108 Responses to “Ezekiel 37 describing literal resurrection and return of Israel?”

1. David Little - Canada says:

   January 19, 2012 at 1:37 pm

   This is definitly an area I have not thought about but then I still feel quite “newbish” in reading prophecy. Wish Daniel etc. had a video recorder eh.. lol.

   So I know I need to take this one step at a time or one concept at a time in order to walk through this and pray for understanding.

   When you mentioned the raising of the dead I could not help be recall such a significant event as at the death of Christ on the cross in Matt 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

   So I do not disagree that this could happen and I don’t thing anyone else can say NO either. Like many things in the Bible it could be speaking to many things. 1. The rebirth of the nation 2. the Physical resurrection of Israel’s elite as you state and 3. The spiritual awakening of God’s people Israel.
   Thoughts?

   Secondly for me I get then drawn into the timing of where things fit.
   So does this then change the view of the war of Gag and Magog as to where it fits?
2. Don says:

   January 19, 2012 at 2:08 pm

   Hi David,

   I see nothing to add to what you said.

   As for the timing of Gog Magog I think it is 15 years or more in the future. I tend for it being pre-trib but I am getting second thoughts.
3. David Little - Canada says:

   January 19, 2012 at 2:58 pm

   Well it indeed can still be pre-trib as I can’t find anything other that Armies from the East in Revelation. Like most of my views it is only as good as I see things now. If wars like Ps 83 or natural events like earthquakes or geo-polictical re-inventions take place it can create a whole new interpretation.
   So for now I like it being a post Ps 83 – Pre-Trib event.

   
4. Don says:

   January 19, 2012 at 3:20 pm

   David,

   There are two wars just in the opening of the seals in Revelation. If you want to figure it all out just get Daniel 11 all correct. When you get that all figured out let me know.
5. Bill says:

   January 19, 2012 at 4:04 pm

   I see this as a prophecy of the “end times” that the plan of God is to restore all of the house of Jacob including the “10 Lost Tribes” which is represented by stick with the name of Joseph. The stick of Judah is clearly the Jews and while the stick of Joseph may be representing the Christians. Today true born-again Christians feels an affinity for the nation of Israel and are developing a desire to understand their Hebrew roots. This seem to be a beginning of the drawing of the sticks together.

   In Revelation we see the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel meaning they will not be chosen from the Jews alone. The lost tribes descendents are out their somewhere and God knows who they are and where they are.

   I think it might mean that God will begin to draw all of Israel together before the tribulation and continue through the tribulation into the millennium kingdom. Through this process the “heathen” who have been attacking God’s people will see the truth of God’s word.

   I also think the king David is not the literal king David but represents his throne and will be occupied by King Jesus, the son of David (Matthew 1:1).

   Anyhow that’s what I think. I found this site recently by searching for commentary of Revelation.
6. David Little - Canada says:

   January 19, 2012 at 4:04 pm

   LOL, I have no delusions on figuring it all out Don. haha.

   Could you please clarify regarding these 2 wars?

   Thanks
   
7. Don says:

   January 19, 2012 at 4:19 pm

   Bill,

   I totally disagree that Christianity has anything to do with Ezekiel 37 or the 144,000 in Revelation, and nothing you said explains the resurrection outlined in my article.
8. Don says:

   January 19, 2012 at 4:22 pm

   David, that is speculative and also off topic
9. Ted says:

   January 19, 2012 at 10:03 pm

   Don,

   It’s interesting that you bring up this point now. It’s something I’ve pondered about as well. I even raised this issue with Arnold Fruchtenbaum a few years ago. I don’t recall every detail of his response. I do remember him stating that Ezek 37 could not be speaking of a physical resurrection per se because the bones are speaking with each other (Ezek 37:11). Since then, I’ve put this matter aside until now. It’s possible that many in the dispensational community have been guilty of not applying a literal hermeneutic regarding these passages.
10. Don says:

    January 19, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    Ted,

    In verse 11 I don’t see that the bones are talking to each other. They seem to be speaking for themselves.

    Most of the dispensational community clearly are not applying a literal hermeneutics here and I think they are doing it because they want the fulfillment to be taking place now rather than after the tribulation of those days. They do the same with Ezekiel 34-36 but I do not know what they do with Ezekiel 35 since clearly God has not destroyed Edom yet.
11. Joel says:

    January 20, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    Don,

    Ezekiel 37:14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’ ”

    Zechariah 12:8-9 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    If they are to be like David, then they have to have this testimony from God. “Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, ‘I HAVE FOUND DAVID THE SON OF JESSE, A MAN AFTER MY OWN HEART, WHO WILL DO ALL MY WILL.’”

    In time past, from 1775 to present, it was the United States military who stood between the oppressed and the oppressor. But that was in time past, the U.S. of A. is not mentioned in the end time prophecies for good reason, the U.S. has fallen just like Israel did. I think you are correct in your interpretation of Ezekiel 37 and I would like to insert that this exceedingly great army will be right at the beginning of the one thousand years reign of Jesus. And David will be the Chief Prince of that army. Can you imagine an elite exceedingly great army, in the millions. I would assume, also, this will be God’s military on earth during the 1000 years.
12. Don says:

    January 20, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Joel,

    I might think that this resurrection is after the tribulation of those days for Israel and just before the millennial reign begins (Mt 24 29-31).

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
13. jim says:

    January 20, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    Don,

    What makes you question the war of ezekiel 38-39 might not being pre trib? If that happens to be true then we should not be looking for israel to be living safe and secure as a precursor to the rapture ( if it really was 7-10 years before the 2nd coming).
14. Don says:

    January 21, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Jim,

    I still think the Ezekiel 38-39 war is pre-trib but I am not sure that it is. There are probably more Bible prophecy teachers that think that it is not pre-trib then there are that think it is pre-trib. The problem with Ezekiel 38-39 is that there are problems no matter where you put the war that can only be answered with someone’s conjectures. Some of the most well known Bible prophecy teachers like Hal Lindsay put it mid trib.

    The Great tribulation is only 42 months. Israel can be living in peace before that. I think Israel will be quite secure living under the time of the two prophets. But, don’t get me wrong, for it to be mid-trib there is still a great problem about how the whole house of Israel is burying the dead and burning the weapons of war during the Great tribulation. So I tend to think it is either pre-trib or very near the end of the tribulation and shortly before Armageddon.

    I am getting second thoughts about my pre-trib position because If you read the OT prophets in context and correlate the prophecies without injecting conjectures it is the war just before Israel’s restoration. How then can this war happen before the final seven years of Israel’s transgression? One can speculate, but nobody really knows for sure.

    Bible prophecy is not as cut and dry as those who have it all figured out teach.
15. David Little - Canada says:

    January 21, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Ezekiel 37:10-12 NASB 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. 11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’ 12 “Therefore prophesy, and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.

    First off appologies for an unintentional potential rabbit trail there Don, . Easy to do.

    I do still see many times that there seems to be layers to End Times prophecy and it is not cut and dry. We forget that in our limitations God can only communicate things in a restrictive fashion and as such people like Daniel and John could only recieve it in a restrictive fashion. Then we try to read as linear / sequential events may actually be intertwined. Again some read it as just a literal and others as symbolic where it may be both or more.

    So as I have been reading and thinking I have this thought.
    In the first part the Valley of dry bones comes together and becomes this vast army that has life. Now is Vs 11 reflecting back on the valley of bones or is it now speaking to this army that they are restored / resurrected alive but still trapped in their ‘graves’? Is this a physical status as in that even they are on their way to becoming a restored people they still live as those who have no hope? Like in the days of Egypt they were about 2 million people (a large number) and yet lived in the “chains” of slavery so felt like they could be nothing more?
    Is this restoration to a great army instant or a progression?
    Is this also speaking to a spiritual state that and it is instant or is it too a progression of which the fullness of these events have yet to be fullfilled?
    Are the graves referring to the nations they fled too, their spiritual state, and possible resurrection?

    If these events speak to a progression then it is still very possilbe that the various wars and struggles God’s people face are also a part of this journey in becoming a Great Army and a Spirit Filled people that we know they will be in the Millenium.
16. Don says:

    January 21, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    David Little,

    I think God communicated exactly what he wanted to say through his prophets. He was not restricted by the limitations of Daniel and John if that is what you mean.

    I think the subject of verse 11 is what God said it is. It is the whole house of Israel. In that verse, the whole house of Israel is saying they have no hope. I would think the whole house of Israel will only get to that point of despair at the very end of the 70th week, but when they do lose hope in themselves, God resurrects them.

    Whether or not this resurrection is instant or progressive depends upon your point of view, but verse 13 says that when they come out of their graves they will know the Lord. So I do not think this passage implies that it is progressive, like Israel being brought back in unbelief first. It seems to me that the whole house of Israel will get the Spirit when God raises the whole House of Israel up and brings those still alive back to the Land.

    Are the graves referring to the nations that they fled too? First of all, most did not flee to a nation God had them removed. But, to answer your questions, Are the graves referring to the nations they lived and died in? I guess one can read in anything they want, and they do. However, the passage gives no reason to believe that graves are nations or the spiritual state of Israel.

    As for your last paragraph, if anyone wants to think that the remnant that flees to the mountains from the Antichrist become all of that exceeding great army spoken of here, be my guest. I just do not buy that a couple of million Jews that fled in Jordan make an exceedingly great army.
17. David Little - Canada says:

    January 21, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Well I for sure don’t want to miss read or read into anything and I know I have only really begun this journey a year ago. So I appreciate and respect the time, energy and prayer you have obviously put into this blog.

    You present some very good thoughts here and I would have to spend alot more time studying before I could even venture any further on this topic… say next year? lol. Feel like a highschooler who showed up to a Master’s course and thought I could participate. lol. I was not meaning anything like that in my last paragraph.
    As I return to reading Ezekiel though I appreciate the challenge of this perspective and will keep it in mind.

