Seventh millennium in two decades, these are the prophetic years

On August 11, 2013 · 85 Comments

What if you knew that at most you had about a decade left on earth to accomplish whatever you will do in your mortal Christian life. Would you do anything different? I have good reason to believe that we are living in the prophetic years and ten or fifteen years is about all the time that those in Christ have left to work. Even if the Rapture were delayed for more than another decade, at the rate that world societies are decaying and growing openly hostile toward true Christians, we will not be allowed to work much longer to get out the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ anywhere.

Inclusive religions like Polytheism, Pantheism, and Universalism do not threaten the global elite that believe mostly in Humanism but the exclusive claims of the Christian message uniquely does threaten the man-made socialist utopia that they are working to build. The Christian claim that people need to turn from their sinful lifestyles, that most of these people actually love, and turn to trust in God for His Savior and for His salvation is something that infuriates the leaders of this world and a message that they will not tolerate.

They do not believe that they need to be saved from the coming wrath of God because they do not believe in any such thing, and such messages will be outlawed wherever they gain control. They cannot tolerate the thought that the sinful world utopia that they are working to create falls short of anything that any God would require.

They set themselves up as the Lords of this earth and oppose any claim that anything called God would intervene in the affairs of the evolution process on earth. They certainly do not want to hear that a time is set for Jesus to Return, to establish a Jewish theocracy and to destroy those that oppose His coming to rule the earth. Christian Bible prophecy is something to be mocked by the leaders of the Satanic world.

We Christians do not know when Jesus is coming for His Church, it could be today, and every today that passes makes it just another day closer, but it almost certainly will happen within fifteen years. Why do I say that? Because the signs of the end of the age that the prophets and the Church founders told us about are already evident. The increasing insanity that fallen men are bringing upon planet earth is prophetic and we that study Bible prophecy know where it leads.

Man is now playing at creation without the understanding required. Man has even started altering his human genetics and DNA to try to become like God. The things that man is now dabbling in most certainly would destroy all life on earth if Jesus did not return in the next couple of decades.

We also know the Rapture of the Church is some years before God pours out His wrath on this fallen evil world that rejects the sacrifice of His Son for redemption and His coming to save those who trust in Him. So, when you weigh the evidence and add it all up, believers should come to the conclusion that at most there is 10 to 15 years left for the Church to carry out its commission.

When considering the biblical week, it is only logical that the end of 6th millennium would take place 2000 years from the death of the Messiah of Israel. It appears that Jesus died at the end of the fourth millennium making the remaining three days in the week the last days of the week that the New Testament witnesses say that we are now living in.

Jesus was crucified sometime between 28 AD and 37 AD. Scholars are all over the board on the actual year of His death, but almost all agree that it occurred within that span of  years.

The seventh millennium under the rule of Christ cannot be delayed if a biblical week of 7000 years has been determined for mortal man. God has a purpose for the seventh day of one thousand years under the rule of His Messiah. The seventh millennium will have a greater harvest of souls than the previous six millenniums combined because people will be living at a time when the curse is lifted, evil will be restrained, lifespans will be increased, deserts will bloom, there will be no birth control, and the whole earth will grow food like a garden. All will have knowledge of God, and the whole earth will become like the garden of Eden. I think at least a hundred billion people will be born in this 7th millennium.

I think the Bible suggests that the Church age is to establish the leadership that will rule and reign with Christ during the 7th millennium where God’s purpose for creating Adam and Eve on earth will be fulfilled. Jesus as the second Adam, and those born into the Body of Christ will establish the righteous utopia on earth that will fulfill the whole purpose of man’s Creation on earth until mankind enters his eternal state.

This purpose was delayed for 6000 years by man’s fall into sin, until God’s Kinsman Redeemer paid the blood price, took out a Bride in the 5th and 6th millennium Church age. And the Bride will return with Him at His second advent at the start of the seventh millennium Sabbath. She will rule and reign with Him for those thousand years that will then complete the biblical week determined for mortal man.

The whole plan of the ages finds fulfillment in the Sabbath rest of the Lord’s day and we are told that it will last one thousand years six times in the book of the Lord’s Revelation. Therefore, the prior 6 days add up to six thousand years from the fall of Adam. As further proof, scripture tells us twice that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day (Ps 90:4 – 2 Pt 3:8).

It is not like we are living in darkness that the Day of the Lord will come upon us like a thief (1 Th 5:4). We can see man’s rebellion against God and his desire to play God through his spiritualism and his inventions. Many even claim that man will achieve immortality by 2050 through his own scientific knowledge or spiritual evolution. Achieving long life or even immortality does not deal with man’s evil sin nature. Therefore, man will never be allowed to achieve immortality through his own efforts.

We live in the time when Israel is back in their land after two thousand years of exile and they are surrounded by enemies that want to exterminate the Jews just like the prophets have foretold. Do we think that this hatred will just go away, or will wars like the Bible describes for the end days take place in this generation? I think the answer is obvious. These are the prophetic years.

Russia is becoming a very powerful nation again and we know that Iran is becoming a threat to Israel’s existence. We were told in Ezekiel 38 and 39 that these nations would come together against Israel in the latter days. It will happen, because we are living in the prophetic years.

Violence and Jihad is rising all over the world. Almost all violence on the earth during this century is caused by those acting out what Islam teaches. How can there not be a clash of civilizations in the very near future? It will happen, because we are living in the prophetic years.

China and India are becoming superpowers making the army of 200 million that would kill a third of men on earth possible for the first time since the Bible prophecy was given. The surplus of men created for destruction in China because of the evils of one child policy, abortion, and infanticide happened in our own generation and there will be worldwide consequences to this generation living in the prophetic years. This abomination in China is still ongoing and the world no longer opposes China’s evils because all the nations have become corrupted by their own evils. The Kings of the East will bring death to a third of men on earth because the nations are evil and because these are the prophetic years.

Even those identifying with Christianity are turning to harlotry and humanism because they deny, twist, disregard, or don’t know God’s word. They follow talking heads on TV and two-legged human idols and not the Lord they claim. The Apostles of Jesus warned us this would happen with many that identify with Christianity in the last days. We have arrived to those prophetic years.

130 nations of the world already hate Christianity, most of the rest tolerate Christian religion if the sin, salvation, and return of Jesus message is removed. Jesus said the world would hate Christians as it hated Him. If the world under the control of Satan is loving certain popular “Christian” figures, you can be sure that these figures are not teaching Christ and Him crucified for our sins.

I could go on, but the signs and world trends that indicate that we are in the prophetic years would just be repeating what I wrote about elsewhere on this site. The main point is that as world populations increase and as the world unites under the concept that all religious have truth, they will increasingly turn against Christians that claim to have the only truth that man must believe to be saved. Jesus said those that reject the salvation He offers are under condemnation.

