gives a false God and a false Noah. However, that does not stop “Christians” from going to it. The ticket sales will just encourage other such blasphemous and heretical films to be made. Do you “Christians” that see these films really think that you should be aiding in the pagan effort to distort Biblical truth?

The Church of Osteen was robbed of  $600,000 from last weekend collection. The collection was in the safe. “Safe” in a church building full of unbelievers is an oxymoron. Think about this. They have more money on hand than most banks but they probably have less security then your own home office. The safe combo probably was something like 0, 0, 0, so as to not tax anyone’s brain. This will not cost the Church of Osteen anything since it is insured, but it will help raise the insurance premiums for everyone else now that copycats are going to find churches easy pickings.

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This website was down at least once last week for a couple of hours due to a web host server problem. As a result, I now started using Cloudflare. It puts a cached copy of my files on the cloud on its own servers all over the world. So, if the web host is down you still should get the file from the cloud cache. The files also should now load faster and Cloudflare has its own security features to protect the site from the bad guys.

At some point I might look into a mirror site so I will have my articles on more than one web host and on more than one server. There is a lot of nasty stuff attacking all sites on the Internet. Website security is another oxymoron.

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 Don Koenig founded www.thepropheticyears.com website in 1999 after almost thirty years of independent study on the Bible and learning from many astute teachers within Christendom. Don created his website to write about Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and his Christian worldviews. Don wrote a free Revelation commentary ebook in 2004 named "The Revelation of Jesus Christ Through The Ages". The World and Church and Bible Prophecy section of this website was started in 2007.


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102 Responses to “Koenig’s perspectives on Bible prophecy and world issues Mar 2014”

  1. JoeNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    Thanks for sharing this information, esp. the Copeland/Pope conference and the links to Justin Peters’ reaction to the movie. I had a bad feeling about the movie, and this only confirms why.

  2. Crimea is too important for Putin to relinquish. When this first happened I said to my wife Putin will enter into a shooting war if need be.
    I doubt if Europe thinks the Ukraine to be important enough to go to war over and Obama will prefer to play golf.

  3. David RoyeNo Gravatar says:

    Brings to mind Hebrews 10:19-25. What a fascinating time we are living in when we can see scripture revealed to us almost on a daily basis. So, let’s “stir up one another to love and good works” while we have the time. We still have so much left to do, I know I do! Family and friends may not believe that there is no other way to God except through Jesus Christ, but I need to be sure every one of them has heard that message, and soon!

  4. KateNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don, best explanation in a nut shell of faith vs works salvation! I grew up fundamental Baptist and always heard security of the believer but now I can explain it much better. Thanks for all the hours you put in this valuable site. Wish it had a Facebook link so more people could read this.

  5. AnnaNo Gravatar says:

    Oh that Christians would shun the world’s entertainment in general and especially their blasphemous Bible narratives (if they can be called that.) Philippians 4:8, my brethren.
    Why can’t they tell the difference between the Hollywood story and the Bible story? Perhaps they need to get into their Bibles more….Thank you for the info and the links.

  6. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Kate,

    Why would more people read it if it had a Facebook link? Most people that find my site do it because they are already aware of this website or because they found one of my articles on topics they were looking into through a search engine search. It seems to be that posting my articles on Facebook would just be duplication. By the way, anyone can put up to a link to this site from their Facebook page. There also is a share button on the bottom of each post. I really don’t see how my joining Facebook or any social networking site would change anything.

  7. Spot on analysis on the Roman Catholic church in its absolute dependence on what I call “Catholic voodoo” in its incessant rules regulations and out and out blasphemies it holds its practicioners so spellbound. Mind you, that just came from the keyboard of a 58 year old former(Praise Jesus) catholic schooled in both the Baltimore and VII cathecisims, as well as catholic high school and college. I wouldn’t go back to that for anything, but the new cheerleader for ecuminisism is really trying to rope EVERYBODY who claims the title of Christian, as well as any other ism there is out there. As for the movie, is anyone really surprised at the response of both the secular and “Christian” worlds? If I hear one more person use the argument that this movie, as well as Noah the Invincible, will at least get people to start thinking about Jesus, all I can say to them(in as Christian a way as I can) “YOU MORONS!” Exactly WHAT Jesus are they referring to? It sure aint the one that was born from a virgin, was crucified, died, was buried, and ROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, paying for the sins of the world.

  8. Man do I love to read this. I was taking heat for my stance against the “Son of God” movie. Here is what I had to write my small group at church because they were thinking I was too critical:

    THE PROBLEM IS THE MOVIE IS GIVING A PLATFORM FOR A WOLF IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING TO GO INTO OUR CHURCHES AND PRESENT A FALSE VIEW OF THE GOSPEL!

    God has called all believers in Christ to be discerning of the teaching they are receiving. When you read the New Testament believers are warned over and over again about false teachers coming in to deceive. How do you think a false teacher will come into the church? By blatant lies or subtle deceit? Jesus even says in Matthew 24 there will be a time when false christs and false prophets will arise leading astray the elect if that was possible. Believers need to read the Bible from cover to cover and study the context and author’s intent of the book holding fast to the word of truth!

    My primary concern is that there are believers embracing the producers as if they are believers (Downey and Burnett have been given the stage with Rick Warren – Saddleback Church, Beth Moore – Women of Faith, Jerry Falwell Jr. – my alma mater Liberty University, The Passion Conferences). It is not hard to do research on Roma Downey and her new age Catholic mystic background. Here are some of the sources straight from the horses mouth:

    http://www.loyaltytoyoursoul.com (read the praise section written by Roma Downey about this new age book written by her mentors)

    http://www.universityofsantamonica.edu (Roma received her masters degree in Spiritual Psychology in 2010 – read what this degree teaches)

    Look at the back cover of the book Practical Praying by John Edwards (John is a psychic medium who believes he can talk with the dead and he mixes Catholicism with his teaching. Roma takes part in the CD portion of this book)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/…/09/gIQATJNT1Q_video.html (interview with Sally Quinn who hates Biblical Christianity, hear Roma’s pantheistic view of God)

    Now do some research on your own about the New Age and their view of God and Jesus. You will see many use God, Jesus, grace, faith, belief, renewal, even Scripture but it is twisted from the truth.

    The danger is when people equate Roma Downey’s new age universalistic view of faith with true Christianity many will be lead to believe the modern day mantra “we really all believe the same thing, just love one another and all will be good in the end”.

    I did a little research on how do new agers present Jesus and here is a cut and paste job from one website. You will see all the right words at the beginning but continue to read until the end

    “I remember as a teenager reading the book In His Steps, by Charles Sheldon. It was the moving story of a pastor and certain members of his congregation who decided that for one year they would walk in the footsteps of Jesus.

    They would ask themselves, “What would Jesus do?” Only then would they take action. And no one would monitor anyone else’s conscience.

    By the end of the year, the church and the lives of the congregation had been turned upside down and then right side up to the glory of God and the fulfillment of gifts and graces they would never have imagined possible. So wondrous was the presence of Jesus and the action of the Holy Spirit among them!

    I had always tried to be very close to Jesus, so I decided to try this for myself. I remember how blissful it was, and how difficult it was!

    Many times I would pray to Jesus and I would know exactly what Jesus would do—but I didn’t want to do it. So then I would have to pray to Jesus to help me want to do what he would do.

    I think that was my first conscious surrender of some ego. And to my great relief, Jesus did answer my prayer. During that time, I certainly learned a lot about my ego and a lot about surrender.

    Each time we surrender some of our human resistance and move forward on our spiritual path, we come a little bit closer to becoming who we really are.

    As we continue to walk in the footsteps of the Master, we begin to step out of our human cocoon, the trappings of our human doings. We begin to reveal more and more of our divine identity until one day we may fly free as butterflies into the sunshine of the presence of our God.

    Ultimately, as we transcend the human and become spiritually one in soul and Spirit, we may be graced to return to oneness in the cosmic ocean of divine love even as we preserve our unique individuality.”

    Is that the gospel we believe?!

  9. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Michael in VA,

    Good input. You almost lost me on the cut and paste part but I edited the format to make what you quoted more obvious.

    I wrote an article about those that think they can live as a Christian by just saying to themselves “What would Jesus do”

    What would Jesus do?

    Obviously we cannot do what Jesus did, and He does not ask us to try to do that.

  10. Thanks for the edit. I just wanted to emphasize that new agers will use some “christianese” but mean totally different things. Satan is so subtle in his deception. While researching Downey I find it interesting that it is hard to find any interviews actually asking pointed questions about her doctrine and faith.