    I thank you
18. Don says:

    January 21, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    David Little,

    I think you added to the discussion and I appreciate that. We are all still learning here. I certainly am not in the majority in my position on Ezekiel 37. So, if I give a dissertation on Ezekiel 37 that is a small minority position I really need to be able to defend what I imply. Otherwise I might have to rescind that Honorary PHD that I gave myself from my own Home School of Self Importance.
19. Phil Mayo says:

    January 21, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Your concept of an “exceedingly great army” is wrong. It isn’t referring to the army’s effectiveness. It is referring to its size. At the height of 1970′s terrorism the Israeli government declared “every Israeli is a front-line soldier”. That edict has never been repealed. So today they are the most exceedingly great army in the world.
20. Don says:

    January 21, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Phil,

    I never said the army’s effectiveness would make it exceedingly great. By my mentioning the number of Jews I was obviously saying that they do not have the numbers to be an exceeding great army. Not everyone is an adult or able-bodied or even Jewish. The army and reserves of Israel are about 750,000 people in contrast the army and Reserve of Russia is 20 million and the kings of East will field 200,000,000 million. Besides, they cannot be so exceeding great if they have to have God to fight Gog Magog for them and they flee to Jordan from the Antichrist. By the way, even with their reserves they are far from the most exceedingly great army in the world. Even Cuba is larger.
21. Cheryl Keller says:

    January 21, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    Don,
    You said you tend to believe Gog-Magog is pre-trib.Do you tend to believe it is
    pre rapture ?
    Love your site.
22. jim says:

    January 21, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    Thanks for the clarification Don. I also believe the ezekiel war is pre trib. The reason i believe this is because God will be dealing with the jews during the last seven years not the church. The jews and much of the rest of the world will see that there is a God and He will protect Israel in the aftermath of the gog war. It will be proof so to speak that God exists and for that reason i believe it will be post rapture. Also what you stated before about the burning of weapons for seven years makes it likely it is pre trib. i doubt God will want any remembrance of past wars during the beginning of the millennium. Also i doubt they would need to burn weapons for energy after Jesus is reigning on earth and the earth is a paradise.
23. Tom Porter says:

    January 21, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Don,
    You are likely familiar with Jack Kelley’s interpretation of our Lord ruling and reigning from Shiloh when He returns to set up his earthly kingdom. Shiloh, located about 20 miles north of Jerusalem, was where the ancient Israelites first worshiped. Kelley believes Ezekiel’s discription of a future temple is in actuality, detailed plans for the millennial House of the Lord. The Lord rules the nations from Shiloh, while King David rules the House of Israel from Jerusalem. What think ye?
24. David Little - Canada says:

    January 21, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    Appreciate the encouraging and kind words Don. Indeed we are all learning and yes we all need to be willing to be open. It is what I really like about your blog.

    I have many thoughts as what you speaks to is an entirely different Israel than what we see today. Even if some are becoming saved it is not like a “whole house” event as it is such a tiny percentage. Even as I look at Isaiah 19… Judah becomes a terror to Egypt and then suddenly they are worshiping in Irael along with the Assyrians. But are they worshiping as in OT times or is this a picture of a Sprit Filled Irael. Your Ez 37 view definitly puts a different possible light on things, but until I understand this more it is just an opinion.

    Timing is so difficult to determine and it is my opinion that God did that on purpose.

    As I would like to grow in my studies I would appreciate any recommendations of resources regarding studying such hard books like Daniel, Ezeikel etc.
25. Don says:

    January 21, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    Cheryl,

    I do not know. Sometimes I tend to think the Gog war and the Rapture will occur about the same time.

    Jim,

    I understand that view,

    Tom,

    That view is not unique to Jack Kelley although he probably best expresses it. The Millennial Temple described within Ezekiel 40-48 is too large to fit on the present Temple mount. I really have not mapped out the land areas described in these chapters for exact location. I do know the Temple will be in the midst of the 25 sq miles or so allotted to the Lord and the space allotted to the Prince I believe adjoins it. Kelly is pretty astute. I do not agree with him on everything but He is not just a cookie cutter Bible prophecy teacher that regurgitates other people’s views. I especially like his views on the location of the Holy city during the Millennium.

    David little,
    Glad to confuse you some so you will search out things for yourself. Missler has good audio’s and study notes on Daniel and Ezekiel. Also check out A. Bloomfield and D. Jeremiah on Daniel.
26. Phil Mayo says:

    January 22, 2012 at 4:58 am

    Don.
    Looking at it from that point of view you would appear to be right. But there must be a reason for the description of Israel as an “exceedingly great army”.
    God doesn’t exaggerate or use words unnecessarily. The fact that, unlike any of those governments of the countries you mention, the Israeli government considers all six million or so of its population to be front line soldiers in a war zone, seems to be the only logical explanation.
27. Don says:

    January 22, 2012 at 6:56 am

    Phil,

    Did you even read the post? You are using circular reason saying that Israel today is that exceedingly great army because God said there would be an exceedingly great army. I explained in the post how they become an exceedingly great army.
28. Ted says:

    January 22, 2012 at 8:40 am

    As a related aside…. The Hebrew word translated to “army” here is a generic term that does not exclusively mean a military force per se (even in the book of Ezekiel). The Hebrew “chayil” (translit) can mean strength, might, efficiency, wealth, or army.
29. Joel says:

    January 22, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Phil, in the last half of Ezekiel 37:14, it says, “Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’”. That pretty much sums up what God had already planned on doing. Raising up and exceedingly great army from just dry bones and they will have no equal here on this earth.
30. Phil Mayo says:

    January 22, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Don.
    Yes I did read your post, and I saw how you think the “exceedingly great army” is created.
    I was stating why I think it may already be in existence. And that is not just because God said it would exist. It is because the Israeli government declared the existence of the largest army of front line soldiers deployed anywhere today.

    Which is not too incredible to take as a possible fulfilment of prophecy, when you consider the fact that ancient armies used to be comprised of both the soldiers and their families, who used to provide much of the logistical support. Prophetic scripture does tend to use ancient descriptions for what has to be the modern equivalent. Swords, spears and chariots for guns, missiles and tanks.

    Ted’s post regarding the meaning of the original language used adds support to my argument. This army of Israel does have an enormous influence throughout the world.

    That’s not to say they will always be this way. They won’t. But for this particular period on the prophetic clock. That has seen, and will continue to see them taking back their God given land. They will remain an exceedingly great army.

    I’m not convinced by your explanation of how and when they become an exceedingly great army. And you did invite arguments to the contrary. Thats why I put forward my own theory rather than just being negative.

    What would be the purpose of this army? We are talking of the millennium kingdom. Swords to ploughshares etc.
31. Don says:

    January 22, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Phil,

    I disagree that Israel has the largest army of front line soldiers deployed anywhere today. First of all they are not all deployed, most of these are reserve and as I said, even with the reserve they total 750 thousand people. There are many active and reserve armies much larger than that. Anyone can check out these figures on the internet. Both North and South Korea have many more troops on the front and much less border to defend.

    I would like to see the source of Israel declaring that they have the largest army of front line soldiers deployed anywhere today? If everyone in Israel is in the front line army as you suggest, then they have no logistical support at all, and that still does not make them an exceedingly great army.

    Ted’s point is really besides the point, because in context this is obviously talking about the whole house of Israel (people) and not the other things that he mentioned.

    You are suggesting that the present “exceedingly great” army of Israel that is still without God’s Spirit will take back their God given land before the final week of transgression for Israel even begins. If that were true they would just lose it again to the Antichrist so what is the point? That also is not what Ezekiel 37 implies.

    You are correct I did invite comments to the contrary and I appreciate yours. However, if I could not dispute arguments that the partial return to Israel today already makes up that exceeding great army there would have been little point in me writing this post at all. You obviously see the resurrection as a metaphor for this partial return. I do not think that interpretation flies, so I am telling you why by disputing your points.

    You asked what would be the point of having this Army in the Millennium Kingdom? Wasn’t it already suggested that it did not have to be a military Army it could just be an Army of people? However, I think other scriptures do point to military action. I never suggest that this army will fight in the millennium at all. I suggested the following:

    Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    What I am suggesting is the 70th week will be completed for Israel and then the whole house of true Israel will be resurrected and brought back and they will take part in the defeat of all the nations that come against Israel. That is what I think the above passage implies. All this occurs prior to the Millennial Kingdom. This is not part of Jacob’s trouble because Israel already knows their Lord at this point. But, it certainly will be a slaughter for all the armies of the world that dare to come against Jerusalem.
32. Brian from Oz says:

    January 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Don
    My two bits worth:

    From my studies on Zechariah 12:8 I see that in this siege God is going to motivate the people of Jerusalem so that the feeble will have the strength of a young and vigorous fighting soldier and the leadership will be inspirational; likened to the angel of the LORD (KJV).

    I believe vss.5-6 suggest a similar inspiration where the people of the surrounding countryside (Judah) will see the valour of the citizens of Jerusalem and will be moved to emulate them. Their exploits in the field of battle is likened to a devouring flame.

    In Micah 4:9 – 5:1 we have this same battle described, with the Jewish residents (daughter of Zion) being strengthened by the Lord to destroy many of the enemy. We need only look back to the six day war of 1967 to believe Israel had supernatural help to sustain, strengthen and enable her to win against such superior numbers. This end-time event will be even more unequal in the natural sense (but God is on the side of his people).

    I admit to a more naturalistic view of supernatural events involving man. We are but earthen vessels, but when inspired by God, capable of doing great things.
33. Don says:

    January 22, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Brian,

    Yeah, but the context of Zec 12:8-9 is clearly when all nations come against Jerusalem and we know that occurs when the Antichrist and False prophet gather all the armies of the world against Jerusalem in rebellion against the God of Heaven to prevent Jesus from being King.

    So it is not just superior numbers like the 6th day war, it is a overwhelming force of all the remaining armies of the world being being led by demonic beings to fight against Jerusalem.

    I also was not suggesting that the Israelites will be supernatural beings. After all, scripture says that after Israel and Judah enter into the New Covenant they will be given a heart of flesh. That is part of the reasoning why I said in the post that the elect of the whole house of Israel may come out of their graves like Lazarus.
34. Phil Mayo says:

    January 23, 2012 at 7:32 am

    Don.
    The edict was passed by the Israeli government back in the 70′s to counter the incentive for Palestinian terrorists to take Israelis hostage. (Munich Olympics, Aircraft hijacks, Attacks on school kids etc) I think it was Golda Meyer who made the declaration “every Israeli is a front line soldier”.
    It was not meant to be understood in the sense of uniformed soldiers. It basically declared to the world what was already a fact anyway. That every part of Israel is the front line as far as terrorists are concerned. And every Israeli is involved in the battle, whether they wear a uniform or not. Terrorists don’t discriminate between soldiers and civilians!

    Daniel’s description of the scene when the beast is destroyed and the kingdom is handed to Jesus, does involve a lot of people. But if that is the exceedingly great army, I can’t help thinking there would have been something more in that description to connect it to the term than metaphor.

    I do believe they will take more of the land than they have today, because prophecy tells us they will be living in the ‘midst’ of the land at the time of the Gog Magog invasion. That midst is currently somewhere in Jordan. I agree they will lose it when they have to flee the Antichrist. But they must be in possession of it first.