We only have about another decade to get the gospel message of God’s grace through faith in what Jesus did, before true Christianity is no longer tolerated in the world. When we get to that point, there is little reason for the Church to remain on earth, so the Rapture will be upon us, if not before. The time left for Christians to work is growing mighty short. You might want to be aware of that.


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 Don Koenig founded www.thepropheticyears.com website in 1999 after almost thirty years of independent study on the Bible and learning from many astute teachers within Christendom. Don created his website to write about Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and his Christian worldviews. Don wrote a free Revelation commentary ebook in 2004 named "The Revelation of Jesus Christ Through The Ages". The World and Church and Bible Prophecy section of this website was started in 2007.


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85 Responses to “Seventh millennium in two decades, these are the prophetic years”

  1. Good morning Don,

    Greatly enjoyed today’s article. What you write makes sense! As I have said, I am biased toward the 2019-2020 rapture timing… But as we all know, predictions are crazy… I am just wishful thinking. But we certainly must be getting close.

    The spreading disease within the “church” is doing considerable damage. Finding a healthy church is becoming very difficult. If you dare to call any of these liars out, you are immediately ignored as those with the itching ears will call you “judgmental”.

    I found your reference in this article to the growing army potential of China and India particularly interesting. While the birthrates in Europe and the U.S. are dropping, along with the abortion genocide that has killed somewhere around 55 million just in the U.S. and counting, the balance is sure shifting. Also, our military is becoming unrecognizable to what you and I experienced a couple decades ago. We have technology, and power, but morals and values have shifted. Just what we need… The most advanced military in the world with a declining moral value system.

    Thanks for the article.. It serves as both a warning, and source of encouragement.

    Rod

  2. Jeff MNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Don, great article, When I was in the military and we would have some high ranking officer coming to the base , we would scurry around getting ready for his visit. How much more for our Lord Jesus should we be ready and watching. Maranatha

  3. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    What if you knew that at most you had about a decade left on earth to accomplish whatever you will do in your mortal Christian life. Would you do anything different?

    I think the answer to this question might say a lot as to where we are in our walk with The Lord.

    If it is anything materially or humanity fulfilled, then we should question ourselves…if our answer is “No”, we must continue to fight the good fight for The Lord, then I think we are on the right track.

    —————

    Interestingly, reports indicate that while the U.S. and European birth rates are dropping…Islamic birth rates are increasing…some reports indicate a 7 to the rest of the worlds 1.

    —————-

    When will the rapture of the church be upon us and when will the prophetic scenarios come about ?

    I don’t know, however, I do not see how our nation, the U.S., will remain intact past this decade.

    If there is no EMP strike or something to wipe us out entirely, perhaps the U.S. will succumb to joining and becoming just another cog in the one world system wheel.

    We certainly seem to have an administration that is adamant about “redistributing” the wealth and power.

  4. Caitlin LaneNo Gravatar says:

    It probably won’t surprise anyone to know that if you try to talk to someone about Jesus that they either don’t want to hear it or they want to argue some silly theology they have. When you don’t jump on their bandwagon it can lead to anger and harsh words. [No doubt I ruined some of my witness getting sucked into an argument.] So I developed a strategy-for two reasons.
    I drove OTR for 14 years. Drivers would follow me around in the truck stops or leave notes and phone numbers on my truck. I got into the habit of asking God, “Is this someone you want me to talk to about you? If it is open the door and I’ll jump in.” I wasn’t going to waste my time with men who just wanted to talk trash.
    God will answer this request in amazing ways.
    I’ll share one story and try to be brief but the way God worked all the details out still amazes me.
    I was dispatched to San Diego to pick up freight from a tradeshow. There were 150 to 200 other trucks there all parked on the runway. How this driver from Mass. ended up parked two spots from me and came over to talk to me; how we ended up getting our trailers loaded at the same time and finished at the same time; how we both were delivering to the same warehouse in Orlando at the same time was God’s doing. For three days I got to talk about Jesus, salvation and prophecy. I also told him about Israel and how the Palestinians hated them and America. He didn’t believe that. Late on a Monday night we were lucky to find two parking spaces at a truck stop in Junction, Tx. The next morning was Sept. 11, 2001. Before we got back on the road the first tower had been hit. Suddenly my new friend was really interested in prophecy. Especially when he saw the Palestinians dancing in the streets and celebrating. I got to witness two more days to this driver. He was a married man so that ended our contact but I occasionally wonder if those seeds took root.
    This is just one of my testimonies to the lengths God will go to when He finds a willing vessel. Isn’t He amazing?

  5. simonNo Gravatar says:

    one of my fav. articles don.. but i just dont understand what “a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day” means? i mean its kinda self explanatory but i still dont get the real meaning.

  6. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Simon,

    It means that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years on our own calender. The premise is that the Lord has determined that this whole fall of man will play out in 7 days that are 1000 years long in our sight. Therefore, there will be 7000 thousand years from the fall of Adam until the final judgment of Satan and the establishment of the New Heaven and Earth. The Sabbath reign of Jesus on earth from Jerusalem is the 7th day of this week or the Sabbath rest where we cease from doing our own work but work as priests of God. We are told that this Sabbath reign would last for 1000 years six times in Revelation, confirming the biblical week theory.

  7. jimNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    Are we talking about 7000 360 day years? 365.25 day years? Both at different times? something else? I ask because you could calculate this all out a bit easier if we knew. You would just have to know how God is measuring 7000 years.

  8. simonNo Gravatar says:

    wow the power of god, thnx for the explanation. I think our little brains would explode if we found out how powerful god really is, because it’s simply beyond our imagination.

  9. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Jim,

    IMHO there is no way to know that because I believe the calender has changed more than once over the last 6 thousand years. for example, all very ancient calenders had 365 day years and then they all changed to 360 day years around the long day of Josiah and now they are back to 365.25 day years and that calender might have started at the time of Hezekiah when the sundial moved backward two steps. That is why there is no way anyone can figure out the years precisely. I think the best we can do is surmise that the 4th day ended at the Crucifixion and the seventh day will start at the thousand year reign of the Lord. We probably can be off many years in any dating scheme from Adam. Many people thought the 6000 years should have been up in 2004 but obviously they were not. And the Jewish calender only makes this 5773

  10. ChristinaNo Gravatar says:

    Don,
    This article was so interesting and insightful, thank you for posting. I’ve never encountered the teaching that the Lord has determined 7,000 years from the fall of Adam until the start of the eternal reign of Christ but you put it so succinctly, and clearly, that it makes perfect sense.
    I am praying more than I ever have before: for my nation (Australia), for your nation, for individuals and groups to come to salvation (I pray for truckies every time I’m on the road because my brother was a truckie), for God’s will in the lives of His people and the whole earth, so I guess that would be my answer to your question – pray more.
    Caitlin Lane, that was a great story, thanks for sharing it :)

  11. Great article Don, and Caitlin has our best response pretty well nailed down. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves in dealing with people and leave God to open avenues and opportunities for us to express the hope we have within us. Tread gently gently, for God is not willing that any should perish and they will not do so until they have had their chance.