  11. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Michael in Va,

    Yeah, it is all very subtitle and if people in our churches do not know their Bible they are going to be deceived by these wolves acting as Christians and being promoted by “Christian” leadership.

    It does not surprise me that most people in small groups in our churches would think these moves are advancing our cause. Even the pastors believe that and teach that. However, nothing could be further from the truth. All this is really making the gospel of the Harlot to become acceptable in our churches.

    You spoke the truth to your small group, but did anyone really hear?

  12. MartinNo Gravatar says:

    Thank you very much for that article! Great article! I just wanted to add that Word Of Faith’s founder and leader in Sweden (it is called Word Of Life there) Ulf Ekman converted to Catholicism this week. He was the one who established most charismatic churches in Bulgaria and in Russia right after the fall of Communism there, I was once part of one of those churches. They teach exactly what you have pointed out.

  13. KateNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don, sorry I wasn’t clear. I was asking for a way for me to share on Facebook your article. I didn’t see the share link , thanks for pointing it out. God bless!

  14. dettemcNo Gravatar says:

    Don, I would like some advice. We stopped going to “church” about a year ago. My family and I were attending a Missionary Baptist (independent) church in a small town. We thought that the apostasy would not reach there? We were wrong, sadly. Even though leaving that church was a good thing, I (we) are struggling with whether or not to find another church to attend. It seems as if this “falling away” is everywhere!!! So, what should we do? We have daily bible study here at home and evening devotions, but, we are hungry for fellowship. We live in a very remote area and the nearest largish town with churches is 40 miles away. It seems as if even the independent Baptists are a mess. When I read the Bible I get the sense that these churches are not true biblical churches and to go to one is error. I am searching for insight and would appreciate your thoughts.

  15. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi dettemc,

    Most of us are having the same problem. Sometimes believers just will not find a biblical church in their area anymore. If your having home studies you might invite others, or go to a home group for fellowship. Christian fellowship takes place when two or more true believers get together for any reason.

    I am not telling people not to attend church because even most apostate churches usually have a small core group of true believers but you do have to seek these Bible believers out to find Christian fellowship. Trying to reform a local church when most attending cannot discern correct Christians doctrine from counterfeit substitutes is just not going to happen.

  16. DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Where can Christians go to hear the true Gospel of Jesus Christ preached? It’s definitely not Joel Osteen or those like him who deny Christ.

  17. dettemcNo Gravatar says:

    Thank you Don,
    I really, really appreciate your website. My husband and I are avid readers. Your website is one of the components of our weekend discussions. We are praying that the Lord will bring a retired preacher to our area again. God did this once about 10 years ago. The man he brought to our area was a wonderful teacher. Maybe the Lord will see fit to bring a godly man our way again. In the meantime, we are looking for true believers to study with…they are far and few but God says that He has preserved a remnant. Thank you for being a voice in the wilderness for all of us.

  18. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David

    Here is one place

    http://www.gty.org/

  19. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    We are now in the time of apostasy. False teachers everywhere. False prophets everywhere. False pastors everywhere. I have now decided to become a “One Man Revival.” I will believe and obey God no matter who disagrees with me. I will still love everyone. But I will pray for everyone I meet to truly come to Jesus and follow Him. And as the Holy Spirit leads I will discuss the truth of God’s gospel to everyone. I will be peaceable – but not compromising.
    It is possible to stand for the truth – but not be a jerk about it. Disagree agreeably. But disagree and carefully, peaceably explain why you view things the way you do. But make sure your stance is biblical. Otherwise you are part of the problem and not the solution. God bless you all.

    And remember “Slanderers will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Cor 6:9-11. In other words. Speak the truth. But speak it in love and with a real genuine desire to help people to escape the sin that is enslaving the world. God bless you all.

  20. DonNo Gravatar says:

    I mostly agree Mike,

    Christians are not going to save this country, but we will reach some for Christ in this nation if the true gospel of salvation in Christ is delivered.

    On the other hand, The passage in 1 Cor 6:9-11 is not saying that Christians that happen to slander will not inherent the Kingdom of God. Paul was really telling the Corinthians not to be acting like the heathen lawbreakers living in the flesh because they will not inherent the kingdom of God in their fallen sinful condition. Also, these practices will not take place in the coming Kingdom among the Saints.

    Paul clearly implies in verse 11 that the Corinthian believers have already inherited the Kingdom because they are washed from their sins, justified by the blood of Christ and by the Spirit of God.

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

  21. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    In the bible version you quoted “revilers” is sometimes translated “slanderers” (in other versions). Paul in his day had many people slander and revile him and his gospel message (as well as other true gospel workers). I believe that is part of what Paul meant in 1 Cor 6:9-11. Slandering (reviling) is just one of the (fleshly) sins that can send one to hell (unless one genuinely repents in time).

  22. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    Obviously you think that Christians that sin certain sins can lose their salvation. That is what I thought you were implying and that is why I commented on what you said.

    Paul mentioned several sins in that passage not just one. Believers do not lose there salvation because they do not repent of some specific sin in time, as you said.

    That would mean that time and chance determine our salvation rather than God. It is like saying your son is no longer your son if he does something that is not pleasing to you. If those born into the Body of Christ could send themselves to Hell, then some of the children the Father gave Jesus would be lost. That would make God less than sovereign and dependent on our own human actions of repentance. Heaven then, would be filled with people that ultimately saved themselves because they confessed their sins in time. And Hell would have those that untimely got hit by a streetcar.

    Your theology simply is not taught in the scriptures.

  23. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    I am not going to post arguments or links to those teaching conditional security. It is heretical, and this is not going to be the place to take away hope from people. People that knock once saved always saved theology often cannot discern the difference between easy belivism formulas that pressure people to make a confession of faith and genuine conversions into the Body of Christ. No true believer that is born into the Body of Christ can be lost. Jesus cannot deny Himself.

    “Christians” that think they can be lost have no security of their salvation at all. Salvation depends on what they do and not what Christ did. I suggest that you read Romans chapter 8.

    For more information on this topic I wrote this article.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/How%20one%20is%20saved.htm

  24. If the belief that one can lose one’s salvation produces fear, that belief must stem from ignorance of God and of his word. There is hope for the one who fears, for ignorance can be overcome.

    If there is no fear then such a belief can only stem from SELF satisfaction (self-righteousness). Self-righteousness is a greater barrier to the truth than fear.

  25. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Question:
    If OSAS is true why should I fear God?
    If I am now sinning like the devil, where no matter how perverse, or gross, or heinous my sin such as murder, adultery, rape, child molesting, violence, robbery, etc. why should I repent of these sins if I was once validly saved (truly repented and truly gave my heart to Jesus at some early time of my life) but went back into committing these gross sins? Please answer me.
    OSAS is not consistent with the Bible. OSAS is not following Jesus. If OSAS were true I could go back to committing the gross sins above.(After truly repenting at an earlier time.)

  26. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    This is your last post on this topic, I already said that I am not going to provide a platform for people that believe in the heresy of conditional salvation and I mean it.

    I will only answer your question because many make the same wrong assumptions about Christians that believe in eternal security as you do.

    If you are living like the Devil, you most likely were never saved in the first place. If one were not in awe of God, fear His judgment, knowing that they are sinful, and turn to God’s mercy (Jesus) for salvation, they were never saved at all.

    Many claim that they got saved because they were pressured to make a confession of faith. Recited words do not save people. You must actually trust in Jesus for salvation. So these counterfeit converts fall away from “Christianity” and some people like you want to say they lost their salvation. No. they never got saved in the first place or they would never have departed from the faith.

    Those born of the spirit are a new creation in Christ and those born of the Spirit cannot love living like the Devil. It is against their new nature. The Spirit wars against the flesh, that battle is called the process of sanctification. For everyone that process is quite different and unique. You do not know the baggage others carry because of what happened to them in the flesh. With your view, those that lived trouble free lives are more likely to be Christian that someone that went through hell on earth before they were saved. Some people just have a much more hard time getting their flesh out of the way.

    You cannot judge salvation by temporal circumstances that people are going through. Those born of the Spirit continually war with the flesh that all Christians drag around. John told Christians how they can know that they are saved.

    A Christian will not continue committing gross sins as if there were no consequences because first, it would be against his spiritual nature and he would be miserable. Second, because God might remove him from the earth if he was bringing dishonor to the Body of Christ. Remember that Paul delivered up people in grave sin to Satan so that their body would be destroyed so that their spirit would be saved. And third, Christians that love living in sin will lost rewards that they could have had. The Holy Spirit will not do works through those in gross sin. Yet, scripture indicates that those that build on the House of God with common material will still be saved, but as through fire.