    I don’t believe “heart of flesh” to be anything more than a metaphor. Same as “heart of stone” or “hardness of heart”. They are metaphoric terms depicting the spiritual condition of people toward God. They aren’t to be understood literally as describing anything physical.
35. Don says:

    January 23, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Phil,

    I am quite aware of the Israeli position that everyone in Israel is in this fight for national survival but that is not the reference I was asking for. You said “the Israeli government declared the existence of the largest army of front line soldiers deployed anywhere today”. Where is that said? It certainly is not true and it does not make this partial return of the Jews the exceeding great army that was spoken about in Ezekiel 37.

    If you are talking about Daniel 7 being just a metaphor you are quite wrong. What happens there is explained, and it will take place as said, it is not just a metaphor. All details about the last days are not in Daniel chapter 7 either. There is much more said by the prophets than in just one chapter in Daniel. Great detail is given in Daniel 11 and elsewhere if you can figure it out. I think Zec 12:8, and Ezekiel 37 speaks for itself unless you can tell us why it does not mean what it says?

    Here is the bottom line. If you have an argument from scripture why the resurrection described in Ezekiel 37 is just to be taken as a metaphor for a partial return of Israel then present it. I do not say I have to be correct, but thus far I have not seen arguments presented from scripture that held up that says I am wrong. Everything else that you are bringing in, is conjecture to support a theory that I already countered using scripture in this post.
36. Brian from Oz says:

    January 23, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    Don

    When you say “…it is an overwhelming force of all the remaining armies of the world being being LED by demonic beings to fight against Jerusalem” are you say physically led or spiritually motivated?.
37. Don says:

    January 23, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Brian,

    Mostly spiritual but the demons coming out of the pit will possess real natural bodies. We also know the Antichrist and False prophet are real men from which spirits will go out to deceive the kings of the earth to gather them against Jerusalem.

    Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
38. Brian from Oz says:

    January 23, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Don

    Comment:
    The demons out of the smoke from the furnace certainly have bodies with power to hurt and it is clear these creatures are super-supernatural, but their commission seems to be limited to just 5 months, just as the supernatural plagues of Egypt were also short lived. I tend to place them in much the same category.

    Question:
    Regarding the ‘heart of flesh’ and the raising of the past dead of Israel: Didn’t this resurrection occur at the resurrection of Christ (Matthew 27:52)? (I have never understood the who or why of that event)
39. Don says:

    January 23, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Brian,

    The creatures that come out of the smoke that sting men are limited to hurt men five months but obviously fallen angels and/or demons exist on earth until the end of the reign of the Antichrist. Like the scriptures says above, three spirits of devils come out of the mouth of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet and they go out to the kings of the earth and the whole world to gather them to battle against Jerusalem.

    The promise of a heart of flesh was given to Israel within the New Covenant. Christians certainly have entered into that promise and their hearts are being changed but the whole house of Israel has not. The full fulfillment of this promise is a millennial promise to the whole house of Israel.
40. Joel says:

    January 24, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Don,
    In your argument to demons and spirits being released from the pit, some will have physical bodies and some will be spirits. The demonic spirits are going to need bodies to possess. I believe that the scripture reference for this could be found in Matthew 8:31-32, Mark 5:11-13 and Luke 8:31-33, where the demons named Legion went into the swine. To me the swine represent the un-saved, the ones who reject Jesus. The swine were destroyed by running into the lake of water, in the very end the demons and demon spirits will be driven headlong into the lake of fire. When God does resurrect the dry bones of the house of Israel and breathes the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) into them, they will be a Holy Army of the Lord, an army of men after God’s own heart and will do all of God’s will. The demons that come out of the pit some will need bodies to possess and they will have an abundance at that time, demon possession of man on an unprecedented scale.

    To those that think the exceedingly great army is a metaphor, why can’t God do what He said He would do, literally? In Ezekiel 37:14, it says, “Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.”. Also look at is Genesis 1:1,”In the beginning,” the first of verse 3, “And God said”. Is your life or my life a metaphor?

    Don, do you think this great army might be the restraining force that keeps the Anti-Christ in check for a while? I was thinking that maybe after the Restrainer is removed when the Church is taken into Heaven that God would rise up this army.
41. Don says:

    January 24, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Joel,

    I am not sure what those that flee to the mountains will be doing as a resistance to the Antichrist for that 42 months. I do know that Revelation 12:17 says “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”.

    Ever wonder who destroys Babylon the Great (the kingdom of the Beast) but then allows the Antichrist and False prophet to gather the armies of the world against Jerusalem? Just the Medes???

    People want to put everything in a nice neat 7 year box where all fits their own conjectures but there may be much more to the story than we know.
42. Joel says:

    January 24, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Don, I think maybe that we can find all the pieces to the puzzle that is the end of days, but maybe God had no intention of us laying out exactly when or how many years each event is to take place. Just like when Jesus in Matthew 24:36, says, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.” And we are also to follow this in Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
43. Ann says:

    January 25, 2012 at 8:48 am

    Thanks so much Don (now I have to go back and regroup) One thing about Biblical end-times, one always has to keep in mind that as current events unfold that once we think we got it, we have to rethink that again. Or a least I do and it is refreshing. As far as Ez 38/39, is it not the one in Rev 20: 8…which is after the 1,000 years, right?

    Just FYI, remembered PM Netanyahu making this statement last year:

    Excerpt

    The leader of a Messianic Jewish ministry is pleased that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently proclaimed the fulfillment of the prophecy in Ezekiel, Chapter 37.

    Speaking on the recent 65th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz in Poland, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu proclaimed the fulfillment of the prophet Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of dry bones.

    Netanyahu said, “Armed with the Jewish spirit, the justice of man, and the vision of the prophets, we sprouted new branches and grew deep roots. Dry bones became covered with flesh, a spirit filled them, and they lived and stood on their own feet.”

    Jan Markell, founder and director of Olive Tree Ministries, comments that Netanyahu’s statement helps debunk the idea that modern Israel is just a secular country with no connection to ancient biblical prophecy.

    “There is a degree of spirituality in Israel, recently with this Benjamin Netanyahu saying that Ezekiel 37 is now fulfilled,” she notes. “So I’m encouraged when the top leader in the nation of Israel comes out and stands up for the Bible. This is absolutely tremendously good news.”
44. Ann says:

    January 25, 2012 at 8:48 am

    Sorry link on that

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=898508
45. Don says:

    January 25, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Ann

    Ezekiel 38 and 39 is not after the 1000 years. That dog won’t hunt.

    What Netanyahu said is just wishful thinking on the part of Netanyahu and some religious Jews. They believe Ezekiel 38 is the next prophetic event with there being no great tribulation or Antichrist in their future at all. Read the book of Joel and you should see why I say this return is not the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37.

    I agree with Jan that today’s Israel has a connection to ancient biblical prophecy but those that even believe their own scriptures in Israel are a small minority of Jews and without the Holy Spirit they certainly cannot discern scripture correctly and Netanyahu and his ilk do not.

    Ezekiel 37 has not been fulfilled yet even if someone believes the dry bones passage within is a metaphor fulfilling the partial return (but literally it is not).

    People should read the whole chapter before they claim that Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled. Clearly some of it, if not all of the book, has not been fulfilled even metaphorically. Verse 23-28 makes me 100 percent certain that the book is not yet fulfilled.
46. Ann says:

    January 25, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Thanks. One thing I have a difficult time getting over is why the end-time prophecies could not just be written sequential or chronological order for simple folks like me. And it would be just as difficult for the Jewish people to interpret the end times without believing Jesus as their Messiah. Seems both sides have legimate reasons but after all things considered, I just sort of put my thoughts on hold after studying and getting your input helps considerably. I really appreciate your always indepth analysis. And as Daniel said as time goes by knowledge will increase. Was the earlier interpretation that Gog was Turkey before the old USSR?

    One thing is the increase in media of Russia (Gog) getting involed with Iran, Libya. Of course they always probably have had connections there
47. Don says:

    January 25, 2012 at 11:32 am

    Ann,

    Prophecy and many mysteries in the Bible are made difficult so only the sons of light will see. Jesus spoke in parables for that reason.

    Some still think that Gog comes from Turkey but Russia really fits better. Turkey certainly will also be involved in this war but the Ezekiel 38 players are really another topic.
48. Fount says:

    January 25, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    A very interesting discussion. I am glad to contribute yet another point of view – one that hopefully consolidates many of the comments and observations. For one thing – a number of Ezekiel’s prophecies seem to be not yet completely fulfilled. For another – it seems that Ezekiel is writing in chronological order at times but yet there are difficulties in putting things together in a strict chronological way. Maybe scripture itself can guide us – because that is all there really is here…

    I see from Ezekiel 33:1 to 39:29 to be grouped together in time received by Ezekiel. His overall book seems to date from 593 BC to 562 BC. However, this 33 to 39 cluster seems to come in a back to back fashion starting in 586 BC. Chapter 40 then comes about 573 BC – so it is certainly unrelated in time to this cluster.

    I see 7 visions from God to Ezekiel (just look for the God said indicators at the beginning of each). Chapter 33:1-20 is one vision in two parts: watchmen of Israel in 1-9 and a message of righteousness in 10-20. This is right before the 586 BC fall of Jerusalem and was the last warning for ancient Israel.

    Vision two is 33:21-33. Restating that the land was giving them to because of Abraham but taken away because of their sins.

    Vision 3 is 34:1-31. God is telling them that their shepherds led them astray in 1-10. Part II (11-31)- God will give them the righteous shepherd Jesus and then speaks of what sounds like the millennial period. We can now see that while God is giving them seven visions for their future – the last five visions are yet open – to be fulfilled together in the millennial period He is promising the Hebrews.

    Vision 4 runs from 35:1 to 36:15. In Chapter 35 Mt Seir is prophesized against – this is the land of Esau – a mountain range associated with Edom. Currently the Muslims… God is telling of their once and for all destruction since they were against Israel for so long. Again to be fulfilled soon… In Chapter 36 the Mountain of Israel is prophesized against – they shall be desolated and into enemy hands – but to be restored completely towards the end – again to be completely fulfilled soon.

    Vision 5 starts in Chapter 36:16 and ends in verse 38. The house of Israel to be punished for their uncleanness – scattered everywhere (thru verse 25). Then to be rescued NOT because of their righteousness but because of His name (26 – 38) – a new heart and a new spirit promised (still be fulfilled)!

    Vision 6 catches us up to the Valley of the Dry Bones. We can now see in verses 1-4 they are all destroyed – for me images of the destruction caused by Nazi Germany in 1939 through 1945 – killing 6 million of the 9 million European Jews (was 17 million worldwide before WWII – after WWI – 11 million). Verses 5-14 is the second part – hope has been destroyed (sure – 6 million killed) – but God will bring them out of their tombs (Europe) and into the land of Israel. The land was named Palestine in 1945 and created anew as Israel in 1948. My spirit will be upon you – as of 2010 Israel has 469k Haredim (ultra orthodox), 682k orthodox and 762k religious – traditionalists (right at 2 mm observant Jews). Starting from only 650k in 1948 this qualifies as a pouring out in these generally apostate-filled last days. The third part is verses 15-27 as Judah & Israel are re-joined (the ancient northern land which split off in the mid 10th century BC – reunited with the southern kingdom of Israel) – into one land of Israel.