  12. jimNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    I agree we cannot know for sure but let’s have bit of fun. Say what you just said were actually correct about when the calenders changed. If you calculate it out the year is 5988 in our current 365.25 day years. Rather

  13. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Jim,

    My point is that Jesus is the best date indicator of the end of the fourth day. Since that time we have had a 365.25 day calender. If God was using a 360 day calender the seventh day would have begun around the year 2000. I do not know how you come up with it now being 5988?

    I tend to think that God uses the year as the actual time for the earth to go around the sun. That may have changed a number of times in history but a year is a year.

    Also to support the two thousand year theory, remember that Jesus rose early on the third day. The same may be true of the Church, and we also have the prophecy written to Israel that was cut off when the leaders of Israel rejected Jesus and this was symbolized by Jesus cursing the fig tree. What I think the prophecy is saying is that the Jews will be restored after two days and will live with him on the third day during the Sabbatical Millennium.

    HO 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

  14. jimNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    It’s kinda complicated but I’ll do my best to explain.

    If the 6000th year from creation we will begin the 7th day of rest called the millennium then we really only need to know how close to the year 6000 it is. I think we can all agree that it is fast approaching.

    basically I just converted 360 day and 365 day years to our current 365.25 day years you follow? Just for arguments sake I took the days and times you mentioned on your last post. We know it’s not entirely accurate and it might mean nothing but here goes.

    So I took the first 2565 years from creation and multiplied it by 365. This ends with the long day of Joshua. From this event on I used 360 day years until the Hezekiah sundial incident. From then on I used 365.25 day years and assumed 2035 AD Jesus would return. If you add up all the days then divide by 365.25 you get 5988.

    2565 365 day years at beginning
    700 360 day years from Joshua to Hezekiah ( best guess at years between them)
    365.25 days from Hezekiah to 2035 AD (2735 years)

    I do not think this is right but I was just showing you how I did it. It is just a way to convert the changes in our solar year to our current calender. One more thing. There is a difference of about 87 years between 6000 years of all 360 day years and all 365.25 day years. I suppose it means that the end of the age would have to occur somewhere in between. It looks like we already past the 6000 360 day year mark so would it be safe to assume the end of the age has to be within several decades but we already believe that anyway :)

  15. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Jim,

    I figured that is what you attempted. Like I said, I think God knows how long a year really is. So when the actual year was 365.25 days He was not still counting 360 days years. And likewise, when the years were 360 days long He was not saying a year was 365 days. The end of the fourth day was likely at the death of Jesus and ever since then we have had pretty much the same calender that we have today. So the seventh day is due two thousand actual years from the date of the Crucifixion or 28 to 37 AD depending on when the actual crucifixion happened.

  16. Don
    In line with the seven thousand year ‘days’: Do you believe the Church age will take up a full two of those ‘days’ (as does the millennium), and would not those two thousand years begin on the day of the first Pentecost after Christ Jesus’ resurrection? I find this an interesting supposition!

    If a year is a year is a year and if this supposition has merit we should have a clearer idea of when, or nearly so, the rapture will occur.

    I cannot see any other dispensation in scripture fitting such an exact timetable so I don’t suppose we can claim the Church age to be exact either,

  17. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Brian,

    Jesus rose after three days. That does not mean he rose one second after sunset, if you can even determine the exact second of sunset. First of all, we do not know what year Pentecost happened and second, there is no reason in the world why the Church age has to be exactly 2000 years. When the fulness of those appointed to rule and reign with Christ comes in, the Church will be taken.

    I surmise this process will not take more than 2000 years because God then would still be building the Church in the seventh millennium. The whole theory is based on the thousand year day model where a day is as a thousand years in the week of 7000 years or the 140 jubilees that God determined for this all to play out. Revelation with the 1000 year reign and what is described during the reign of Christ in the OT supports the Sabbath rest of one thousand years concept. If you have a Sabbath of one thousand years you ought to have gone through the other six days of the week as well.

    The fall until the eternal restoration is inflexible, it either is 7000 years or the theory fails. The grafted in Church has nothing to do with that timeline other than she is taken within the last two days and before the 6000th year and the start of the millennial reign. Enoch being a model of the Church was taken alive to Heaven quite a few years before the judgment by water. The Church also will be taken some time before the coming judgment by fire.

    There really is no reason for God to show distinct anniversaries showing the division of days except for the sixth and seventh and possibility the end of the fourth day and start of the fifth but even that division is not precisely known to us.

  18. CraigNo Gravatar says:

    I suspect this is off topic, maybe, but while we’re talking about “days”… I am reading Daniel and struggling with Daniel 8:14:

    >>> And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    From what I can gather based on some searching, it’s referring to the “great tribulation” period (being the last 3.5 years), particularly considering the context of this verse.

    Can anyone explain? [BTW, the 7th "Day" adventists were way off]

  19. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Craig,

    There really is no reason to believe that they are anything but literal days. Apparently the sacrificial system will be started again by Jews only to be stopped for 2300 days before it is cleansed in the millennium. Some manuscripts say 2200 days and I believe one says 2400. Since nothing else is said, there really is nothing more that can be said that is not shear conjecture. I suppose it will mean something to those reading this prophecy during the 70th week of Daniel.

  20. Thanks for that Don.

  21. SimonNo Gravatar says:

    Hey,

    This is an interesting topic. I believe a “year” basically refer to the whole period of a full summer and winter. Whether it is an ancient or modern Hebrew calendar, or whether it is our secular calendar, it is comprised of summer and winter.

    As for the date of the crufixion, I don’t usually put a year on these things, but I have came across an interesting piece from the Talmud which actually supports the accounts written about our saviour.

    It mentions that in the 40 years before the destruction of the temple, the lot (for the Lord) did not come up in the right hand (mentioned in Leviticus) and the red band remaind red (indicating that their sins are not pardoned) and the door of the temple opened by itself at night (which Flavius Josephus also records along with other signs). This comes straight from a religion that denied the promised anointed one, and yet support the account written concerning him.