    So the arguments against eternal salvation for the believer are simply straw men arguments that usually come from legalistic people that think that they no longer sin. And if you do sin, like we all do, what makes you think your own sins do not disqualify you? You think you can judge what sins are more grave sins and which are less grave but who make you the judge of your brother?

    With those believing in conditional security, it is always the sins of others that send people to Hell. Or else they are getting re-saved over and over again. These people continually go from a guilt depression of having fallen from grace to a false confidence high because their salvation is based on human emotions rather than what Jesus did. There is no such practice found in New Testament teaching?

    They are very much like the Catholics who feel more Christian after they confess their sins to a priest and get absolution. Then they go right back into their sinful habits and the high wears off and they then go on the next guilt trip.

    Salvation comes by trusting belief in Jesus, not by staying sinless. I guess you never did read the article that I linked to in my last comment to you or you would know that.

  27. mike peraltaNo Gravatar says:

    What happened to the fear of the Lord scriptures? None of my theology was in that.

  28. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    It was not posted because it was not relevant to anything that we were discussing.
    You just sent me a list of scriptures. I don’t see why I should just post scripture verses that you cut and pasted that has nothing to do with anything we were talking about? Nobody is saying that people should not fear the Lord.

  29. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    It was in response to “Brian From Oz” posting.

  30. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    I really don’t see the connection of your list of scriptures to anything that Brian said, and if you were responding to Brian than you should have addressed your comment to Brian.

    Your other comments will not get posted because you are not getting the message. I am not posting positions that you think supports your heretical conditional security theology. You mislead people with your views. Some might think that you have a reasonable argument through your rationalizations and human experience but it denies the clear teachings from Paul about eternal salvation to the believer. You also will not read Roman 8 or my article as I suggested so I see no point in wasting my time with someone with a closed mind.

    I suggest you comply with my commenting policy if you expect future comments to be posted.

  31. Dorrene MNo Gravatar says:

    Don:What did you think of the Gospel of John movie that was released about a month before the Passion of Christ I think about 2004? I purchased the Gospel of John and when Iwas so ill in 2006 ( I couldn’t read, walk or write) I would listen to the film on repeat. I has that wonderful Gospel ingrained on my psyche. I knew no matter what else happened my Yeshua was right there with me. I was finally able to take colorful index cards out and start printing out YHWH’s Word ever so slowly. Now I’m able to memorize His healing Word to heal my injured brain and bring me the true peace that Christ talks about.

  32. Dorrene MNo Gravatar says:

    IIn 2001 Richard E Clarke was nearly screamingwith his hair on fire regarding the immenent (sp?) major al queda attack on New York etc and the Bush admin administration were all playing on their respective ranches far fron D.C. These war profiters and their buddies wanted war so they could fill their personal coffers with $$$$$billions. So how is President Obama worse?
    Besides all of this needs to transpire so we can get the hell out of here correct?
    Now I would rather the gay folks stick with civil unions so they could help loved ones during medical emergencies however…..that didn’t happen.

    I’ll I know for sure is I Love Yeshua and I want out of this hell-hole!

  33. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    At this point I don’t expect you to post my comments. I do read and study Romans and Paul’s teachings over and over and over again. Dozens and some passages 100s of times in the past year even. So I am very much aware of your viewpoint. My comments are warnings for you. Also you never answered what I should tell the backslider who believes in OSAS and keeps on sinning. If he believes he is still going to heaven how do I convince him that he should repent? As far as closed mind is concerned I can say the same thing about you. And by the way going to hell or heaven is a “real life experience.” So a personal experience does not in itself make it non-biblical. What is non-biblical is we wrongly interpret scripture. Don, even if you think I am wrong please realize that I am trying to help you avoid hell. Don’t say God didn’t warn you. This is one of God’s warning for you to correct your OSAS doctrine – which is from hell. (Although you may not believe that at this moment.)

  34. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dorrene M,

    I don’t remember seeing it.

  35. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dorrene M,

    Many of your comments never get posted because this Blog is not an Alex Jones affiliate. I get a little tired of reading the propaganda that you get from such places and I certainly am not going to post them. Have you even read my commenting policy?

    As for asking how Obama is worse? If I really have to answer that question you are not paying attention to what I write and are totally clueless about where Obama is taking this nation.

  36. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    You are a real peace of legalistic work. Now I am in danger of going to Hell if I do not agree with your heresy of conditional salvation? You think Christians that have certain sins are going to Hell but you do not see anything wrong with your grave sin of judging the salvation of brethren that are teaching salvation comes from faith in Christ alone.

    First of all, I do not use the term OSAS because I know there are a lot of people that think that making an altar call saved them. I believe in eternal salvation for the believer. And I can assure you that nothing can be found against that position from scripture. There is no such thing as conditional salvation taught in the scriptures, either one hears the word of God and has faith to believe God or he did not. That is why I asked you to read the article that I gave you a link to in my prior comment. I fully explain in the article that one is saved by believing (trusting) in the Savior that God sent. Apparently you do not have the time to read my positions but you have the time to jump to conclusions and figure out who is going to Hell.

    As for your question, you are to preach the gospel (good news) of salvation through Jesus Christ. That is the commission of the Church. It is not your job to convince people who say they believe to repent and get saved. Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit. Salvation does not come from convincing arguments that you come up with. Thinking that you can convince people to repent and get saved is as wrong as the pastors that think the games they play to make people to respond to their altar calls actually gets everyone responding saved. You see, you’re in the very same boat of the OSAS preachers that you condemn to Hell.

    What should you tell people that act like unbelievers but say that they are Christians? That is most in Christendom. Teach all biblical doctrine. Sanctification does not come from you, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. Either they are born from above or they are not. If they truly are born of God He will deal with them. If they are false converts they never were God’s children at all and remain dead in their sins and your words are not going to convince them to repent. Do you really determine someone’s salvation so that you think your words can save them?

  37. rosebudNo Gravatar says:

    My first comment did not post. So I will try again. Thank you for all of your research. The thing that is appalling is the showing of a video from the pope promoting ecumenicalism by Kenneth Copeland. It is also appalling the real truth about Kenneth Copeland is on many web sites on the internet but (little letters)
    word of faith followers do not research about him. My prayer is that true believers will come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit to seek out the facts. One of his former employees has challenged him to repent. If Catholics have Jesus Christ in their hearts that is a good thing. By being ecumenical with them, the word of faith movement is working towards a one world religion which has the goal of bringing in a one world government.

  38. AnnaNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,
    What do you think, musn’t we be very careful to distinguish between a church that is carnal and a church that is apostate? I keep going back in my mind to the church of Corinth which was a pretty messy place to worship and how the apostle Paul dealt with them, so patiently correcting all their errors but not ever encouraging any to forsake the assembling of themselves together. I just think we need to be cautious about embracing the increasing trend I’m seeing among Christians who just stop “going to church”. Yes, there are tares among the wheat, babes in Christ who are still carnal and immature, and even those who are still worldly when they ought to know better. It’s really hard. One wants to throw in the towel! But I think this is where discernment comes into play, is the church carnal like the Corinthians or is it really apostasy .And certainly, if there is a purer fellowship to be had, seek it out. Perhaps the definition of apostasy needs to be clarified for some believers. Flee apostasy, but not a local body that is ‘striving together’. We will never find perfection in this world, but the local assembly is a real priority in the Word. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

  39. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Anna,

    I agree, if the Christians just leave all the church institutions they will all be taken over by non believers. We are told to contend for the one true faith.

    The definition of Apostasy is to depart from the faith as given in the New Testament. If one departs from the foundational doctrines given to us in the New Testament they have crossed over into Apostasy. There is increasing Apostasy in our churches, but as you said, some are just being dominated by carnal Christians that don’t know better. That is why we need to expose false teaching and false teachers in Christendom and content for the true faith.

  40. Dorrene MNo Gravatar says:

    Don: Thank you for your patience. I do have significant brain trauma with limited memory of the last 8 years. I do rememberboth Bushes administrations although I was working 72-84 hours a week. And, I have rarely gotten anything for free except the most important God’s Grace.

    My new husband took me to numerous 4 and 5 star restaurants when he was courting me. I’ve seen the elites receive wine costing $100s free of charge when they complained a lttle.Free Stuff that Romney complained we ‘little people’ receive. Wall sreeters, big banks, General Electric and 100000s of others mooch off the middle class.

    Anyway they will answer to the ultimate judge, my precious Yeshua. I appreciate your knowledge and intellect. And filling in my missed years.

  41. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dorrene M,

    I understand that you had a brain trauma, but if your brain is not functioning as it should maybe you should be limiting your comments about the evils of others.