    We then come to the 7th vision – chapters 38 & 39. Part 1 (38:1-15) speaks of the nations gathering for war against Israel (today’s time!). Part 2 (38:16-23)tells of the Gog / Magog invasion at the later end of days – so all shall know God is God. A giant earthquake also occurs – I associate this with the earthquake of the 6th seal of Revelation. Part 3 (39:1-5)tells Gog their fate is sealed with their invasion (catching up to vision 4 against Seir). Part 4 (39:6-20) the Lord sends fire on Gog (see the rest of the sixth seal in Revelation for more seemingly corresponding details). Part 5 (39:21-39) is Israel being restored to the land and to God – again so that the whole world will know God is God.

    So the last part of vision 7 finishes Ezekiel’s visions – with the end of visions 3 thru 7 seemingly coming together with the Day of the Lord – preceding the millennial period in which they will prosper in the land under the leadership of the Shepherd of David (Jesus) as their Christ / Messiah!

    Looking forward to the comments…
49. Don says:

    January 25, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    Fount,

    Interesting, but I do not agree with your interpretation of vision 6. It is all subjective reasoning to justify your belief that the first half of Ezekiel 37 is a metaphor. Your interpretation is a prime example of the problems with allegorical interpretations. With allegory the meaning becomes whatever the interpreter wants it to be – whatever the story teller thinks fits. So, how do you even argue from scripture with what is not said? I also want any follow-up comments to remain on chapter Ezekiel 37 unless it is related.
50. Fount says:

    January 25, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Seven visions in a row. Five of them partially fulfilled but completely unfulfiled as yet. Some literal, some metaphors (like Mt Seir is a metaphor for Islam and the graves from Germany). All of the unfulled ones come to completion with the coming of Jesus – and how do I argue from scripture what is not said?
51. Don says:

    January 25, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    Fount,

    I am saying your interpretation of Ezekiel 37 is just a story that you or someone else created based on your belief that the first part of Ezekiel 37 is a metaphor. There is no reason other than your own subjective reasoning to believe that Ezekiel 37 is talking about the world war II Holocaust. I think the passage implies that the whole house of Israel will be brought back to the Land and not just from the graves of Europe. When did the slain in Europe ever live again as said in vs 9-10? The breathe is on the whole house of Israel not just on some Jews.

    By the way, Mt Seir is not a metaphor for Islam and I disagree with some of what you said on the other books but that is a different topic.
52. David Little - Canada says:

    January 25, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    Fount:
    Sticking to chapter 37.

    Filling in the blanks with “this is the msost likely” is dangerous. Look at all those who tried to interpret such passages pre 1948 before the Isreali nation was formed again.

    “but God will bring them out of their tombs (Europe) and into the land of Israel.” Now as I stated before this could be a metaphor or like Don proposes it could also be literal or both. As yes it is challenging to reconcile this Vast Army and Whole House statments because where do they come from and what brings them there? Are they instant fullfillments or are they progressive? The wording and imagery does appear immediate so I think one needs to consider carefully Don’s thoughts here.

    “My spirit will be upon you – as of 2010 Israel has 469k Haredim (ultra orthodox), 682k orthodox and 762k religious – traditionalists (right at 2 mm observant Jews). Starting from only 650k in 1948 this qualifies as a pouring out in these generally apostate-filled last days.”
    Here I have to totally disagree with you. If God is pouring out His Spirit on them would they not be spirit filled believers in Christ?? You are stretching things here and are forgetting very essential truths. 20 million Jews performing OT sacrifices would still not equate a pouring out of God’s spirit when they are still wandering spiritually lost. Just a fraction of Iraelies have come to a saving knowledge in Christ.
    This would be equal to saying that all who attend any remotely biblically based organizations (churches/cults)as having God’s spirit poured out on them. Would you even attempt to declare that North Americia is solidly Christian?? Just because something is the lesser of two evils doesn’t make it righteous. Yes a small attempt at a play on words, lol.

    I’ll copy Don’s previous suggestions to me for you
    “Missler has good audio’s and study notes on Daniel and Ezekiel. Also check out A. Bloomfield and D. Jeremiah on Daniel.”
53. ~David says:

    January 25, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    Don,

    Is it possible that you might some day do a commentary on Ezekiel prophecies ?
54. Don says:

    January 25, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    ~David

    People like Chuck Missler have the resources. I would have to quit blogging to write a commentary on Ezekiel like I did on Revelation (that took one year when I did not blog). Much of the timing is too speculative anyway, so I will just give my view on certain parts of Ezekiel if and when it seems appropriate.
55. Brian from Oz says:

    January 25, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    Someone somewhere made the comment that the first world war was used to prepare the land (Palestine)for the people (Israel, the second world war was used to prepare the people for the land.

    I think Ezekiel 37 is best viewed as part of this preparation – a work in progress, a work which started in 1948 and ends with the allocation of the land to the regathered tribes at the beginning of the millennium, shown in Chapter 48.

    In the near future the Gog invasion and other end-time events will be slotted into that work, as a necessary part of that work.
56. Fount says:

    January 26, 2012 at 12:37 am

    David

    Our Jesus was a Jew who was born of the chosen people – the Jews. He was and always will be a King & Shepherd from David’s line. Nothing in the Bible takes away the eternal promises God has given those particular chosen people. So His spirit being poured out among them today is certainly a good thing. They must first believe in God – which 2 million of them currently do. And as they have belief in Him – they will soon have belief in His Messiah to them – our Jesus. God said in Ezekiel 37 “I will put my spirit in you and you shall live.” (The reasons for that are given in Ezekiel 38 & 39 but we are forbidden about talking about that adjacent and related scripture because of a decision of an Archbishop of Canterbury in the 1200s…)

    My point is not at all equivalent to people attending Christian churches and not being believers in Christ. (Untold numbers of Jewish people are in the Bosom of Abraham right now – because they believed in God – not because they believed in Jesus.) As to the Christianity level of America – I am projecting that 1/2 of all those on the Christian “membership rolls” worldwide will be left behind when Jesus comes – because they don’t have His spirit in them. (Jesus himself seems to back that prediction.)

    I appreciate the references you are pointing me too but I am already knowledgeable about Ezekiel and Daniel as I have been studying both of them since the 1980s.
57. Don says:

    January 26, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Fount,

    Oh come on! God’s spirit is not now poured out on the Jews. If they knew God they would know the Son who is God’s express image.

    You think God is going to pour out His Spirit on them and then send them into Jacob’s trouble – the great tribulation, where they actually do find Him? This is nonsense. The end of the Ezekiel 37 is clearly talking about the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise to the whole house of Israel. The Lord they will know in the bones passage is the same Lord of verses 23-28 when the Spirit really is poured out.

    You sound like one of these christian Zionist apologists that I wrote about in the article that think there is no Antichrist coming because Israel is already in God’s will. God would not have to send two prophets and the 144,000 to Israel if they already knew Him.

    Your idea of Jews believing in God is like the belief of the Pharisees. Yet, they missed God even through He lived among them. Jesus called them blind vipers of their father the Devil. Knowing God is knowing the real God not some false concept of God. Islam knows their version of God but he is not YHWH/Yeshua and neither is there a God to be known by man apart from His Son.

    As for everyone claiming to be true Christians not being true Christians, that is obvious, but that does not make for an argument that those that practice the Jewish religion have the Spirit of God.

    Unless you can show me from scripture where God has already given His spirit to those who have not accepted Christ, I think enough scripturally unfounded conjectures have been said. And some claim that Christians are forbidden to talk about related scriptures is crap. Christians are not bound to discuss scripture by decrees of humans.
58. Al says:

    January 26, 2012 at 11:35 am

    If theses scriptures aren’t enough evidence that the “vineyard”, ”Temple” were taken away from Israel then your deluding yourself. Obviously you must know that the Vineyard and the temple represent the Jews in union with the God who established these things. Thus… being in the midst of them.
    It is clear that Israel is not yet Spirit filled. The new temple is Jesus living in each and very one of us individually who is born of the spirit. The vineyard belongs to all people of all nations who freely accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Don I think you yourself mentioned that one cannot even go around Israel and publicly preach the Gospel (Jesus the messiah) to Jews without facing fine or arrest. What spirit is that but a spirit of antichrist.

    ———————
    Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    ——————–
    Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
59. Brian from Oz says:

    January 28, 2012 at 3:51 am

    Don

    Whilst reading the following article http://www.carolineglick.com “The Zionist Imperative” and in respect to my understanding of the future regathering of Israel, I was forcibly struck by the similarity of the European Jews of the 1920-30s to the Jews of the USA today.

    A Nazi driven holocaust is no different than a Stalinist pogrom – or a future New Age socialist/humanist persecution. It is clear from the rise of socialist fascism throughout the western world that such horrors await those Jewish people who will not recognise their historic religious ties to the promised land or to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
60. Brian from Oz says:

    January 28, 2012 at 3:56 am

    I must amend my last comment a little. The is a difference between a Nazi driven holocaust and a Stalinist pogrom, but only in the number killed and system used.
61. Eduardo says:

    January 28, 2012 at 7:52 am

    Don,

    I don´t think that this passage is talking about physical resurrection.

    God himself gives us the key to the interpretation of this passage whan he says to Ezekiel: this bones are the whole house of Israel. And then he says, “they say, our bones are dried”. Who is saying this? The whole house of Israel in exile. (Or is it the dead in battle who were hoping to be resurrected? No, it is the alive in exile) They were saying: we are dead, we have no hope, we have been eliminated. It is difficult for us to imagine all that these people had been through. Reading Lamentations, the book before Ezekiel, we can have a glimpse in what were the sorrows of a saint for his people. Now this lamentation of those in exile was almost a sin. They were not taking into account the great love of God, his forgiveness and his promises of restoration. We are dead, they said. So this passage is not about the resurrection of the dead but about the “resurrection” of the “dead”: the coming back of Israel as a nation. We can also see that the topic which is been spoken about in the chapters before is the same issue of national restoration. So taking this passage into the context of the surrounding chapters and the book itself, we can be sure about the normal interpretation of the passage.

    My opinion can sound as boring or conservative, but that is what can normally be interpreted.
62. Don says:

    January 28, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Eduardo,

    The object of God’s message is the whole house of Israel and the ones saying our bones are dried are the same. There is no reason from the passage to believe it is just talking about those in exile returning when it is talking about the whole house of Israel. The chapters before this in Ezekiel 36 are talking about many things related to the end times.