    Forty years before the destruction of the temple is 30 CE, at which time the anointed one offered himself once and for all for our sins. The huge veil of the temple were split in two as the new covenant went into effect.

    So the end of this age should be about 2030 on our calendar. Sabbath means to cease, and Paul did say rest with us when our Master shall be revealed from heaven.

  22. Caitlin LaneNo Gravatar says:

    Thank ya’ll who appreciated the story I shared.

    Don, I have a question for you. From all the research you’ve read on trying to determine the year of the crucifixion is there one you lean toward? I asked not because knowing the year will change anything but because it’s interesting.

    The research of Robert W. Faid-a nuclear scientist believer-led him to the year 33 A.D. eg Cyrus allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the temple Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed but he didn’t allow them to rebuild the walls. In 450 B.C.-in the time of Artaxerxes-Nehemiah was allowed to return and finish building the temple and the walls. From 450 B.C. to A.D. 33 is 483 years spoken of by Daniel 9:25.

    I just like to compare findings to see how people arrive at their conclusions.

  23. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Caitlin,

    I would say 33AD is my first choice with 30AD being my second choice. I used to think 32AD but that does not seem likely now.

  24. I find an interesting parallel in the Old Testament that seems to foreshadow the last days time period. It is in Exodus 19. The scene is LORD speaking to Moses and giving him instructions right before giving the Israelites the law.
    Exodus 19:10-11 “The LORD also said to Moses, ‘Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.’”
    Notice the two days of setting apart the people and on the third day the LORD would come down is similar to the church age. Once Christ died on the cross, that event initiated the last three days of the week. The first two thousand years Christ was setting apart the church and they should be ready for Him to come down at the beginning of the 3rd day/3rd millennium.
    Exodus 19:16 “So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.”
    So after being consecrated for two days, notice He comes down in the morning or at the beginning of the day. The LORD comes down in a cloud and after a loud trumpet sound. The parallel two Christ returning to the earth couldn’t be any clearer.
    And subsequent to the LORD coming down in Exodus, the law was given to the people. So when Christ comes back He will be the law giver to the world as He rules from His thrown in Jerusalem.
    Just a thought but it sure seems to fit.

  25. DentonNo Gravatar says:

    @ Craig,

    2300 days seems to be a separate, though related issue to the 7 year covenant. It seems that the 7 year covenant allows for the building of the 3rd Temple, which is then started 1 year, 1 month, 1 day afterwards (Ezra 3:8). Add 2300 days to cleanse the temple. When the starting point is the end of Passover, this sequence of end of Passover, 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, plus 2300 days ends on Rosh Hashanah – on certain years. It’s a somewhat complicated idea to express in a small paragraph – I go into way more detail with it here:
    http://prophecyandritual.blogspot.com/2013/08/when-does-3rd-temple-start.html

  26. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Denton,

    After reading your page it all looks like a huge exercise in just taking numbers and conjectures from just about anywhere in order to make them add up to 2300 to me. That is not proper biblical exegesis.

  27. CraigNo Gravatar says:

    Hi,

    Daniel 8 is a tough read. Each time I try to get through this, I might pick up something but I have yet to really feel like I understand the message(s). Currently, I’m wrapped up on the word “host” (and the concordance isn’t really helping on that word). In any case, I prefer Don’s explanation – just accept it literally. As for looking for help on the “inter-web”, it’s all over the map. People are making up all kinds of things (including, “divide by two” to try to make it fit in 3.5 years, give or take). And, yeah, this is fairly off topic – but I do ponder how the 2300 days (give or take) actually continue into the 7th millenium, if I read it correctly. Interesting. It sort of changes some of my concepts for the 7th millenium.

    Back on topic, as applied to America, we have less than 10 years. I’m still of the mindset that it’s war (international plus, if not more so than, civil) that brings about the rider on the white horse and that war brings America down vice some sort of peaceful “we are an extension of the Roman empire, part dux”. Everything will come down to neighbors / neighborhood, and being prepared *above* ground (God isn’t telling me to hide in a hole) is going to provide a strong witness (I believed God and acted accordingly – I didn’t scoff at the prophecy). Unless a watchman were to convince me otherwise.

    Blessings.

  28. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Great post! I have been following the ideas of the Chiliasts ever since I read the Epistle of Barnabus many years ago. Turns out pretty much all (all those who wrote at least) of the earliest Christians felt that there would be 6 days of 1,000 years and then Christ would return to rule the earth for the 7th day of 1,000 years. Christians believed this all the way up until Augustine in the early 400s converted from being a Chiliast to believing the whole thing (the Book of Revelation in particular) was spiritual. The Roman Catholics are generally stuck on that to this day. Why he changed – he never said. However, Clement of Alexandria (a Plato influenced Christian like Augustine) dated the beginning of the world to 5592 BC. So that meant when Augustine lived thru 408 AD (the 6,000 year) he must have thought then that the Bible must not really be literal – since Jesus didn’t come – it must be spiritual…

    That being said if you use the Septuagint Bible (the Alexandrinus not the Vaticanus version) you get a much longer timeline than Ussher did in 1650 AD. I get 5285 BC for Adam’s creation. This actually ties to the year with Demetrius – the first ever Bible chronologist writing long before Jesus was born. That means we are in the year 7298 or so – and all the theories seem to be shot down.

    However, I still believe the early Christians were on to something (too much to go into here) and the 6,000 years since SOMETHING is coming up. No way to anchor the beginning of the other end of this 6,000 year string though.

    I used to like 33 AD for the Passion but if Christ was in the tomb 3 FULL DAYS AND NIGHTS then he died in 30 AD. (To check this dates – take a look at Calendrica – a free online applet which calculates any date very accurately.) Two days of God’s 1,000 years from 30 would be 2030 AD. I see us as going before then too – so I echo – what will you be doing with your last decade?

    Maranatha!

  29. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I understand that prior to Augustine the Alexandrian school had allegorized scripture and influenced much of the Church. Augustine did much to rectify that but he still retained their allegorization of Eschatology.

    The Septuagint and Josephus and other records give an earlier dating to creation but also give an earlier dating of the flood which also seems to be more compatible with the known archeological record of ancient civilizations. Maybe God actually started the week anew when He told Noah that He was wiping out the corrupted earth and would be starting over again with those on the Ark, and announced to Noah that His Spirit would only strive with Humans for 120 divisions of time (Jubilees? x 120 = 6000 years). Of course if you subscribe to that conjecture you also have to believe the theory that there are gaps in the biblical lineage.