    I say that because in your comments (many of them not posted because you were saying similar things about wealthy people) you seem to have a lot of slander and outright resentment toward those of wealth. You really ought to try to obey the 9th and 10th commandments.

    Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s

  42. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    On the subject of Once Saved, Always Saved, here’s the way I perceive it…

    I am accountable and responsible to The Lord God Himself for all that I think, say, and do…and I am most certainly, not without sin.

    He knows what I’m going to do before I even do it, though, I still have free will.

    I am not accountable to any person, Church, or religious theory…but to God Himself and His Word…though, if I find a person, Church, or religious theory that gives me a deeper understanding of The Lord, then I deem it a valuable component to my Relationship with The Lord.

    God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to defeat death and hell so that I can spend eternity with Him…so, why would I not be accountable and responsible to Him ?

  43. DonNo Gravatar says:

    It really comes down to this:

    If God gives saving faith to those elected to be saved, how then can they lose this faith given to them by the grace of God? God does not error in His election. Those He predestinated, He also called: and whom He called, those He also justified: and whom He justified, those He also glorified. Those that believe that salvation is conditional upon our sins also have a lot of other theological errors.

    I think those that believe and trust God for their salvation know if they actually believe or not. I do not think we believers need people to tell us that call upon the name of the Lord that we will not be saved because we have sin in our life. That is why Jesus died for us. Anyone that says he has no sin is a liar.

  44. Barb CarterNo Gravatar says:

    I must reply to this subject on eternal security. Don has given scriptural answers that glorify God’s work. Years ago I read Charles Stanley’s book on Eternal Security. He came from the Penecostal belief that one could lose salvation once saved. He strongly gives good answers in this book which are the same as Don’s. I remember him (Charles Stanley) saying one time on a radio station, “How cheap do you take the blood of Christ that paid for your sins and the sealing of the Holy Spirit to think something you did could remove it from you?”
    Also, as Don stated, believers are elected from the foundation of the world (before we could even sin) to be His children. We are saved by grace and it has nothing to do with what we do, it is simply God’s amazing grace. We never received it by what we did–How can we lose it by what we do? Just something else to chew on.
    I appreciate your knowledge imparted to us here, Don! I’m also testing this reply to see if I get emails from the “bad guys”. I never liked them before so I pray they are gone as you said.
    Other than that, yes, everyday seems to be more of “prophecy being fulfilled” before our very eyes! Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

  45. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Barb,

    “Bad guys” will not do much commenting here because I am not going to argue these theologies on a comment section of a blog. If they persist, they simply will not get posted. I also do not give out email addresses of commentators so you will not be getting emails from them.

  46. jen gNo Gravatar says:

    I agree with you Barb. Although the back and forth on this comment section probably tried Dons patience, I appreciate getting another lesson in eternal security! I never tire of it. Having bedn raisec around armenianism, it was such a relief as an adult to realize I am saved forever! Likd I tell my kids, its not a “pay per sin plan” jesus took care of it once and for all at the cross. Tetelestai! Thanks Don, I so appreciate your ability to think and explain things clearly.

  47. Hi Don,
    I came across one of those who were teaching that OSAS was false doctrin or bad theology.Like all who don’t believe in eternal salvation,they willfully ignore context in scripture.They refuse to recognise the plane meaning of words and phrases.I also found that these people have a strong mystical bent .As you mentioned about emotions,they think that intuition,hunches about the meaning of scripture are the promptings from the Holy Spirit.But in reality,it is thier own spirit or worse,another spirit that leads them astray.After a few back and forth emails,it becomes clear rather quickly that it is a waste of time to try and help those who are determined to remain heretical.It is a sign of the times.Thanks for all the hard work you put into this website,and may God bless you and yours.
    Dave L

  48. David VNo Gravatar says:

    To Don,

    Appreciate you staying more objective than most when it comes to looking at the situation in the Ukraine.

    To the room,

    In my study of the early church there was no such concept as once saved always saved, you were expected to live a holy life, with the mind of God as your guide, hoping to be found worthy of being raised in the resurrection at the Lord’s return.

    I have no dog in the fight as far as whichever denominations may or not be in support of this OSAS doctrine. I find them all to be astray.

  49. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Dave,

    I agree.

    And if salvation was dependent on correct thinking using our defective human brains we would all be in trouble. They want to make thought processes of our defective brains the determination of our salvation rather than trusting in God. Those with gray matter that wrongly rationalizes some sins and do not repent of them would be damned and those that are clear thinking and can list and correctly pinpoint every sin in their life and could repent of them all would be saved. Salvation with these people therefore has more to do with how good our brains function and correctly determine what is sin rather than trusting in Jesus who paid for all of our sins.

    What they do not see is that salvation earned by repenting from specific sins is not even fair. Everyone in this fallen world goes through life with a unique set of problems, some of them are genetic, some come by accident, some of them are caused by sins of others, and some are caused by us. If salvation was based on our own unique human circumstances, God would not be fair. All must be saved by trusting in Jesus period. It is a work of Grace, not a work of brain function.

    By one man sin came into the world and cursed the human race to damnation, and by one man who did not sin, sin was paid for, and the curse of death and separation from God removed. All that are born into this new creation by entering the spiritual Body of Christ, the second Adam, the Kinsman Redeemer, are now fully justified before God.

  50. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David V,

    There was no such concept of OSAS in the early church because salvation was taken for granted for those that confessed Jesus and were baptized. Unbelievers don’t usually identify with a Christ that would bring persecution on themselves. As the Church went on, the New Testament does talk about some that departed from the faith. However, in context it also said that they departed because they were not of us in the first place. In other words, they were never saved. No apostolic era teaching claims that true believers can be lost.

    You guys are really fighting the wrong fight. You do not like OSAS doctrine because you know that a lot of people claiming they were saved are acting like heathen and are not saved. I agree. However, what you should really be fighting against is conversions that were really nothing more than a psychological trick to get suggestible people to respond to their altar calls. Many of these never had a conversation from the heart to Christ at all. You see much the same thing in Charismatic circles where people are claiming to get things they never received because auto suggestion and emotional manipulation techniques are used by the leaders.

    Then you say, see, many of those that claim they were saved are living like the Devil so that means that they lost their salvation. No. they never had salvation in the first place or they would have never have departed from the Faith.

    Fight against the Madison ave salvation side shows that prevails in Evangelical churches not the biblical doctrine of eternal security for the believer.

  51. Hi Don,
    Those who teach against eternal salvation are advocating a works righteousness salvation,which is nothing more than self-righteousness.There are only two religions in this world,the cross of Christ and all that it stands for,OR the religion of “I” Either you have the righteousness of Christ imputed to you,OR you have your own self righteousness by works done in the flesh.If man is responseable for keeping himself saved,then salvation is not a gift,but something earned.Now then if earned,then people would compete for position.But if all recieve the same gift,then all are equall in Gods view.The grace of God is unmerited favor.Recieveing something we don’t deserve(eternal life),and not recieveing something we DO deserve(eternal punishment).I for one am,and will always be eternally greatfull for the gift of eternal savation from my Lord And Savior Jesus Christ.

    Dave L

  52. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    In the direction of recent comments, I’d like to hear input on one of those questions that I get asked by those with little understanding or people in confusion over The Lord Jesus’ Perfect Plan for Salvation.

    They, of course, are using their human mind to justify what they think should and shouldn’t be fair…which is incompetence in and of itself but they don’t see it that way.

    I get asked, “What about those people/tribes in deep regions of earth that have no chance to ever hear the Gospel ?”

    To that, I usually reply that, “I don’t know, however, The Lord God is perfect in all that he does, and whatever he does with those people will be fair and just”.

    That said, there are, from what I read…very few parts of the earth that have not had a chance to hear The Gospel.

    What say everyone else on this ?

  53. David VNo Gravatar says:

    To Don,

    I am not fighting any fight, just relating what the early church believed. Salvation was most definitely not taken for granted. If you believe that, then you have not read much of the church fathers writings.

  54. Well said David La Veque.

  55. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David V,

    I never said that salvation was taken for granted. I said they believed those that confessed belief in Jesus and were baptized. By the way, I was talking about the apostolic era church. After that, many were confused about many issues as they are today. Don’t assume early Christendom knew more about Christian doctrine then we do today. Many did not even have access to scriptures and some were following false teachers.

  56. response to davids ?,

    When people ask about reaching those in remote regions with the gospel,or those in times past,you could ask them,”did God have a hard time talking to noah,abraham,moses,and the list goes on”.God can and does communicateto people in multitudes of ways.No one will be left with out haveing heard in some way shape or form,the message He would have them know.God is not limited,we are.We have reached the point,technologically,where we can reach everyone on earth with the gospel.I’m not sure God meant that we had to deliver it personally.Joel Rosenburg has writen about many in the middle east who are comeing to faith thru dreams.This in countries where evangelist/missionaries are forbiden to go.So,I have faith that God has everything under controll,and can focus on what He would have me do.