    Your opinion is a valid one but believing it is a metaphor for the return of Israel cannot be determined from a literal reading of the passage. Nor can the partial partial return we see today fulfill the metaphor as some have suggested.
63. Eduardo says:

    January 28, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Yeah, you could be right. But the resurrection could be a metaphor of “bringing them back to life” as a nation. Remmember, they are saying they are dead, and God is saying that the dried bones is the whole house of Israel.

    If the resurrection is literal and it occurs before the restoration of Israel, then we have to study the times and those involved in being resurrected. The church is resurrected at the rapture: does this include the saints of the old Testament? If it does, than: Is God going to resurrect Israelite unbelievers to repopulate the land and give them a second chance? In this case, is the resurrection a “resucitation” (meaning same corporal mortal body as before)? Does the word of God speak about this “resucitation” elsewhere with clarity?

    There are a lot of new questions waiting to be answered.

    Let’s see if this new teaching supports the weight of time.
64. Don says:

    January 28, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Eduardo,

    Obviously the metaphor interpretation has been the usual interpretation but that does not mean it is correct. It would not be taken as a metaphor unless people wanted to see it as a metaphor. They may be the correct view, but I give a couple of scriptural references why I believe it could be literal.

    Whatever the truth, my real problem is those that see this partial return today as the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37.

    I never said the resurrection occurs before the restoration of Israel. I am suggesting that the resurrection of Israel marks the beginning of the restoration of Israel.

    Who gets Raptured and when, varies so much among believers that I do not even want to get into that in this thread.

    Revelation says those that those that did not take the Mark of the Beast will live with Jesus again for one thousand years. Whether those that did not take the Mark will be risen as immortals, or as natural beings as Lazarus was is speculative.

    Rather than looking at this as giving them a second chance, I think Israel as a nation needs to fulfill why God created them to be a Holy Nation of priests on the earth in the first place. They could not do it without their Messiah but they rejected Him. When He comes again they will have to fulfill their millennial purpose just as if they accepted Him the first time. This is probably the whole reason for the millennial reign, otherwise why not just go into eternity? That is why Ezekiel 40-48 describes a restored kingdom very much like ancient Israel except they will have God’s Spirit and God’s Messiah to guide them. The millennial reign must restore paradise lost.

    A literal view of the bones passage is not a new teaching, it just has not been the usual one.
65. Fount says:

    January 28, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Quite interesting that I had such a vigorous pushback on my claim that God is currently pouring His spirit out on Israel just as the words say in Ezekiel chapter 37. Let’s look at the specific verse I am speaking of – Ezekiel 37:14 – “And I will put my spirit into you, and you shall live. And I will put you upon your land, and you shall know that I the LORD have spoken, and I will act, says the LORD.” (quoting the LXX version)

    Here “into” is from the Greek word “eis” meaning “to” or “into”. So God is putting His spirit into the Hebrews in verse 14. What spirit? “My spirit” comes from the Greek words 4151 and 1473 meaning “pneuma” (“a current of air” or “a spirit”) & “ego” (meaning “I”). So clearly God is saying His spirit (which we call the Holy Spirit) is going into the Jews. Can we limit where God puts His spirit?

    Fortunately for us, we as Christians have all had God put His spirit into us – it is a mark of our belief in Jesus as our Christ. So God is saying He is putting that same spirit into the Jews and then moving them back to their land! I am saying this has already happened since so many Jews are back in their land AND are becoming believers in the TANAKH. Yes – the TANAKH is simply the OT of our Bible – but it is nevertheless pointing them towards the same God which we believe in and serve. That at the least makes us cousins in the Holy Spirit (remember we are the ones grafted in to their natural vine).

    I would agree they aren’t “saved” yet. That doesn’t make them of the Devil as some people said! I would simply say the Spirit is not fully finished with them yet (is He finished with you yet?). Just like my own calling – I confessed my faith in Jesus at 12 only because of the urging of the Holy Spirit. I would not submit to water baptism until I was 25 because I wanted to live in my own way (which was certainly not the pattern God wanted me to live out). Even then I was not a true believer of Jesus as my Christ and did not receive the Holy Spirit baptism until I was 28 (three more years of bad living…).

    So I rebut the angry comments as I clearly see the Jews as having God’s Spirit in them – just like I did at 12 – but not fully yet (as I gracefully fully received at 28). They are stubborn and hard hearted just as I was (and I suspect more than a few of you were too). They wouldn’t be coming back to the faith of their long ago fathers in the TANAKH – worshipping the one true God from the Shema – unless it was His Spirit calling them. After all – NONE of us got to Him without His spirit calling us…

    Note that verse 14 is after verse 12. “On account of this prophesy and say! Thus says the Lord the LORD; Behold, I shall open your tombs, and I shall lead you from out of your tombs, and I will bring you into the land of Israel.” I see this opening of their tombs and leading them out of them as rescuing them from their prison camps and their other deadly environments through His use of the Allied armies overcoming the Axis armies (surely of the Devil). I think any survivor of Auschwitz [7,500 from there and the 20,000 from the transfer to Bergen Belsen] would have little grievance with me saying they were rescued from their tomb (as we would say today “literally rescued”). I would dare say the Jews living outside of the concentration camps in 1945 would generally also say we rescued them from certain death. I see this as a very adequate literal fulfillment of the passage – as opposed to a lot of Jews being physically resurrected in a first half of the rapture looking event.

    After all that – they were put upon their land by God in 1948 – so the rescue must have come before that (1945).

    May we all come to the full knowledge of the meaning of God’s word…
66. Don says:

    January 28, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Fount,

    All that and you really have told us nothing new.

    We obviously do not believe that God is putting his Holy Spirit in Israel at this time. Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Until Israel excepts Jesus them cannot know the Father. I think the scriptures are clear on this.

    Water baptism never saved anyone. There is one Baptism not two stage baptisms. Jesus Baptizes believers with the Holy Spirit when they repent and believe (luk 3:16). All the water part is just an outward expression of what already happened in the spirit.

    You say that God is putting his Spirit in Jews as he brings them back to the Land but the true Messiah of Israel cannot even be taught to Jews in the Land. The religious Jews are still expecting their Messiah to come who will turn out to be an Antichrist.

    We already heard your allegory that the Tombs are Europe and I for one simply do not buy into it. It is nothing but a rationalization it does not fulfill the passage.

    With all do respect, I think you have a bit of wishful thinking and that you are trying to shoehorn prophecies to fit your own hope that Israel is now being restored. However, they have not accepted Christ so what is left for them is what the prophecies declare in many more books that just Ezekiel. They are to go through the worst time on earth that this world has or will ever know. It is called the great tribulation, Jacob’s trouble, the great and terrible day of the Lord with the terrible persecution from the Antichrist. When Israel has no more hope in themselves and they acknowledge their offense and say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord Jesus will come save them.
67. Brian from Oz says:

    January 28, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    Fount

    You write:
    “Fortunately for us, we as Christians have all had God put His spirit into us – it is a mark of our belief in Jesus as our Christ. So God is saying He is putting that same spirit into the Jews and then moving them back to their land!”

    The filling of the Spirit, which every true Christian experiences, is not the same administration as we see in Ezekiel 37. If it were, and if it pertained to the situation as you claim, all Jews who have been brought back to Israel would also be ‘born again’ and this is obviously not the case.

    Your further comment “I would agree they aren’t “saved” yet” does nothing to counter your first assertion of it being the same dispensation of the spirit. If the giving of the Spirit is the same in both cases the current population of Israel must be ‘born again’, or nobody is.
68. Fount says:

    January 28, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    What I am saying is that I believe God has raised them up from “their tombs”, filled them with His Spirit and brought them back into the land.

    That statement is pretty literal stuff. In 1944 all they had was tombs and threat of tombs in Europe. By 1945 2 out of every 3 of them (6 million of them) were actually in tombs in Europe while the rest of them were rescued from their own future tombs. God started filling some of those Jews with His spirit. In 1948 they under the jurisdiction of the UN they recreated “Israel”. This is the name of the land God said He would bring them back into – that one land named Israel in Ezekiel 37. The only thing that remains from chapter 37 is the “one King” which will be the shepherd of David (we call Him Jesus).

    So now let’s look at “literal”. There were only about 650,000 Jews in the land in 1948. There are now 5.9 million at the end of 2011. That means they grew by 808% over the last 63 years – up 5.25 million Jews in that time. That is a pretty literal event of bringing them back (2.7 million of them have arrived from 130 countries over those years) into a literally brand new country named Israel (named that way for the first time since 135 AD). Can they do that again in the future as Don is saying?

    Now in the rest of the world today there are 6.5 million Jews in the US and 1 million in all other lands. That means – as Don is saying – if the Jews are brought back into the land in the future the maximum they could grow if every Jew left America and moved to Israel is by 6.5 million – only 110% growth is still possible. I see the literal much better served by the growth of 808% based on immigration from 130 countries than the future almost impossible growth of every Jew moving to Israel resulting in only 110% growth from only 32 other countries they live in today (and Jews have already moved to Israel from all of those 32 countries so you could make a case there are NO more countries they could move in from besides the original 130).

    Also, some of you guys seem to be making God too small. Is there only ONE way He can give His spirit to people? I believe He can “dipensate” anyway He wants to (after all He has changed His Holy Spirit interaction with mankind many times in our past already). Remember that in the last days He will be pouring out His spirit… Not everyone becomes a saved Christian when first encountering His spirit. The Jews are receiving His spirit in their own current dispensation way. There are many OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled and the Jews will be in a position to perfectly complete those events as followers of the true Messiah during His 1,000 year reign (including the whole Ezekiel 40 – 48 discussion).

    I certainly agree that the Jews don’t have a clear understanding of their Messiah yet (I have had a Jewish roommate & been business partners with a number of Jews). But I assert more will become Messianic Jews once Ezekiel’s 38 & 39 war hits (God says He does that deliverance so that they may believe in Him). However, they will still then be spiritually blind enough (at least at the leadership level) to sign a 7 year peace treaty with the anti Christ. Then from Zechariah 13 – Jesus restores the land (by defeating the anti Christ) but not before 2/3s of them will die during that epic struggle.

    How about that for another example of literal? There are now 6 million Jews in Israel – 2/3 of them will die during the period from the Ezekiel 38 & 39 war to the defeat of the anti Christ period. (In the exact same ratio as they died during the first holocaust in Europe last century.) That leaves 2 million Jews when Christ begins His millenial reign. There are currently 2 million Tanakh believing Jews in Israel. Wanna bet most of those of currently have faith in God will be the same ones that become the 2 million who still have faith in God but now add Jesus as their Messiah?
69. Don says:

    January 28, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    Fount,

    I think we know what you have been saying you have said it now at least three times now.