  30. FountNo Gravatar says:

    When I go birth age to birth by each generation, my copy of the Septuagint gives me a creation date for Adam of 5285 BC. This counting also puts the date of Noah’s flood at 3023 BC (Josephus agrees the flood occurred 2,262 years after Adam’s creation – so Josephus must have been using the Alexandrinus LXX like I am; other ancient accounts based on the Vaticanus LXX have 2,242 years). This approximately 3000 BC flood really does fit much better with the known archeological records & with much scientific evidence that something very dramatic happened to the world’s weather at that time.

    The timeline continues – father to son being born – until the 24th generation – Joseph being born to Jacob in 1699 BC. This model puts the Exodus from Egypt at 1446 BC. There are NO gaps in the Biblical lineage. God knew when to stop showing us these birth dates because we can calculate time from then on using other methods.

    The flood 3023 BC to today is 5,036 years. Again can’t pin down the 6,000 years to anything specific in the Bible. There is a very interesting “tie in” with 6,000 years related to what you have said elsewhere about the great deception coming – but that is not related to this discussion.

  31. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    If the flood actually happened around 3000 BC then the (120 times) told to Noah (or 120 jubilees OR 6000 years) left for the Spirit to strive with man might extend through the millennial reign. In any case, we cannot get precise dating because of the calender changes and the best indicator is that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and the sacrifice for sin by Jesus fulfilled one of those days also putting us in the last days. This would still make 2030-2035 the likely start of the last millennium.

    I do not see how you say there has been about 7300 years since creation but there are not any lineage gaps in the Bible using this older earth date? When I checked out Bishop Ushers dating that counted from Adam to the birth of Christ. He had the year 4000 and the Lord’s birth in 4 BC and that was determined by counting the given genealogies and times mentioned in the Bible. There appears to be a 60 year error in his dating but there is nothing that would make it off by over a thousand years unless there were gaps in the lineages that he could not possibly count.

    The date of creation by Josephus and the Septuagint both indicate an older earth but they have no agreement on the date of creation if I remember correctly. I think they were centuries if not millennium apart on the date of creation.

  32. FountNo Gravatar says:

    No lineage gaps. The LXX has all the generations of the Masoretic Text (MT) and it adds another Cainan (which agrees with the Luke genealogy of Jesus).

    The LXX generally adds 100 years to the birth of the listed son (in other words Arphaxad had Cainan at 135, not 35): it did so for Adam, Seth, Enosh, Cainan, Mahalalel, Enoch, Arphaxad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu and Serug. This is 1,200 years more than the MT (Ussher). There are also differences of 6 years for Lamech, 130 for Cainan (an extra generation in the LXX) and 50 for Nahor. These 15 differences add 1,386 more years than Ussher in the early part of Genesis – so 4004 + 1386 = 5390 BC.

    However, I have 5285 BC so Ussher made other changes too – he subtracts or compresses out 105 years in total. I can see that he has the Jewish Exodus in 1491 – whereas I have it in 1445. Not sure how we differ 46 years there… He also collapses that difference to 584 BC for the fall of Jerusalem – while I get 586 BC… I also have Jesus as being born in 5 BC verses his 4 BC. Guess I need to research more details of Ussher and see how he differs after the early Genesis period.

    There are a variety of dates set by all of the older Christians for the creation of Adam. The range is from 5592 BC by Clement of Alexandria down to Josephus (in Antiquities Preface Section 3) who arrived at 4930 BC (he & I agree on the lenghth of time from Adam thru the flood so much be something after that that changes us by 355 years). The mean of 13 key dates I have discovered is 5371 BC and to this day the Orthodox Christians still use 5509 BC. It wasn’t until Bede in 703 AD that the Christians first shifted to a MT based timeline – cutting out well over 1,000 years (and Bede was accused of heresy by his Bishop).

    Maranatha!

  33. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    Thanks for that information. So the big difference is that the Septuagint (LXX) adds about 100 years to each of the genealogies. I do not know how that can be rationalized with any Hebrew text and not only the Masoretic Text. So it seems to me that either the Hebrew text is wrong or the LXX translation is wrong, but we know the original autographs are not wrong and they are very close to the Masoretic Text, which is not a translation like is the LXX. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that Josephus used the LXX so that would account for the similar dating.

    Then we should keep in mind that modern Jews only think that there have been 5773 years since creation and also keep in mind that the calenders have changed a number of times, so knowing all this is there any wonder why even knowledgeable people comes up with different dates?

  34. FountNo Gravatar says:

    The Septuagint (LXX) and the Masoretic (MT) are really very similar. They are probably 97% identical. The Vorlage – the original Hebrew text was not finalized nor put together until about 400 BC (although written between 1446 and 400 BC). The LXX came from a translation of that “lost” Vorlage (the original autographs)starting in 250 BC thru about 130 BC. It makes sense that the LXX is thus the first translation (into Greek) of the original autographs. This is supported by the amount of times the LXX type text is quoted in the NT – including by Jesus – as being much greater than the number of times the MT type text is quoted in the NT.

    It is quite possible that the Jews held a counsel in Jamnia around 100 AD and apparently “de-Christianized” much of their Tanakh (Old Testament to us) so the Christians couldn’t use it to support Jesus as the proper Messiah to the Jews. While that Jamnia theory is not proven it is quite clear that the Jews of that time at least rejected the LXX as their OT. It is also clear that the LXX has many more clear references to the Messiah than the MT…

    Knowledgeable people do come up with different dates – I moved to the LXX because it is more supported by the NT and it happens to fit world history a whole lot better. Ussher’s flood date is much too late to have occurred with all those civilizations all around the world. The LXX flood date actually fits in quite well with all the civilizations around the world.

    Back to the topic – we are not even close to the year 6,000 and have no anchor starting the 6,000 year countdown in the Bible. So, we must look to other factors – such as the last days (2,000 years) spoken of by Jesus and others in the Bible. With that evidence in hand, we are evidently near or in the last decade of this age…

    Maranatha!

  35. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    Scholars debate whether Jesus used the LXX or not. Since Jesus was the author of the Hebrew scriptures if His intent was more like it was understood in the translation then obviously that would be what He would express in His sayings.

    The Masoretic Hebrew text has been compared to the dead sea scrolls of about 200 BC and there are no major differences between them. Most of the differences are minor spellings and such. In other words, the Hebrew text has not been corrupted over the years and the Masoretic Text is reliable. If the LXX translation is in 97 percent agreement with the MT it really argues against 100 years being added to all the genealogies as the LXX did.

    We might not be close to the year 6,000 when counting from Adam but not necessarily from the time that God announced 120 time periods (jubilees) that His Spirit would strive with men.

  36. jimNo Gravatar says:

    I think the bottom line is that the signs of time are all around us and true christians all over the world sense that the time is near. There is no way we have over a thousand years left until the end of the age.