    Dave L

  57. DonNo Gravatar says:

    There are too many Davids around here for sure.

    I would not be dogmatic about my conjectures, but if salvation of the soul is really dependent on everyone hearing the gospel “good news” while in the flesh then all young people that die and all those with certain physical handicaps, and all those born at the wrong time and location will end up in the Lake of Fire. I personally think that only those that willfully reject Jesus as Lord are destined for Hell.

    There may be a difference between those chosen to be in the Bride that will occupy the Holy City and the people saved to populate the new earth. Those chosen to be in the Bride of Christ will hear and believe or will be sanctified by a believing parent in this dispensation from Pentecost until the wedding in Heaven. I think we get into many difficulties in theology because Christians think everything is about the Bride.

    Because we do not understand these things, we rationalize that general revelation or dreams will lead people to hear the good news. Perhaps not. Maybe those so dogmatic that everyone not hearing the good news is going to hell are missing something. But what do I know?

  58. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    You seem to get rid of posts whenever you disagree with them. That is your perogative. But if they do not counter what you see as correct theology why delete them? Isn’t a comment section there so people can disagree with others or you (as long as it doesn’t promote erroneous doctrine). You know Don it would help you and others to be challenged once in while. (I also realize your commitment to not expose people to doctrine that you believe is false.)

    – Mike

  59. jen gNo Gravatar says:

    Regarding people who have not heard the gospel. I heard an explanation/conjecture once that those who respond to Gods general revelation (creation, eternity set in our hearts, conscience) and are seeking him, He will make sure the gospel gets to them. This makes sense to me. Nothing is impossible for God.

  60. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    Your statement,

    “I personally think that only those that willfully reject Jesus as Lord are destined for Hell.”
    is NOT biblical.

    It says in Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” This means all deserve to go to hell – not just those who willfully reject Jesus as Lord.

    Everyone. It is only God’s mercy that anyone get’s presented with the gospel (Good News) that we don’t have to go to hell – if we put our faith in Jesus. If someone is not presented the gospel and so they never put their faith in Jesus then yes they are doomed to hell. This is why it is so urgent that we who have the gospel present the gospel to everyone everywhere in the World. This is why God told us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to everyone.

  61. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    Not this site. Read my commenting policy. I do not encouraging aberrant theology here because it misleads other Christians. I let you have your say but did not allow you to keep promoting what you believe. Most like you will not answer the points that I or others bring up anyway, they just keep coming up with new ones or regurgitate their old ones.

    The comment section of this Blog is only allowed so people can add their own knowledge to what I said in the article. It is not a place for people to endlessly debate against my theology and to advance their own theology. If people persist in doing that I will delete them.

    Many come here peddling heretical theology and I could not possibly have the time to refute all their points. So you think I just allow all heresy to be posted so that other Christians that read it can be misled? It won’t happen. If I allowed one heretical view to stand I would have to allow all the heretical views to stand and then this site would just become a site where all the trolls and heretics have a field day.

  62. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    Unbelievers are born into sin and separated from God. In that state the only place they can go is Hell. It is not our fault that we were born into sin in this fallen creation. God remedied that injustice at great cost by sending His Son to save us from our sins.

    I understand your point of view; it is standard Baptist and Pentecostal theology. However, that view does not really answer the question about those that never had a chance to hear the good news. You assume they will all go to hell or they would have heard the good news and got saved. However, reality tells us that many could not have possibly heard the gospel in their life. Then in the next breath you will deny salvation is only for the elect. You really cannot have it both ways.

    My point is that there is a lot of things we do not know. These trite not rational answers just turn off people from accepting anything further that we might say.

  63. David VNo Gravatar says:

    To Don,

    It is hard for me to understand the concept that you know more about salvation than the early church. I study Jesus, apostolic fathers, and early church fathers, conforming my beliefs to their beliefs. I also understand the difference between heresy and orthodoxy of the early church, and the later heresies that were added by combining the name of Christ with Greek Philosophy. Do you?

    I have rejected large parts of Catholicism and Protestantism as being heresy. My desire is to have the mind of God, not man’s interpretation through Greek goggles two thousand years after the fact.

    To me the idea of OSAS, would only be applied to whom the seed fell upon good ground and they produced fruit, but this person would also have to stay faithful until the King’s return. As a former Baptist I understand the concept, but in practice it is abused to no end and gives people a false sense of assurance.

    Surely we both know, the early church expected its members to live holy lives as a condition of membership to the church. If a matter of concern arose, you would be warned once, then twice, and if you didn’t conform, you would be expelled.

  64. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David V,

    If you are going to make your remarks personal you are not going to get posted at all.

    You say eternal security for the believer (that is what I am arguing) is only for those classified as good ground but then say they would also have to stay faithful until the King returns. Obviously they would stay faithful or they would not have been classified as those in good ground to start with.

    Actually, membership in the apostolic early church came with confession and baptism. They had no formal membership like you see in our churches today. They could not possibly have lived holy lives before they were converted. And sin was quite prevalent in the early Church. Some of Paul’s letters address the sin issue in these churches. He even said they were still carnal, yet, he did not say they were not Christian and he did not throw all these sinners out of the Church. Those in grave sin were removed from the Church but Paul addresses why He told them to do that. Further, nowhere does it say that those living in sin and that the Church stopped fellowship with lost their salvation. On the contrary, they were put out of the church to get them to repent and to keep the Church from being corrupted by their sins. No where in the NT does it call a confessing believer an unbeliever.

  65. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I understand your refusal to post what you believe to be false theology. I am not expecting for you to change your policy on that.

    At this point I am just pointing out some of the statements you are making are NOT biblical.

    Whether something is standard Baptist or Pentecostal theology does not make it wrong (or right). Only the bible is always right.

    Back to your statement: “However, reality tells us that many could not have possibly heard the gospel in their life. Then in the next breath you will deny salvation is only for the elect. You really cannot have it both ways. My point is that there is a lot of things we do not know. These trite not rational answers just turn off people from accepting anything further that we might say.”

    Whether my statement is trite or rational or not does not matter. The question should be: “Is it truth. Is it bible?” Rational or not, trite or not, that is the only thing that matters.

    Now Jesus very clearly told us that “Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him (Jesus). ”

    The Holy Spirit also said: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Meaning all are going to hell. Unless they come to Jesus to be saved.

    If people never come to Jesus (for whatever reason) then yes, they end up going to hell. This is what the bible says. Is God unfair because of this? If by unfair you mean unjust, then the answer is that God is not unjust – and that justice requires God to send unrepentant sinners to hell. It is a sad truth but according to the bible (Rom 3:23) it is still truth.

    Now about your statement: “These trite not rational answers just turn off people from accepting anything further that we might say.”

    Because something is trite does not make it false (or true). Because something is not rational (to our human mind) (or rational) does not make it false (or true). The only truth we can be sure of is the truth as given to us by the Bible.

    If we gage a theological point by whether it is trite or rational then we risk the danger of promoting theology that is not true just because it meets the criteria of not being trite or not rational (to our human mind). Remember Paul stated that the gospel is foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling stone to the Jews. Our duty is just to put the gospel out there as peaceably and lovingly as we can – even if seems like foolishness (not rational) to many people out there.

    Get a grip Don. I know you’re better than preferring the world’s “rational” view.
    Stick with the bible and not with your rational human mind (when there is a difference between what your human mind says and what the bible explicitly says).

  66. Dorrene MNo Gravatar says:

    Don &Barb: re YHWH and the elect—why even create anyone/thing that won’t be loyal and choose Him?

    With his all knowing why subject His elect to Lucifer/Satan? It seems so unnecessary and cruel. It just feels so tortuous to me.

    I just want this pain and insanity to end!

    Shalom
    D

  67. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    What I am saying is that you are not addressing the question that was brought up about those that never get a chance to hear and believe. Trite answers saying that everyone that never heard the gospel will be going to hell is not found in scripture and can be a stumbling block to those checking out the truths of Christianity.

    I was not arguing that rationalization trumps the Bible. I do not think your claim that all these people are going to hell is even found in the Bible. I suppose you think all born in the Gentile world prior to Jesus are also going to hell. I do not see where the OT teaches that either. If Jesus came to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel. There were people that were not lost and we know that. For example, John and those that followed John.