    I was not saying that God is going to bring the Jews back to the Land again as if they will go into the nations and then come back out. Most Jews will be killed in the great tribulation but after this God will bring back ALL Jews from from every nation (after Jacob’s trouble, the 70th week of Daniel is completed).

    I am not saying there will only be only a few million Jews to populate the Kingdom as you seem to believe yourself. I am saying all Jews written in the book will be raise up. The whole elect house of Israel, and they will be an exceedingly great army like Ezekiel 37 says.

    Yeah, there is only one way God will give His Holy Spirit to people, and that is the way God said He would. Through His Son. Jesus is God you know. They have to come to the Father through Him.

    God is working through one dispensational method at a time. The Temple was destroyed, We are still in the Church dispensation until the fulness of the Gentiles comed in. God will return to finish the 70th week with the Jews after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Nobody is denying that there is not a future restoration of Israel but not before the Great tribulation and the Antichrist. Read Joel the day of the Lord is more than just making a covenant with the Antichrist. Israel will be almost decimated in the Great tribulation. In fact if Jesus did not shorten the days for the sake of the elect no flesh would even survive.

    The pouring out of God’s Spirit is two fold, since Pentecost it is to all that entered the New Covenant through the New Covenant
    Christ and it is to Israel after the tribulation of those days when they accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King. There is no Holy Spirit being poured out on Israel today unless they become believers in Jesus Christ.

    I agree that most of the religious Jews will be the ones that flee the Antichrist and will be refined through the fire, but understand they are obeying the teaching of the 2 Jewish prophets and the 144,000 after God is dealing with Israel again. This happens in the last week of years of Israel’s transgression. Israel has not even started the 70th weeks of years yet.
70. Brian from Oz says:

    January 29, 2012 at 12:03 am

    “Also, some of you guys seem to be making God too small. Is there only ONE way He can give His spirit to people?”

    In the dispensation of the Church (since Pentecost and until the Rapture) the Holy Spirit’s ministry to the ungodly is, according to the Lord Jesus, to convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement (John 16:8). His ministry to those who are convicted and turn to Christ is to regenerate (born again) to baptise into union with Christ, and to lead into all truth.

    The Jews today are as much in need of repentance as any other unregenerate person and if they are convicted by the Holy Spirit and turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation, they too will be, born again, experience union with Christ, and know the eternal truths of the Scriptures.

    To look for further ways the Holy Spirit dwells, fills, or otherwise deals with humanity is to go beyond Scripture.
71. Phil Mayo says:

    January 29, 2012 at 3:13 am

    Fount.

    I think you might be missing a scripture in your consideration of God’s process of bringing the Jews back to Israel. Ezekiel 36:22 says God is gathering the Jews back into the land “for his names sake”. If you read it in context it is clear God isn’t bringing them back because they fulfil any spiritual requirement.

    I don’t think you are right about the spirit. I am more inclined to believe this to mean breathing new life into them as a nation. A metaphoric, rather than literal meaning.

    I do expect most of those Jews you mention living in the USA, and elsewhere in the world to be heading for Israel in the near future. I think this is partly what the current economic crisis is about. Its also part of the reason I think we will soon see an expansion of Israel’s land holding as a result of the Psalm 83 war.
72. David Little - Canada says:

    January 29, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    Fount,

    {capitals for emphasis, i’m not shouting.. }
    Simply put God’s doesn’t force His Spirit into us. It is a gift based purely on faith in Jesus and repentance from living life apart from God. Yes from there we learn and grow, but we have His Spirit because we BELIEVED and CONFESSED Christ as Lord.

    Yes some Jews have believed but NOT the WHOLE HOUSE and that here is the key literal point being made here.

    So BELIEF + CONFESSION = His Spirit in me
    Therefore NO BELIEF + NO CONFESSION = NO SPIRIT. I do not see how you can side step this absolute basic conerstone of truth.

    Mt 10:32 “Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

    Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;

    1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the [spirit] of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

    Respectfully you may have a lot of knowledge but sometimes that can just get us stuck in a direction and when you start doubling back on the absolutes of these previous verses it is time to simply and humbly re-evaluate the direction. You are incorrectly using pouring out and having His Spirit in us they are not inclusive I still have a choice to make. Each human being has a choice to make. Every Jew has a choice to make before he/she can truly recieve God’s Spirit.

    Yes what has happened to the Jews is both tragic and a sign of God’s continual faithfulness, but it is not the conclusion of the story and I for one think that what God will do in the End Times nothing short of mind blowing. The Jews coming back to the Land is great, but isn’t it just perhaps too small?? Why is 808% growth enough of a number to satisfy this question? Maybe it has to be 5000%??? Or maybe more??? They may be a strong army but are they the army that God showed Exekiel? I think Don puts forth a very good arguement here. Perhaps we have jumped the gun, hmm? It is not like believers have not made that mistake before.

    Also could one not also agrue that in the truest sense man (governemts) brough the nation into existance?? For it to be of God and by God then I guess in my heart I expect something along the lines of the Exodus and what God did there to bring out His people. God did it! Everyone knew it was from God and the news traveled the world.

    Again I think we have to consider that this may both be liternal and spiritual meaning. God will not breath life into them only physically for what would be the point. He wants them to experience Salvation through the Messiah for this is the true life which Christ came to give abundantly to all those who believe to the Jew and Gentile!!!!

    Never, never let go of this.. BELIEVE + CONFESS is how we recieve Salvation and the Holy Spirit!!
73. Don says:

    January 29, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    David little,

    I have been saying that perhaps the UN allowed the creation of Israel before the time for a reason (and we know who controls the UN) so Jews can be killed in a very small local.

    Could it be that this human induced return is a Satanic attempt to get Jews all in one area of the world so they can be killed there? Arab’s and Islamist’s might like to think so. Of course God will fulfill his own unconditional covenants and save a remnant of Israel for His own name sake….just food for thought.

    I would add this thought as well to what you said. Perhaps the way God will bring back Israel from the nations is through the two prophets and perhaps that is why the two prophets have the power to judge the nations as often as they wish and nobody can harm them. Perhaps there will be a second Jewish exodus? In fact most think Moses will be one of the two prophets, so it fits. (let my people go?)

    Perhaps the nations like Israel will have no choice but to let them go or receive judgement, but after the prophets are killed the world will attack Israel much like Egypt did because Moses directs that they also take a lot of the wealth of these nations with them. (that might even make Gog coming down against Israel to take a spoil make sense). The Bible has literally fulfilled “types” of the past and these “types” also point to events in the future. Perhaps we can look back in scripture for future fulfillment of Bible prophecy. There is nothing new under the sun.
74. Don says:

    January 29, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    ~David misunderstood and asked that the last comment be removed, so I deleted it
75. Brian from Oz says:

    January 30, 2012 at 2:45 am

    Artaxerxes Longimanus was the UN of his day so we can still appreciate God’s hand being in the re-establishment of Israel last century.
76. Phil Mayo says:

    January 30, 2012 at 5:28 am

    Brian.

    That’s one of the long-standing mistakes carved into the stone of Bible commentary. Artaxerxes Longimanus was not the king who gave the order to build Jerusalem. That order was given by Cyrus.

    “That says of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, you shall be built; and to the temple, your foundation shall be laid”. Isaiah 44:28

    Decrees made by Medo-Persian kings were irrevocable. They couldn’t even be changed by the king who made them. Evidenced by Darius’s inability to save Daniel from the consequences of the decree he made.

    Artaxerxes Longimanus merely ordered the fulfilment of a decree made by his predecessor. A reiteration of the original command.
77. Phil Mayo says:

    January 30, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Just found this post. It gives some interesting statistics regarding the spiritual condition of Israel.

    http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/half-of-the-jews-in-israel-waits-for-the-messiah/
78. Brian from Oz says:

    January 30, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Hi Phil

    I stand corrected.

    You however would have to admit Artaxerxes Longimanus must have given some sort of an order. That ‘order’ seems to blind one to the original decree, especially prophecy buffs and lovers of Daniel’s 70 week vision.

    Read the post: Rather heartening.
79. Fount says:

    January 31, 2012 at 10:53 am

    I have been in disagreement with Don as to Ezekiel 37 showing a literal resurrection of all the dead of Israel. For me it just doesn’t fit – a resurrection for the Jews is not mentioned anywhere else – and when would it come? Before they are restored to the land – where in Ezekiel 38 & 39 they are immediately slaughtered (2 out of 3 die?) Then the millennial period of Ezekiel 40 – 48…

    However, my thoughts upon it previously were also looking at this Chapter 37 as a literal metaphor – bringing them out the death and destruction (tombs if you will) of World War II Germany. The historical facts of the creation of Israel in 1948 and the massive subsequent immigration of nearly 3 million Jews from 130 countries also seem to well support that thought.

    After receiving so much pushback on my thoughts – I took it the Lord in prayer. This is what came to my mind after that time of prayer. Jesus quoted in Matthew 23:27 in speaking to the spiritual leaders of Israel in His day – “you are like whitewashed tombs”. Tombs! The underlying Greek word is “taphos” (Strong’s 5028) – meaning grave – translated as sepluchre 6x and tomb 1x.

    Now let’s take another look at Ezekiel 37. Verse 11 – “bones are the whole house of Israel” (obviously at no point in time has the “whole house of Israel” all been physically dead). Verse 12 – “I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves.” Verse 13 – “when I have opened your graves” & “caused you to come up out of your graves”. The word that seems to have drawn Don to a literal resurrection is the word graves – our normal current day English meaning of graves (meaning dead and buried below ground).

    However, let’s look to the Septuagint (LXX) for the Greek of Ezekiel 37 about graves. In verse 12 of the LXX it says tombs twice – not graves twice (like the modern English translations usually do). Then in verse 13 of the LXX it does say graves twice. The Greek for tombs in verse 12 is “mnema” (Strong’s 3418) meaning memorial or monument and translated as selpulchre 4x, tomb 2x and grave 1x in the KJV. In verse 13 the Greek used is “taphos” (Strong’s 5028) meaning grave and translated sepulchure 6x and tomb 1x in the KJV.

    So of the 4 occurances of “grave” in our modern English translations of verses 12 & 13 we see them ALL best translated as sepulchure. This is the same word that Jesus used in Matthew to speak to the Jewish spiritual leaders who were wrong – they were “like” sepulchures!

    God then says He will put His spirit in them when He calls them out of their “sepulchures” – which is the correct fix for those spiritually dead Jews. They then go on to resettle Israel in mass for the first time since 135 AD.