  37. simonNo Gravatar says:

    But doesnt it say that iraq would be a commercial and financial center in the end.. if thats the case then things are gonna have to get heated up really soon. The newly built data center in utah could even bring the 666 system to life. I also think the chaos in egypt right now is really prophetic i mean it looks like one of those Isaiah prophecies coming to pass.

  38. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Simon,

    I think the Iraq prosperity takes place during and after the next world war. I also do not think the Utah center has anything to do with 666. The 666 system is a worldwide buy sell system that links up everyone from the poorest to the richest. It is more like a strictly controlled worldwide second or third generation Internet financial system and it would require worldwide communications. Those types of birds are not up yet, and they are probably at least two generations advanced from the more limited 4G systems of today.

  39. FountNo Gravatar says:

    I agree scholars debate whether Jesus used the LXX or not. I just look to Matthew – the gospel written primarily to the Jews so that they would believe. Matthew shows Jesus saying a lot of Old Testament quotes – not surprising since that was the Jewish “Bible”. The quotes in Jesus’ mouth are 90% LXX and 10% MT. That is one nail in the scholarly discussion from my point of view.

    The other and final nail is that Ussher dates the flood that destroyed the world at 2348 BC. This is IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile with archaeological and historic records from around the world. The timeline of the LXX pushes the flood back to around 3000 BC – which is in perfect alignment with that the rest of the world evidences.

    We can’t use the 6,000 year timeline under either the MT or the LXX so we must look elsewhere to construct a timeframe around what we both agree upon is the rapidly drawing near end of the age. It has been an interesting discussion though…

    Maranatha!

  40. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I agree with your conclusions about the flood being before 3000 BC for the reasons that you stated but find it confusing that some creationists still insist on using that 2348 BC date. I really know why they do, because that is what the MT seems to suggest on the surface. I wish someone could solve the mystery of why the MT and other Hebrew texts (as far as I know) differ from the LXX and the known archaeological record instead of just brushing off this valid criticism. Some scholars do say that they think the genealogy in the Hebrew text is not complete, in other words, some of the sons may have really been grandsons or great grandsons. I guess interpretation of the Hebrew allows for that interpretation being a possibility.

    Has anything been found in the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls that shed any light on the differences between the MT and the LXX? Anyway, thanks for sharing your research on all this. Most Christians are not aware of dating problem.

  41. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Don

    You are welcome – but I do have to add that you freely share your research with us all – so thank you!

    I have spent a huge amount of time on this “dating problem” because I really do have a problem with the valid criticism of an “impossibly late flood date”. When I do get around to publishing a book about this it will be called “The Definitive Bible Timeline”. :)

    Genesis chapter 5 has all the relevant data thru Noah: “These are the family records of the descendants of Adam…Noah was 500 years old, and he fathered Shem, Ham, and Japheth.” Unfortunately the only published Dead Sea Scroll containing ANY of Genesis chapter 5 is the 4QGen fragment. All that fragment says is: “Kenan”. Not all that helpful…

    In my debates with other Bible chronologists (usually academics) they always seem to rely on the flimsy reed of the Bible is missing data – there are other generations. This could be true but I don’t believe so. The strongest case supporting my side is Genesis 5:5 – “Adam was 130 years old when he fathered a son in his likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.” Now we know from Genesis 4 that Adam also had Cain and Abel as male children – suggesting that they were born before Seth. We also have the reality that “he fathered other sons and daughters” (thankfully or else there would be no human race). Now because of Luke chapter 3 where Luke names all the men of Genesis 5 as being in Jesus’ lineage – I see the father to son dating in Genesis as really being the father to the “most important son in the lineage”. I don’t think God would have “forgotten” any father and son combination but it is a mute point for the timeline. When Adam had Seth at 130 he had already had children before (and probably had children afterwards) – but for the timeline you add 130 years from the creation of Adam to the birth of Seth regardless. If you think about it, does it make sense that Noah had his first child at age 500? Nope – all the Godly men were more fruitful much earlier in life and all had more than just 3 children. More like Noah had rebellious children that died in the flood. But that matters not from the timeline – it was 500 years from the birth of Noah to the birth of the 3 sons that were faithful. Glad to be of service…

    Maranatha!

  42. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I know I can be dense, but you really lost me there. What does Seth being born when Adam was 130 have to do with Noah having 3 faithful sons at 500 years of age?

    The genealogy timeline before the flood would not effect the timing after the flood. If you make the flood before 3000 BC how is that long timeline rationalized from the biblical timings given from the Sons of Noah until Christ, when the MT only allows for 2348 years from the flood to Christ?

    After reading it again, I guess you were just given your rational for there being no missing data.

  43. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Sorry for the confusion. I was just pointing out that we know Adam’s first son was NOT Seth and given the advanced age of Noah’s sons being born – they probably weren’t his first children either. The point being that it doesn’t matter how many children the father had at what age the Bible counts a specific year for a specific descendent being born – Adam to Seth is 130 years; Noah to his three sons mentioned in the Bible is 500 years.

    The MT does not allow for 2,348 years from the flood to Christ. Ussher got there by taking 4004 BC as his starting point given that he adjusted for Christ being born in 4 BC – he wanted 4,000 years from creation to Jesus to be the “correct” answer. Since the MT does have a specific count of 1,656 years from Adam to Noah – he subtracted that from the 4,004 total to get 2348 BC. In contrast, following the LXX my Noah’s flood date is 3023 BC.

    Noah was only the 10th generation that we have specific birth of a son info on. The Bible continues running for 14 MORE generations – until the birth of Joseph to Jacob. This specifically dated section alone puts us to 1699 BC – 1,324 more specific years. We then start relying upon Bible for longer periods of time – such as 430 years in captivity in Egypt AND CANAAN (only found in the LXX – works out to 215 in Canaan & 215 in Egypt)- this runs from 1876 BC to 1446 BC; 480 years from the Exodus to the building of Solomon’s Temple – this runs from 1446 BC to 966 BC. The dating of Solomon’s Temple (in 966 BC) to Jesus (incarnate in 5 BC)… Now you certainly have great scriptural support for 3,018 years from Noah’s flood to Jesus’ incarnation.

    Maranatha!

  44. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount. I beg to differ. I believe Bishop Ussher did the exact opposite of what you claim. I once did the genealogies myself from Adam to Christ using the MT and came up with the same date of the birth of Christ as did Ussher and I was not counting backward from Christ. I was counting forward from Adam until Christ. I did come to realize that Ussher had a 60 year error when checking scripture with scripture. However, sixty years does not equate to centuries.