    I did not say that anyone will be saved without Jesus. Everyone will have to come through Jesus for salvation. After all, He is God. However, you go beyond what scriptures says and read into it your own beliefs. Nowhere in the scriptures that you quote says that people that did not hear the good news in their human existence will be going to hell. That is what you read into the scriptures that you quoted but it does not say that at all. Romans 3:23 does not say all that sin are going to hell either.

    I agree that our job is to put out the gospel of salvation that comes from faith in Christ alone to the whole world but your presumptions that make a loving God falsely look like an Ogre to unbelievers can become stumbling blocks.

  68. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Dorrene M,

    Because God does not make robots that love Him. He gives humans and angels free will to love or hate Him.

    Satan is being used to help the elect grow into spiritual maturity. All things work together for good for those that love God, to them called according to His purpose (Ro 8:28).

  69. David VNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    We are in agreement on the seed that produced good fruit gaining the hope of salvation, where I have to question, is those believing souls who recanted Christ to spare themselves death. You can’t deny the concept of having to overcome, until the end as being a key belief of the early church.

    In closing, I will reiterate to the room, lets prove ourselves worthy of such great a salvation, and in truth, seek after the mind of God ruling in our minds. Not from fear as under the law, but from loving his ways and so obeying his commands. Then a late doctrine, such as OSAS will be of no consequence.

  70. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David V,

    I think we are told that those in Christ will not go through anything more than they can bear. These Satanic attacks on those that will not recant Christ only happen because God allows it. Those of sound mind that deny Christ under persecution certainly are not relying on the power of the Holy Spirit to give them the strength to endure, so those that deny Christ under persecution apparently are false converts.

    I do agree that whether some once believed and fell away or they were never truly saved at all is of no consequence to those that actually are saved and do trust in Jesus for their salvation.

  71. David VNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    http://eternalsecurity.us/a_historical_examination.htm

    Here is a link where the author and I are in agreement on Eternal Security and from whence the doctrine came.

  72. DonNo Gravatar says:

    David V,

    I posted it but will post this link as an opposing argument.

    http://www.gty.org/resources/study-guides/40-5180/eternal-security

  73. In response,

    Unless i miss understand the comments by david v,his last post is a suttle way of slipping in works righteousness again.What i have noticed is that those espouseing this false doctrin will use biblical sounding statements,but mean something else entirely.
    Gaining the hope of salvation,they imply something earned or worked for,but the biblical meaning is something we already have,which is a gain for us.This phrase is commonly used by catholics,LDS,jehovahs witnesses and all other works teachers.
    The concept of HAVEING TO overcome,again they mean a work to be done,NOT, SOMETHING WE ARE AS CHRISTIANS.
    And PROVE ourselves worthy,MORE WORKS,because we allready ARE worthy as saved born again believers in Christ.Google those phrases and the sites that pop up are mostly the denominations/cults that have a wrong view of salvation by works.

    Dave L

  74. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Why is it that those in the “Work” camps are living holier lives than those in the OSAS “Christian” camp? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

    I mean I see the mormons, JW’s living holier than OSAS “Christians” ?
    Why is this? If OSAS were true shouldn’t this cause more sanctification power for the OSAS “Christians” ?

    I am not saying our salvation is by works. Salvation is definitely by grace through faith.

    But why are OSAS “Christians” living so awfully compared to the work camp and definitely the non-OSAS Christians?

    What is the most likely reason(s) for this?

  75. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    The most likely reason for what you think you see is that you are blind to the facts. The vast majority of Christendom believes in conditional security or no security at all. For example, almost all Pentecostals, Catholics, Wesleyan’s, Nazarenes etc. etc., are in your camp. You can’t tell me that these people are living Holy lives compared to others calling themselves Christians. I was one of those Catholics and also have been a Pentecostal and I lived around Wesleyan’s and knew Nazarenes. I know from experience that many of these people are the most worldly people that you ever will meet.

    Some of them do try to keep from committing the pet peeve sins that their churches harp on, but they ignored all the rest. After they live like all hell. all they have to do to get themselves right with God is shed a tear of repentance and respond to the next alter call. Then they are put back in good standing in their local church often without question.

    Do you really think Mormons and J. W.’s are Holy?? Give me a break, ever hear of Jack Mormons? And Mormonism and J.W’s are brain control cults. I worked with mostly Mormons for a number of years. Believe me there is nothing holy about them. They are worse than Catholics when you deal with them alone out of their church.

    I already told you why many that respond to psychologically driven altar calls do not really get saved. A good part of the reason that these people are not living like Christians is because they never really were Christians. Others never were discipled at all and know nothing about the Bible or Christian doctrine.

    Now, I am not going to keep going around and around with you on this. I have other things to do. So unless you come up with something really new and brilliant we are through.

  76. Mike & all,

    Those who claim the name of Christ & believe OSAS, Who are practiceing sin are most likely those of the apostacy.The great falling away.This would be the vast majority of Christiandom in these last days.They have a false profession of faith.Likewise,those who claim that salvation can be lost,& regained addinfinitetum,by good works,are also likely in the same position.For both sides of the coin,it is a lack of faith in Christ,and his substitutionary atonement,His righteousness being imparted to our account.Niether side fully believes in Gods promises.So they become self-decieved.Resting on the promises of God is the stumbleing block for both sides.Unbelief.And if unbelieveing,unsaved.Both sides want to make God into their own idea of what they think He should be like.The religion of “I”.
    Now,with that said,there ARE those who are temporarilly wrong in their beliefs and practices,and may yet repent & believe.Only God knows.My personal opinion,for most,thats not likely. Like Don, I do not see much use in going any further.

    Dave L

  77. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    In a prior post you said: “Romans 3:23 does not say all that sin are going to hell either.”
    Romans 3:23 says: “All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.” To me this means ‘All have sinned and do not deserve to be in God’s glorious presence in heaven.’ If you don’t see this in Romans 3:23 then surely you see this in Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This is clearly stating that the wages of sin (and sinners earn the wages of sin) do NOT have eternal life. Instead they have eternal death which is hell. So your statement, “Romans 3:23 does not say all that sin are going to hell either.” is NOT biblical (if you put Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 together).

    I believe, in your interest to please people in the world, you are opposing key scriptures that may seem harsh to you. Don, you really need to be extra careful about your statements – some of them are outright in opposition to the bible.

  78. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    I know what Romans 3:23 says and what Romans 6:23 says and if you put them together like you say, they still do not say that all that sin are going to hell. Obviously that would be true if God did not provide a way of salvation for humans in this fallen world but the whole point of the Gospel is that He did. God is giving grace through faith for all those that trust in Him. Jesus is the same YHWH that created the earth that many people knew before Israel and YHWH’s incarnation as a human to pay the price for all sin since Adam. In doing that, YHWH paid the price of sin for the whole Adamic race and all that trust in this loving real God of creation for their salvation will be saved.

    You read your own suppositions into scriptures and then act like what you say should be taken as what God said.

    You think all that did not hear the gospel are going to hell and I bring up the fact that the overwhelming vast majority that ever lived in this fallen world since Adam never heard about a person called Jesus in their life and all you can say is that they are all going to hell.

    The Bible says that the Lake of Fire was created for the Devil and his angels. You want everyone to think that God created man so that most of them will suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire and then you wonder why people will not accept your concept of God.

    My statements are not in opposition to the Bible, they are in opposition to Pharisees like you that think they know the mind of God but don’t.

  79. Caitlin LaneNo Gravatar says:

    Hello all,
    I see the word ‘holy’ being used in a context implying better than, righteous, sinless, etc. The word ‘holy’ means ‘divide,’ i.e. when we accept God’s salvation we are divided from; separated from those who haven’t. To say that someone is or isn’t living a holy life could be subjective. We recognize that there are absolutes; e.g. adultery, lying, stealing, etc, but the lines can get blurry depending on how strong your faith is. Paul’s example was eating meat offered to idols. I’m not going to repeat the story as I believe most of the readers on this blog know it. Unless I misunderstood the discussion it seems like David L. would have me lose my salvation over a subjective list of sins I might be practicing. An example could be the man who wrote the song “Amazing Grace.” I think his name was John Bunyun, but don’t quote me on that. He was the captain of a slave trade ship. From the time he first believed until he realized it was a sin was six years. Does God put a time limit on how long it takes to understand that something we’re doing is a sin?

    I’ve been reading about the believers in North Korea. Most of them only have bits and pieces of scripture. I hope they don’t lose their salvation because they lack an entire “theology.”

    One other thing I would like to add. I had a cousin who was severally retarded. There was not one word he could ever speak. He was not capable of understanding much of anything. Jesus died and paid for the sins of people like my cousin before they were ever born and I don’t believe he went to hell when he died.