    I know I probably won’t convince anyone on here with this teaching – but I do thank you all for driving me closer to the Lord to get a meaning that I can better understand, believe in and scripturally defend..

    On to the next discussion!
80. Don says:

    January 31, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Fount,

    How can you say that a resurrection for the Jews is not mentioned anywhere else when I quoted scripture in the post that actually says or suggests that there will be a resurrection?

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Dan 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. (NKJV)

    I also told you when it could occur. After the tribulation of those days but before the millennial kingdom.

    Your assuming that Ezekiel 37 occurs prior to Ezekiel 38. I have said in the post that I think that Ezekiel 34-37 are not sequential prophecies but are parallel prophecies that include different focus or points on the same time period. All start with Israel estranged from God and all end in a millennial restoration. The exception is 35 & 38-39 but 35 is talking about the destruction of Edom just prior to the restoration. Ezkeiel 38-39 talks about God dealing with enemies of Israel prior to the restoration. That does not mean that 37 is chronologically before Ezekiel 38-39. in fact Ezekiel 37 could occur just after the Gog war but before the end of the chapter.

    What in the world does Matt 23:37 have to do with Ezekiel 37? Jesus was clearly using whitewashed tombs to contrasting the outward appearance of pharisees to the Jews, compared to their spiritual deadness in God’s eyes. Further, Jesus certainly was not talking about the whole house of Israel in Matt 23;37, many Jews received him.
    When you include Scripture from elsewhere to make a point you need to take the scripture in context and the Scripture actually needs to support the other passage that you are explaining. Otherwise, one can come up with all kinds of strange conjectures.

    You want to parse the difference between graves, tombs and sepulchers but they would represent the same thing in Ezekiel 37 – the dead of Israel. Then you add presumption and presumption together and come up with shear conjecture. Which just proves any conjecture is possible if you spend enough time trying to find meanings in scripture without regard to context just to try to prove your point.
81. David Little - Canada says:

    January 31, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    I can appreciate the amount of time you put into an arguement Fount and I do not disagree that this may also be a metephor of the Jewish nation coming out of “tombs”, but I am reluctant to tie it to a single event like WWII even though it was horendous.

    My biggest objection was regarding that when God’s Spirit does get put into them then I can only see that as them becoming full followers of Jesus Christ.

    Thanks to everyone as well for helping me think hard and stayng grounded.
82. Shaikh says:

    February 17, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    I am extremely confused whether or not the 1948 Creation of the State of Israel is a fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy since I have both sides of the argument.

    Those that disbelieve say that God gave the land to the Jews conditional based upon obedience and NOT as an UNCONDITIONAL GIFT (Deut. 4:25-31, Deut. 11:18-21, Deut. 29:24-29, Deut. 30:15-20, 2 Kings 21:8, Jer. 7:5-7, Jer. 16:10-13, Nehemiah 1:8-9).

    I personally don’t believe the Land Covenant was ever UNCONDITIONAL, since YAHUWEH HIMSELF exiled the Jews from the land a number of times, especially in Nehemiah 1:8-9 God said He would cast Jews into exile.

    My question is if the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living in the land how the heck are they able to live in the land despite being a disobedient and unbelieving nation???? Can somebody please help????

    Even according to the Rules of the Old Covenant, Israeli Jews are not a righteous nation since 80% of Israelis are SECULAR JEWS! This something an Orthodox Jewish girl told me.
83. Don says:

    February 17, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Shaikh,

    One possible answer is the 430 years of inequity that Israel would bear under the Gentiles as written in Ezekiel 4:3-6 was fulfilled in 1948.

    Ezekiel laid on his sides for a total of 430 days. Each day in this Ezekiel passages was said to represent a year. 70 years had been paid in the Babylon captivity. There is no record of the 360 years ever being literally fulfilled.

    Here is the key.
    God warned Israel they would receive 7 times the punishment (lev 26:18) if after she was punished she would did repent and obey.

    The first captivity ended in 536 BC but Israel did not repent of sin after the 70 years of captivity, the vast majority were so faithless they would not even return.

    So they get 7 x 360 = 2520 years before their nation is restored from that 536 BC disobedience. If you use 360 day biblical lunar years the time will have expired in 1948. The year Israel became a state again. (2,520x 360 = 907,200 days or 2483.8 of our solar years remember to adjust a year for BC to AD because there is no year zero.)
84. Shaikh says:

    February 17, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    IF I understand you correctly, God restored Israel in 536 BC, despite Israel being in a state of disobedience and disbelief, as well as unrepentant? Just asking for clarification.
85. Don says:

    February 17, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Shaikh,

    No. Israel could have been restored in 536 BC as a state but she was not until 1948
86. Shaikh says:

    February 17, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    Throughout the Old Testament God always kept repentance as a prerequisite of restoration to the land, why were things different for Israel in the 20th century? I’m SERIOUSLY not trying debate or anything, but genuinely trying to understand this concept.
87. Don says:

    February 17, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    Shaikh, I just told you they did not have national restoration. Your question quota is up for the day. I have to run.
88. Ann says:

    February 18, 2012 at 4:53 am

    There are plenty of Scriptures that prove the restoration of Israel and the covenant will be fulfilled; no matter what the Jewish people have done, that promise was never taken away:

    Below is a list of important Bible verses which reference the restoration of Israel as a nation in the last days.

    These verses were prophetic in nature and foretold events which took place between 1880 and 1948, as well as events yet to come.

    Understanding them is essential to understanding the meaning of the times in which we live:

    “He will raise a flag among the nations for Israel to rally around. He will gather the scattered people of Judah from the ends of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12 (NLT)

    “The time is coming when my people will take root. Israel will bud and blossom and fill the whole earth with her fruit!” Isaiah 27:6 (NLT)

    “‘Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from east and west and from north and south. I will bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth. All who claim me as their God will come, for I have made them for my glory. It was I who created them.” Isaiah 43:5-7 (NLT)

    “Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem’s birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth.” Isaiah 66:8 (NLT)

    “‘But the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when people who are taking an oath will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.’ Instead, they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.’ For I will bring them back to this land that I gave their ancestors.” Jeremiah 16:14-15 (NLT)

    “‘But I will gather together the remnant of my flock from wherever I have driven them. I will bring them back into their own fold, and they will be fruitful and increase in number. Then I will appoint responsible shepherds to care for them, and they will never be afraid again. Not a single one of them will be lost or missing,’ says the Lord.

    ‘For the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will place a righteous Branch on King David’s throne. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this is his name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety.

    ‘In that day,’ says the Lord, ‘when people are taking an oath, they will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.’ Instead, they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.’ Then they will live in their own land.” Jeremiah 23:3-8 (NLT)

    “I will end your captivity and restore your fortunes. I will gather you out of the nations where I sent you and bring you home again to your own land.” Jeremiah 29:14 (NLT)

    “For the time is coming when I will restore the fortunes of my people of Israel and Judah. I will bring them home to this land that I gave to their ancestors, and they will possess it and live here again. I, the Lord, have spoken!” Jeremiah 30:3 (NLT)

    “I will surely bring my people back again from all the countries where I will scatter them in my fury. I will bring them back to this very city and let them live in peace and safety.” Jeremiah 32:37 (NLT)

    “Therefore, give the exiles this message from the Sovereign Lord: Although I have scattered you in the countries of the world, I will be a sanctuary to you during your time in exile. I, the Sovereign Lord, will gather you back from the nations where you were scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel once again.” Ezekiel 11:16-17 (NLT)

    “When I bring you home from exile, you will be as pleasing to me as an offering of perfumed incense. And I will display my holiness in you as all the nations watch. Then when I have brought you home to the land I promised your ancestors, you will know that I am the Lord.” Ezekiel 20:41-42 (NLT)

    “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: The people of Israel will again live in their own land, the land I gave my servant Jacob. For I will gather them from the distant lands where I have scattered them. I will reveal to the nations of the world my holiness among my people. They will live safely in Israel and build their homes and plant their vineyards. And when I punish the neighboring nations that treated them with contempt, they will know that I am the Lord their God.” Ezekiel 28:25-26 (NLT)

    “I will be like a shepherd looking for his scattered flock. I will find my sheep and rescue them from all the places to which they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day. I will bring them back home to their own land of Israel from among the peoples and nations. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel and by the rivers in all the places where people live. Yes, I will give them good pastureland on the high hills of Israel. There they will lie down in pleasant places and feed in lush mountain pastures.” Ezekiel 34:12-14 (NLT)

    “And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.” Ezekiel 37:21-22 (NLT)

    “So now the Sovereign Lord says: I will end the captivity of my people; I will have mercy on Israel, for I am jealous for my holy reputation! They will accept responsibility for their past shame and treachery against me after they come home to live in peace and safety in their own land. And then no one will bother them or make them afraid. When I bring them home from the lands of their enemies, my holiness will be displayed to the nations. Then my people will know that I am the Lord their God – responsible for sending them away to exile and responsible for bringing them home. I will leave none of my people behind. And I will never again turn my back on them, for I will pour out my Spirit upon them, says the Sovereign Lord.” Ezekiel 39:25-29 (NLT)

    “In that day I will restore the fallen kingdom of David. It is now like a house in ruins, but I will rebuild its walls and restore its former glory. And Israel will possess what is left of Edom and all the nations I have called to be mine. I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will do these things.

    ‘The time will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when the grain and grapes will grow faster than they can be harvested. Then the terraced vineyards on the hills of Israel will drip with sweet wine! I will bring my exiled people of Israel back from distant lands, and they will rebuild their ruined cities and live in them again. They will plant vineyards and gardens; they will eat their crops and drink their wine. I will firmly plant them there in the land I have given them,’ says the Lord your God. ‘Then they will never be uprooted again.’” Amos 9:11-15 (NLT)

    Ezekiel 36

    Ezekiel 37
89. Don says:

    February 18, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Ann,

    Although I agree that Israel will be brought back, there just is no way that most of the scriptures you quoted could have been fulfilled between 1880 and 1948 as you say.

    If anyone reads almost all of these scriptures in context of the full passage it is obviously talking about the restoration of Israel after the 70th week is fulfilled – the great tribulation – Jacob’s trouble – the Day of the Lord.

    Israel has not arrived there yet.
90. Ann says:

    February 18, 2012 at 11:52 am

    Don,

    Sorry, that I was not clear enough; I meant to write that there are some of the Scriptures not yet fulfilled. The post was more directed to Shaikh who seems rather confused as to whether or not God’s promise was still binding. Doesn’t some of the bounderies include much more land than present day Israel,from what I can translate to the modern day countries: all the land west of the Euphrates which is Iraq, parts of Jordan and the Sinai, etc….?
91. Don says:

    February 18, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    Ann,

    Yes, that is correct. Israel will possess all the land that God promised to them. It will become a very large country.
92. Shaikh says:

    February 18, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    I just want Ann to know I do believe God’s Promise is STILL BINDING, that wasn’t my question. My question was whether 1948 Creation of Israel was of a restoration of Israel in any way or not.