    It seems to me that you are putting more reliance on a Hebrew to Greek translation that on the Hebrew text itself. I do not think we can do that and then still call the Bible that we have the inerrant or the infallible word of God. Nor do I think we can call a translation of Hebrew to Greek the more infallible word of God. The dead sea scrolls have consistently verified that the Hebrew text that we now have is the same Hebrew text that ancient Israel had.

  45. DanielNo Gravatar says:

    Nobody has mentioned this yet:

    Genesis 1:28 KJV
    [28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    &

    Genesis 9:1 KJV
    [1] And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

    …told to two different men, draw what conclusions you may…

  46. jen gNo Gravatar says:

    Daniel can you give me an idea of what you are hinting at please?

  47. Jeff MNo Gravatar says:

    @Don and Fount, I appreciate your discussion back and forth on the different calander dates, the more wisdom we gain the less likely to be fooled. I saw a recent study a few years back by a website called TorahCalender.com based on scientific calculations. (over my head). They have the year 6000 to be at the year 2015. You guys have more of a handle on these dates than I do. I don’t agree with there eschatology. If you’ve seen this site, I’m interested in your views. Thanks

  48. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Jen,

    I could be wrong but I think Daniel is hinting at that God started over with Noah.

  49. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Jeff,

    I have not seen it, but I can tell you this. There probably is someone that thinks that they have come up with a date for the year 6000 for every year in at least the next two decades.

  50. Jeff MNo Gravatar says:

    Thanks Don,
    I was hoping sooner or later a definitive answer could be found. Great job on the blog!

  51. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Don

    Don

    How did you run the genealogies from Adam to Christ using the MT and get a year count? After the first 23 names in Luke (which we can date) we then see Judah – whom we cannot date (we can only date Joseph from the Bible). Neither can we date any of the people after Judah – so how did you do what you did? (The Matthew lineage starts with Abraham not Adam and also contains names we cannot date.)

    From the “always accurate source of Wikipedia” (but in this case they really are right): The chronologies of Ussher and other biblical scholars corresponded so closely because they used much the same methodology to calculate key events recorded in the Bible. Their task was complicated by the fact that the Bible was compiled from different sources over several centuries with differing versions and lengthy chronological gaps, making it impossible to do a simple totaling of Biblical ages and dates. In his article on Ussher’s calendar, James Barr has identified three distinct periods that Ussher and others had to tackle:[3]

    1.Early times (Creation to Solomon). Ostensibly the easiest period, as the Bible provides an unbroken male lineage from Adam through to Solomon complete with the ages of the individuals involved. However, not all of the versions of the Bible provide the same ages — the Septuagint gives much longer ages, adding about 1500 years to the date of Creation. Ussher resolved this problem by relying on the Hebrew Bible instead.

    2.Early Age of Kings (Solomon to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the Babylonian captivity). The lineage breaks down at this point, with only the length of the kings’ reigns being provided and a number of overlaps and ambiguities complicating the picture. Ussher had to cross-reference the Biblical records with known dates of other people and rulers to create an overall timeline.

    3.Late Age of Kings (Ezra and Nehemiah to the birth of Jesus). No information at all is provided in the Bible. Ussher and his counterparts therefore had to try to link a known event from this period with a dateable event in another culture, such as the Chaldeans, Persians or Romans. For instance, the death of the Chaldean King Nebuchadnezzar II (who conquered Jerusalem in 586 BC) could be correlated with the 37th year of the exile of Jehoiachin (2 Kings 25:27).

    Using these methods, Ussher was able to establish an unadjusted Creation date of about 4000 BC. He moved it back to 4004 BC to take account of an error perpetrated by Dionysius Exiguus, the founder of the Anno Domini numbering system. Ussher chose 4 BC as Christ’s birth year[4] because Josephus indicated that the death of Herod the Great occurred in 4 BC.[5] Jesus could not have been born after that date. (end of Wikipedia quote)

    I have already pointed out that the Dead Sea Scrolls are completely silent (other than 1 name) about the genealogy chapter in Genesis. I have no problem with the inerrancy of the LXX when it puts the flood into a date range in which it actually could have occurred. I have a much bigger problem with the inerrancy of the MT when it puts the flood into a period into which it COULD NOT have occurred.

    All that said we have probably reached the natural end of this discussion – with the bottom line being that we agree our world is no where near the ending of a 6,000 year period that can be tied back to some datable Biblical event.

    Maranatha!

  52. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Jeff

    As to the TorahCalendar.com – it is based on nothing tied to reality. They say the world was started in 3986 A.M. so the world will be ending next year in 2014 AD. Now since the actual Jews start their calendar with 3760 AM – how did these guys get 3986 AM? Simple: “In terms of the 7000 Year Plan of Elohim, the theoretical epoch (reference date) for the creation of the spiritual universe on the proleptic (retro-calculated) Creation Calendar is sunset in Jerusalem beginning Yom Re-vi-i (the fourth day of the week) on Day 1 of Month 1 which is the first day in Spiritual Year 1. This moment is equivalent to 15:41 [±30 minutes] Universal Time on Tuesday, April 11, 3986 B.C.E. on the proleptic Julian Calendar. It was at this moment, in the midst of Jubilee Year 0, that the heavens and earth were created according to Genesis 1:1.” When I translate all that to English I say “they made it up”…

    Believe it or not there is a second problem with their dating. There are too many things yet to be accomplished per the Bible for the end of the age to start in 2014.

    Maranatha!

  53. Don,

    I’m not sure what the point is in arguing about dates prior to Christ. For the seven thousand year theory to work, Christ died at the end of the fourth day because that initiated “the last days” (of the week). The last day of the week, the millennial Sabbath, has to be initiated within the next 20 – 25 years for the theory to make sense.

  54. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I do not remember off the top of my head. I did this dating 15 years ago. I will look to see if I have some notes around.

  55. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Michael

    You can certain just stipulate that Jesus died at the end of the fourth day. As I showed above – it certainly seems to me that Archbishop Ussher stipulated that Jesus was born at the beginning of the fourth day (a day being a thousand years). The guys at TorahCalendar.com have just recently stipulated that next year is the end of the sixth day. See where this is going? Doesn’t matter what WE say about the beginning or the end of the fourth day or the end of the sixth day UNLESS the other end of that timeline is anchored to some specific provable date in the Bible. It just doesn’t seem like that other end in the Bible can be anchored – so thus it seems ALL sixth day dating schemes are really just guesses. Nothing to hang anyone’s hat on.

    Maranatha!