    As for me, I had to settle the question of OSAS because I was exposed to it at one time. I will not let anyone bind me in the fear of losing my salvation again. I am holy once and for all.

  80. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Caitlan,

    Where do you find the meaning “divide” for Holy? I can see “separated” or “set apart” and in the context that you are using the word divide I guess you are saying the same thing, but where did you get that meaning for the word?

    Of course, I fully agree with what you are saying and appreciate your wise input.

  81. Hi Don

    I wrote a comment on sanctification yesterday but it seems not to have survived the transition.

    I was wondering where sanctification fits with the theology of those who deny eternal security.

    The Apostle Paul went through hell over the battle between his flesh and the new creation in Christ (Romans 7). He was both a sinner and saint, and because of his sainthood felt the burden of sin… “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death” (Romans 7:24). And in 1 John 1:8 we have the same truth revealed, “If we (John included) say we have no sin we lie to ourselves and the truth is not in us”. John puts no proviso on this statement; there is no limiting factor such as age or maturity, it remains true while we are alive in the body of this death.

    Paul went on to answer his own heartfelt cry of Romans 7:24 when he wrote in the very next verse, “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord”: And the Apostle John reveals the way of victory in 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.

    This is the way of sanctification available and utilised by those who know they are both sinner and saint.

    My initial comment of March 15 stands, and “Once saved always secure” remains a Biblical truth.

    The claims by others to being Christian and yet living ungodly lives is a different matter entirely and is a judgement we should all make to ensure our walk is not spoiled by association.

  82. Hi Caitlan,

    I,David (L) am on the side of eternal security.The other david (v) would tell you can lose it.As to being or liveing “holy”,I agree with Don on meaning,being separated to,and set apart for God and His purposes.The whole of your statement about OSAS,I agree again.Don had said the same in earlier post on this thread.You see Don,some people do read the threads,but with three davids commenting,it can be confuseing.

    Dave L (

  83. Hi Brian from Oz,

    There are two sanctifications.When first saved,that is positional sanctification.The second is progressive sanctification,a life long process.The probationary salvationist do not recognise the first one,hence my use of the word probationary salvationist.They only believe you are saved if you are ABLE to cross the finish line.Hope this helps.I had been debateing these subjects with someone else not long ago.

    Dave L

  84. Caitlin LaneNo Gravatar says:

    Don, I was afraid someone would put me on the spot. Lol. It was quite some time ago that I read an article in Israel My Glory magazine where I learned the root word for holy was divide. I don’t keep back issues so now I can’t look it up. I don’t remember whether the word is from Hebrew or Greek or who wrote the article; they have several contributors. Holy is being used in the context of being set apart or separated. I know it helped me to define Holy when I learned the meaning because we so often hear statements like, “Christians think they are holier than thou,” or things along that line. Israel My Glory is published by The Friends of Israel. I’ve been a supporter for over 10 years so I trust-99.9% of the time what they teach. Sorry that’s as definite as I can be without researching back issues for it.

    David L. Sorry I confused you with the wrong David.

  85. I agree with David L, but prefer to look on salvation in its ‘three fold’ aspect, the second of which is David’s ‘progressive sanctification’ or ‘salvation from the power of sin'; which salvation requires our Spirit filled participation (the works of James 2:18).

    1. We believe in Christ alone by faith alone (Paul’s ‘not of works’) and are sealed by the Holy Spirit… Therein lies our eternal security.

    2. We are being sanctified in the here and now, entering more and more into that rest which is even now available for those who have ceased from their own corrupt and mortal works (Hebrews ch 3-4).

    And
    3. One day we will put off this corruption/mortality in exchange for incorruption/immortality… Wherein lies our glorious hope.

    Any claim to have entered into God’s rest would be sanctimonious hypocrisy if one were dependant on one’s own efforts for that security; but eternal security is God given and to take hold of that truth is a first step into His rest.

  86. LindaNo Gravatar says:

    I have found 2 preachers that preach well – Alistair Begg and Leonard Ravenhill (sermon index)- for anyone looking- Pastor Begg has been a blessing in my life.

  87. dear linda,

    Alistair begg is reformed in theology,a lot like John MacAurther.But Lenard Ravenhill is kesswick theologically.That he also believed in a second baptisim of the Holy Spirit shows pentacostal leanings as well.A lot of what Ravenhill preached would be considered pietistic or even perfectionistic.Throw in some mystical aspects and you have a very dangerous mix.Bob Dewayy wrote a very good article on pietism.Andy Niselli is an expert on the Kesswick movement.Google those pairs of titles/authors to learn more.Ravenhill preaches a works salvation/sanctification.Many christians who long for more in their christian walk have been lead astray by preachers espouseing the higherlife,holiness,kesswick movement.Be very discerning.

    Dave L

  88. Alex MartiyoNo Gravatar says:

    Has anyone read “Conditional Security” by Dan Corner?
    Did it make sense to you?

  89. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi David L and all,

    From what I read by Bob Dewayy, he has always shown a lot of biblical discernment. I would take very seriously anything that Dewayy writes. Obviously, I cannot check out all these teachers so anyone following the suggestions about good teachers from comments here will have to check them out for themselves.

  90. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Alex,

    Were not getting into Corner’s conditional security heresy except to expose it for what it is.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/dan_corner.htm
    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/eternal_security.htm
    http://www.kingdombaptist.org/the-arminianism-of-daniel-d-corner-refuted/
    http://www.letusreason.org/Doct8.htm
    http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/graphic1designer/false/corner.html

    You might also be interested in this dialogue between Dr. James White and Dan Corner. I think it says wonders about the man.
    http://vintage.aomin.org/OSAS.html

  91. Hi Don,

    I read Dr.Whites email exchange with Corner,and was laughing heartily at his usual wit.I read all Dr whites archived material on kjv-onlyism when i first started researching that subject.Lots of the same there too.Thanks for the grin.

    Dave L

  92. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Don & All,

    When I first saw this, I thought it was an April Fools prank…but then I remembered that they don’t celebrate that nonsense in the Middle East.

    As far as what I can tell, it’s legit…and Biblical.

    Take a look for yourselves and prepare to be astounded.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/179116#.Uzu7iJtOXb1

  93. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Hello,

    You are wrong about what “Word of Faith” (WOF) is about. I am a WOF believer and the only thing “Word of Faith” is about is Mark 11:23-24. We take those two scriptures literally. Now there is variation in specific person’s beliefs as is true in any persuasion. I am sure you have individual “belief” differences with those who you consider your true brothers in Christ. Except for the salvation portion, the WOF belief is simply extra and not a required aspect of one’s Christianity (although we believe you will be blessed if you live by Mark 11:23-24). As a believer I don’t believe that a believer needs to adhere (for heaven) to the strict WOF except in the area of salvation and this is the belief: One is saved by true faith in Jesus Christ – nothing more and nothing less. Not by works, not by extra WOF beliefs, not by sacraments, nothing else. Just true faith in Jesus Christ. That’s all.

  94. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    So you think WOF should based their entire doctrine on Mark 11:23-24 and make the rest of the scriptures conform to that passage. Even Mark 11:23-24 does not insinuate what WoF claims. The prime message in the passage in context is to have faith in God and you will get what you ask for if it is in line with God’s will and you are a worthy vessel to receive anything from God.

    Even so, what you ask for is not created by what you speak as top WOF preachers teach. Faith in God comes from the learning (hearing) the word of God and believing what He says. You have to know God’s will for you and the body of Christ to even have faith for a prayer to be answered. You certainly cannot conjecture up faith. You do not get a positive answer from God by thinking you can speaking something into existence. Yet, that is what WoF leaders teach. In fact, they make God their servant and they make themselves little God’s that get God to do their will.

    You,re also quite wrong to say WoF theology can be summed up in that one passage. The books stores and the air waves are filled with WoF Theology that twists all kinds of scriptures. They go way beyond twisting Mark 11:23-24. In fact, they go off into presumption and claim gifts that they have never received from God. They then presume to speak for God, claim new direct revelation and twist many passages in the Bible that includes almost all Eschatology. They is why they buy into heretical Dominion Theology, Deliverance Theology and teach that true Christians can lose their salvation.

    Wof is a very diobiotical theological system that often gets into spiritualism that cannot even be distinguished from demonic New Age Theology. For example, “The Secret” and what is taught in WoF is pretty much the same things.

    I am not saying that WoF preachers and those that attend such churches do not have some different points of view. And I am not saying that there are not Christians in WoF churches. However, the top leadership in the Word of Faith movement is very demonic and it is having a very bad influence on Christianity as a whole. For example: should we follow Copeland’s move back toward Roman Catholicism and mysticism? I think those within the WoF movement need to depart. The leadership will lead you to the Harlot of Revelation 17.