    Also no where do the Scriptures point out that God will UNCONDITIONALLY bring them back to their land, without any repentance.

    However, the verses Jeremiah 23:3-8 talks about Israel’s Restoration after the “righteous branch of David’s Throne” comes, meaning after the Second Coming and in the days of the Lord. The verses that probably supports your argument the most I would say is Ezekiel 39:25-29.

    Jeremiah 30:3 talks about God giving Israel back to the Jews, which consists of the land from the Nile to the Euphrates, which hasn’t happened yet. I would say if 1948 was a restoration it was a partial restoration.
93. Don says:

    February 18, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Shaikh,

    You might not be so dogmatic about taking that position. The scriptures might not specially say that God will unconditionally bring them back but it certainly is implied in many passages. There is a specific length of time that Israel will be punished and that is foretold at least by Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. Israel did not have to repent to be brought back from the 70 year Babylon captivity and there is no indication whatsoever that Israel repents anytime before they first accept the wicked shepherd and then flee the Antichrist. So how did they get back in the land if God did not allow them to come back to their land? Even the New Covenant was given to Judah and Israel without conditions. God is merciful and He gives grace to those whom he chose to give grace. Christians should know that the grace we received was not based on something that we did. Neither is any grace given to Israel.
94. Shaikh says:

    February 18, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Well as I will say, I am open to correction from any brother or sister in Christ.

    I do believe that God did allow the Jews to come back, while at the same time I believe that the whole and actual restoration of Israel will happen after Christ’s Second Coming. The Scripture I use is Jeremiah 23:3-8, since the restoration from exile is discussed happening “in his days”, meaning in the days of the righteous branch of David.

    So what I understand so far get is that there is a partial return to the land, but not a complete end of exile, which will happen only after Christ comes. Since “the land” has not been given back, only a part of it:

    “For the time is coming when I will restore the fortunes of my people of Israel and Judah. I will bring them home to this land that I gave to their ancestors, and they will possess it and live here again. I, the Lord, have spoken!” Jeremiah 30:3 (NLT)

    God says the Jews will possess their land again. Now Scripture tells use what this land is, “from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18).

    Do I believe God has allowed the Jews to come back?

    Yes I do, but I believe its because of going through judgement eventually aka Jacob’s Trouble. God’s exile will truly come to an end when there is not a single Jew left behind and ALL of them come back from their exile NOT just a portion of them. I can’t remember the verses right off the top of my head right now, but will post them later today possibly.

    Do I believe that 1948 Creation of the State of Israel is God’s Second Restoration mentioned in Scripture?

    No, since the Second Restoration to “the land” will have to include returning land of their forefathers back to them, not just a small percentage of it.
95. Don says:

    February 18, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Shaikh,

    I do not disagree with your position that the full return of Israel is after the tribulation of those days. There really is no reason to find scripture to further advance that position. We are sort of getting into a endless discussion here that has already been covered in this post.
96. Shaikh says:

    February 18, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Did Israel ever possess the land from the Nile to the Euphrates?
97. Don says:

    February 18, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Shaikh,

    I don’t see in scripture where Israel expands as far as the Nile.
    I think what you are asking is did Israel ever possess all the land that was promised to them? One answer is they did not possess it all but some think all of it was under Israeli control in the time of Solomon.
98. ~David says:

    February 18, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Don,

    Can you clarify this for us please ?

    God says the Jews will possess their land again. Now Scripture tells use what this land is, “from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18).

    I thought also that the above passage was referring to “The Nile” to the Euphrates…that Israel would inherit after the last days.
99. Don says:

    February 18, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    -David

    It is probably the Brook of Egypt also know as the Wadi el Arish. This was part of the Southern boundary of the promised land so it would go generally East West. The Nile runs North South so it could hardly be a Southern boundary. Also Egypt clearly exists as a separate nation in the millennium if Israel had the Nile there would be little point for Egypt to exist.

    Here is a good reference that explains the issues.

    http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-kadesh-barnea-southern-border-judah-territory-river-of-egypt-wadi-el-arish-tharu-rhinocolu.htm
100. Shaikh says:

     February 18, 2012 at 10:57 pm

     Don,

     Can you post the verses where God ended the Babylonian exile and brought Israel back to her land despite no repentance? Thanks!
101. Don says:

     February 18, 2012 at 11:25 pm

     Shaikh,

     You know you’re really getting to tick me off. I already explained it to you on the Feb 18 1:06 PM comment. I cannot post what is determined through general understanding. The fact that God did not require Israel to do anything but return to the land should be clear enough. You seem to think that the word of God needs to have written answers to your own false presumptions.
102. Shaikh says:

     February 19, 2012 at 12:26 pm

     Don,

     You need to relax, I’m not challenging you or trying to argue. I was just asking for specific Bible verses for me to look at for my own reading into the subject, regarding the return from the Babylonian Exile.

     I AM NOT SAYING that you are wrong or anything, neither am I trying to argue God can’t show unconditional grace, especially in regards to the Jews and their land. You and I agree on almost everything. I was just asking for the Bible Verses, just for the sake of reading them on my own time.
103. Don says:

     February 19, 2012 at 1:49 pm

     Shaikh,

     If you are referring to the specific times of punishment allotted for Israel where they would be ruled over by the Gentiles. They can be found in Ezekiel chapter 4 3-6. and Daniel 9:24. I explained the Ezekiel timing to you yesterday. You are not going to get the timing on a surface reading and that is why I explained it. Again, you are not going to understand the 70 weeks timing on a surface reading either, this link will explain it to you.

     http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/the-70-weeks-of-daniel/

     The point is that the returns of Israel seem to be more dependent on God’s sovereign timing than on any repentance on Israel’s part. (I am not suggesting that Israel will not repent in the final week either.) God will fully deal with Israel again after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. There remains seven years of God dealing with Israel before Israel’s restoration. No, I do not believe what we are now seeing fulfills any of that 70th week or the restoration promised. However, a partial return first had to happen or the end time prophecies about Israel could not be fulfilled as written.
104. Brian from Oz says:

     February 19, 2012 at 9:29 pm

     “The point is that the returns of Israel seem to be more dependent on God’s sovereign timing than on any repentance on Israel’s part”

     Ezekiel 36:20-38 shows your comment to be spot on Don. He does nothing for them but as a defence of his holy name. What a place of rest for those who trust in God. He will be true to his word, and he has “magnified his word above all his name” Psalm 138:2.
105. Shaikh says:

     March 26, 2012 at 5:38 pm

     Based on my research so far, I do believe that the restoration mentioned in Ezekiel 34-39 will take place some where in the future. Thanks for posting this blog, it really got me doing my homework. haha
106. Barry says:

     September 1, 2012 at 9:50 pm

     I fully agree that a literal resurrection of many could possibly be a correct interpretation of Ezekiel 37. When I consider the army described in Joel 2, I see an army which is supernatural where the army members can fall upon a sword and not be wounded. I contend that if a literal resurrection to an immortal state is being described in Ezekiel 37, then the army described in Joel 2 could possibly be comprised of these immortal resurrected beings (rather than heavenly beings like angels). When I think of even a small army of immortal beings, then the words “an exceeding great army” would seem very appropriate. I have found few who seem to consider an army of immortal resurrected beings. You post was refreshing. I have also considered it possible that a rapture could produce such an army also. I wonder if those raptured/resurrected really spend all 7 years of the trib in heaven as is so popular to think.

     I also appreciated your thoughts about the resurrection(s) coming in phases. I have heard some excellent teaching about “end time harvests” which I believe are resurrections. Just as certain crops ripen and are harvest in different seasons, so I think there are multiple resurrections occurring during the trib. An interesting note – Wheat was threshed using a tool called a tribulum.
107. Jah1z says:

     September 13, 2012 at 7:36 pm

     Don,

     Your expertise on the scriptures is far superior than my own, and I can’t help but feel tempted to drop a loaded and sensitive subject on you; to get your thought/views on the House of Israel and the House of Judah and just who and where they are, as we speak.

     The general consensus seem to be that the modern-day Jews of Israel are the physical descendants of the 12 Tribes of Israel. If I may challenge you, and counter this notion of “Caucasian Jews” being descendants of the ancient Sons of Israel, I’d appreciate it.

     In Deut. 28:13-68, talks about the curses of the Hebrew Israelites that is to happen in the land of their Oppressors. A growing awakening among Americans are warming up to, what is a likely fact that the Negros are no other than the Tribe of Judah and their brothers are the Natives and Latinos of Americas and the Caribbean Islands.

     If the modern-day Caucasian Jews of Israel today are the physical descendants of Ancient Hebrews, how come none of them fits the curses of Deut. 28??
108. Don says:

     September 13, 2012 at 8:51 pm

     Jah1Z

     Many of the Jews of Israel are descendents of the 12 tribes of Israel. On the other hand, obviously not all descendents of Israel are now in Israel.

     I do not know what makes you think that the Jews in Israel today are only Caucasian? There are Jews from every race including the black race and Spanish people. To be a descendent of Israel there has to be some lineage back to Israel, but another way of identifying sons of Israel is the customs they retained and who and how they worship. Even so, many through forced conversions have lost their Israeli identify, but the Jews that held on to their identity are obviously the first ones that should be brought back to Israel to make it truly a nation descended from Israel and not just another Gentile nation with an Israel title.

     The rest will be sorted out during the great tribulation. The curses of Deut 28 has been going on for some time. You need to learn the history of the Jews. There have always been brief times of mercy but generally the things mentioned in Deut 28 has been ongoing for 2500 years. That is why there are so few Jews in the world. Did you want to be part of all the Jewish holocausts since the disperia? Do you want to be one of the third that got killed under Hitler or the two-thirds of Israel that are cut off (killed) in the still coming time of Jacob’s trouble? I though not.

     All Israelites are descendent from Hebrews. There simply is no reason to believe that most of the Negroes and Latinos of the Americas are descendents of Israel unless they can prove it through their blood lines. Why would you or anyone even want the curse that you claim that should now be underway on them.

     If you want a relationship with the King of Israel believe in Jesus. If you do, you will attain a better position than the now unbelieving physical descendents of Israel in the Kingdom age that is to come.

     Here is how you can be part of His blood bought bride.

     http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/How%20one%20is%20saved.htm

     On your second comment I am not going to post it. You need to read “The Footprints of the Messiah” Israel is first brought back in unbelief and then after the tribulation of those days all Israel will be saved and brought back to Israel.