    By the way, its not going to do you any good to argue with me. I have been around WoF people too long to even think that you are teachable. It is all based on feelings and emotion rather than on Biblical doctrine using any correct hermeneutics. Many WoF people set themselves on another level and they look down on Christians. They do not even think that non Pentecostals or non charismatics even received the Holy Spirit. WoF people claim to have received lying gifts, and the proof that it is lies is that is has never advanced Christianity on earth positively. Everything in most of the lives of WoF people, is using claimed gifts to try to acquire their lust of material things or health. The sign gifts that they claim from God is used for self centered and selfish purposes. Which just proves that they received nothing from God.

  95. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Hello Don,
    I do agree with your statement: “Faith in God comes from the learning (hearing) the word of God and believing what He says. You have to know God’s will for you and the body of Christ to even have faith for a prayer to be answered.” In fact I agree with you strongly on this specific statement. Once you do learn what God’s will is then that is when you can apply Mark 11:23-24. Now it’s important to notice that the WOF preachers did not invent Mark 11:23-24. That was invented by Jesus. We must only find out God’s will and apply the measure of faith that God has given us to obey God in His will for our life.

    As far as your other accusations against the WOF preachers I have no wish to argue with you about that. Some may be trying to use WOF for selfish gain etc but some are just trying to do God’s will in their life and ministry from a pure heart. In the end God will judge every heart and it’s not just many of the WOF people that are gonna come up short. There will be plenty of non-WOF people who also will come up short. Only God can judge the heart. Yes we should judge heresy but there is no need to hatefully rake people through the mud. Because in just the way you judge (without mercy) is the way God will judge you. It is best to be merciful because then God will have mercy on you. This is not to say that you accept false teaching. Just that we should not make things personal and hateful. Just teach the right way and correct error impersonally (it is possible to do this) and leave the judging to God.

  96. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    We are told to expose false doctrine and false teachers. WOF theology is based on much more than just your interpretation of Mark 11:23-24. If you cannot see that their doctrine is not biblical and is full of twisted scriptures, it is because you are believing what their doctrine says rather than what the Bible actually teaches in full context of clear passages.

    Or perhaps you really do not know the Bible. Many WOF people think that Christian doctrine comes out of thin air or repeating what they hear WOF teachers say. If you are going to rip out one verse out of the Bible and build doctrine on it. It is very likely that you will get into error. It is called proof-texting, and that is what WOF teachers invariably resort to. I cannot think of one nationally known WoF preacher that does not teach the same errors as all the rest. They are like clones. They learn it at the Bible college they attend.

    Most heretical teaching comes about because people depart from the clear teaching of the word. Some people put strange meanings on what God actually said. There are devious people that do that on purpose, but others get into error because they will not use grammatical, historical, literal hermeneutics. In other words, they have bad hermeneutics so they also have bad exegesis.

    Further, they will claim direct Revelation to make claims that are not in the scripture or to twist something that is in scripture. You fail to even mention those prevalent errors among WOF teachers.

    Frankly, WOF preachers make scripture say what they want. That does not excuse others that are not in WoF from doing the same. When we see heresy coming from anywhere we should expose rather than be an apologist for bad doctrine. I do that as much as I can with the God given insights that I am giving. On the other hand, you are an apologist for a clearly heretical movement that was invented by unstable men and women.

    We are to judge doctrine, so you are quite wrong about that. What we are not to judge is the salvation of those that claim to be Christians. Having said that, some people clearly mark themselves as false teachers by promoting a different Jesus and a different gospel then the one the whole Bible reveals.

  97. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Ok Don,

    But just remember in the same way you judge WOF people you yourself will be judged. And in the same measure you use it will be measured to you. If I were you I would have a genuine Fear of God in this regard.

    – Mike

  98. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    With the unfounded condemnation that you write in your books about people that will be going to Hell because they are not tithing, etc. I think you should be more worried about your own judgment. Obviously you have no fear of God since you dare speak for Him. I fully expect a reward for exposing deadly false teachers like you.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/Are%20Christians%20commanded%20to%20tithe.htm

  99. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    According to God in Malachi 3:8-11 people who don’t pay God His tithe are robbing God.
    According to God in 1 Cor 6:9-10 All thieves (robbers) will NOT go to heaven.
    Therefore those who don’t tithe are going to Hell.
    Where is my logic incorrect?
    Sometimes we overcomplicate the gospel (replacing it with our own interpretation)
    to our own destruction.
    The bible is very simple to understand.
    We overcomplicate it to try to find an excuse to not obey it.
    God says what He means and He means what He says.
    We should believe God’s Word – as written.

  100. Mike PeraltaNo Gravatar says:

    Hello Don,

    Here’s a question for you that will probably put you on the spot.
    I witnessed my nephew sincerely and genuinely give his heart to Jesus when he was 7 years old.
    I witnessed and heard him confess Jesus as his Lord and Savior at his water baptism when he was 7 years old. And he really was fully aware of what he was confessing and his conversion to Jesus was real and genuine.
    Now as time evolved he is now 21 years old. But now he has turned to be a homosexual – which he started practicing in the past few years. Is he saved or not? He really was saved to begin with at 7 years of age – I heard him, I witnessed him honestly confess Jesus as His Lord and Savior. And he was a good and decent boy at the age of 7. Now what say you? Is he now saved? If he were to die today in his homosexual sin would he go to heaven? Don’t give me no cowardly answer. You say you believe in eternal security. So what is your answer?

  101. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    Do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you just too lazy to read? I explained all about tithing in the link to my article that was in my second to last comment to you? If that is not enough for you to dispel your notion that Christians are required to tithe, follow the three links in the article and get additional information.

    Your quoting Malachi 3:8-11 just shows your bad hermeneutics. That message was to the nation of Israel. They were under the law of the tithe. The New Covenant Church is not Israel. One of the basics in Bible interpretation is that you have to determine who God was speaking to. Besides, God did not say that those that did not tithe are going to hell. Israel could not keep the law it was meant to lead them to the one that sat on the mercy seat (Jesus Christ). I explained in that article that even Abraham did not tithe according to the law. So is he going to hell? So are you giving the three tithes that are required under the law (about 23 percent of your annual increase) or are you condemning yourself to hell as well?

    What about all the other laws that you are you not keeping as the law requires? The spirit of the law was explained by Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. The point was that no man can keep it. They had to come in through Him. According to your thinking if you break even one law you condemn yourself to hell.

    You do not seem to understand that Jesus paid the price of the law. New Covenant believers are in Christ and are under the law of Christ. We are not under the Mosaic Law.

    The Bible is not as simple as you think it is to understand, because you get the whole message wrong. The Bible is spiritually discerned. Instead of preaching a message of salvation through trust in Jesus Christ. You preach a message of condemnation to those that do not keep the law. You preach the condemnation under the law that Jesus nailed to the cross when He paid the price of all sin. By the disobedience of one man sin and death came into the world and through the obedience of one man, the second Adam, man has been justified and can fellowship with God. The veil of separation is now torn. Those in Christ can enter the Holy of Hollies.

    With your demonic books of extra biblical revelation about Hell and Heaven and your condemnation of believers you need to examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith. It seems to me that your still in bondage under the law and living in presumption and have never been saved. You need to repent and turn from your ways of legalism to God’s way of grace and redemption.

  102. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Mike,

    Confessing magic words does not make anyone saved. You do you even know the hearts of adults, yet can presume to know the heart of a seven year old? People are not saved through their guilty conscience. I believed in Santa Clause when I was seven years old and thought He was watching if I was good or bad. Yet, also confessed a Catholic Jesus at the same age. Did that make me saved? I think not!

    There are no good and decent humans in this world including seven year olds. Not one. Children should not be encouraged by adults to confess faith in Jesus when they do not understand the Gospel. Anyone can make a seven year old confess anything.

    The brain is not even fully formed until one is about 20. True believers are true believers they will stay in the faith. They do not depart from what they know is the truth. They may fall into sin, but God’s knows how to deal with such of His children to save their soul.

    Why don’t you ask your Nephew if He really believes now? If he don’t it probably is because he just did what others expected of him at the age of seven?

    You see what you are doing. You cannot justify your own legalism through the scriptures so you come up with hypothetical crap to try to discredit those that know salvation comes by Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone. Why not let Jesus worry about keeping those that have truly believed in Him? Else, if salvation depends on our actions, we saved ourselves through our own actions. That is totally contradictory to what scriptures teaches. With relatives that confess a gospel of legalism, no wonder your Nephew is confused.

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