  56. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I checked, the notes I have from 15 years ago are about unreadable. I also don’t want to waste my time trying to recreate this monster. I do see in the notes that I have the Ark resting in 2345 BC, Abram born in 2153 BC, Israel departing Egypt in 1332 BC and David taking the throne in Jerusalem in 996 BC. The rest I cannot put together. You admit that we can date to Solomon. I guess the rest all comes down to a literal interpretation of the length of years that the Kings of Judah and Israel reigned as given in the Hebrew texts and the dating of the late prophets. There were co-reigns and that makes the dating of the kings difficult, but still it is a little unbelievable to think that the Hebrew text could be so far off from the LXX.

    By the way, the Hebrew text is what is inspired, the scriptures were passed down through the Jews. Perhaps there is no 200 BC Dead Sea Scroll on the portion of the Hebrew text in question, but there is enough ancient Hebrew manuscripts that prove that the Hebrew text that we now have is totally reliable. On the other hand, The LXX Greek translation from the Hebrew is not infallible and it loses even more in translation when converted to English.

    Perhaps there is a reasonable explanation for the differences, but discounting the account given in the Hebrew text is not going to be the explanation that flies here.

  57. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    We do know that since Pentecost we have been in the last days and we have the prophecy that says in two days He will raise the Jews up and on the third day they will live in His sight. And like I said, Revelation says six times that the millennial reign is one thousand years and this reign is also equated to the Sabbath, the last day of the week.

    Other scriptures say a day with the lord is as one thousand years. So I do think there are some things we can hang our hat on. We are very close to that Sabbath rest. It is quite easy to figure out that the last days means that there will be about 2000 years from Pentecost until the Sabbath reign. What is more difficult is the dating for the first part of the week. I am sure God has it figured out, and like I said God could have started the week over when He announced to Noah that there would only be 120 divisions of time (50 year Jubilees?) where His Spirit would strive with men. And we really do not know when God said that to Noah and if God was counting from the time He said it or from the Flood. And we do not know if He was counting the millennial reign in that period or not.

  58. FountNo Gravatar says:

    (Since we are speculating about how to get to the timing of the end of the age…)

    IF you could “know” (with a very high level of probability) that ALL six of the following events were true…

    1) That the “7th day” will be the real Sabbath – with the Lord of the Sabbath – Jesus the Christ reigning over the whole earth while living in Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

    2) That there are exactly 6,000 years of time from a very specific event to the start of that 1,000 year-long Sabbath period. That this very specific event – not recorded in the Bible but related to it – is supported by some surprising non-Biblical evidence. That the end of the 6,000 years will be precisely known because of other known events shown below.

    3) That there is a “grand Jubilee cycle” consisting of a precise number of 49 year (the correct way of calculating them) Jubilee cycles that begins at its beginning – has its timing with our calendars confirmed by ancient documents – takes into specific account the exact length of the ministries of first the Jews & then the Christians – and ends with the final true Jubilee – the setting free all those who live upon the earth. That of course would be the same date when Jesus finally defeats the anti-Christ.

    4) That there is a very specific event in Jesus’ life that begins a very precise last days (exactly 2,000 years) countdown until the specific date the anti-Christ is finally defeated. That this event agrees to the day with the third event.

    5) That God, through a very precise prophecy in the Old Testament, His exactly timed actions in the New Testament and the above known events has already told us exactly what year the rapture will occur.

    6) That God through His exactly timed action in the New Testament has also told us the exact date on the Christian calendar (not the year) the rapture will occur.

    First – how would “knowing” these six events affect your Christian faith? How do think this collective “knowledge” would be received by the average Christian?

    Secondly – how do you think this collective “knowledge” would be received by non-Christians? Would it be useful in evangelizing them?

    Finally – which of these six “known” events would you have the most trouble accepting as being precisely accurate? Which would you have the least trouble accepting as accurate?

    Maranatha!

  59. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    Most Bible believing Christians would start counting from Creation as given in the Hebrew text, that speculation is ongoing and it answers your first four points.

    The problem with your fifth and sixth point is that the biblical week has nothing to do with the timing of the Rapture any more than the taking of Enoch alive to Heaven had anything to do with the timing of the great flood. It is clear from scriptures that the timing of the Rapture will not be known but that does not mean the timing of the end of the age cannot be determined.

    All Christians should be watching and waiting for the Lord to return at any time. As for non Christians, they cannot know the timing of the Rapture either and without the Holy Spirit drawing them to the message, they would not believe that the end of the age was coming even if we could give them a precise date.

    Does Bible prophecy speculation win converts? Ask Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and Tim Lehaye. Their message has helped reach millions to hear the gospel of salvation by grace through faith. I am one that got hooked by the Late Great Planet Earth and I personally have been told by many dozens of people that this book led them to Christ.

  60. Jeff MNo Gravatar says:

    Don,
    Your right about all the speculation. Since the seventies a lot of books have been written but I think in has strengthened the premillennial view trying to figure these things out.

    Fount,
    I appreciate the time you took to check out that website, I agree with you. It was just good to here it from a brighter bulb than me. :)
    I’ll stick to watching for Jesus’ return………Maranatha

  61. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Just to tie up the loose end of how I differ (really how the LXX differs) from Ussher (the MT). I have 5285 BC for Adam’s creation – Ussher has 4004 BC – a 1,281 year difference.

    There are 15 total scriptural differences in Genesis between the LXX and the MT: 100 years differences between father & son with 11 sons: Seth, Enos, Cainan (the first one), Mahalaleel, Jared, Methuselah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug & Nahor. Noah is off 6 years. The MT leaves out the second Cainan – off 135 years. Salah off 95 years. Terah off 50 years. So that totals from scripture a difference of 1,386 years.

    So now Ussher makes the assumption that Terah had Abram at age 130 when the Bible says he had him at 70 – off 60 years. Can’t blame Ussher though – he was relying upon a slightly different version of Acts 7:4 in his MT – the LXX says it correctly about Abraham moving his father’s body after HIS death – not Abraham moving after his father was dead. Then Ussher also adds another 45 years to his side when he has Abraham leaving their original land (the Chaldeans) in 1921 BC – whereas I have that date at 1876 BC. I believe his miscalculated that based on some relationship with the death of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon).

    Subtract his extra 105 years from the scriptural difference of 1,386 years and we should be off by 1,281 years – and we are…

    Maranatha!

  62. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I agree that Bishop Ussher was off on his dating but the great differences that you claim (1,281 years) between the MT and the LXX have not been adequately explained. Are you saying that all known ancient Hebrew texts are off in these genealogies or just the MT?

    Although the LXX was translated before 200BC there are no LXX manuscripts that exist earlier than 350 AD. So in that nearly 600 years there was plenty of time for corruption to be introduce into the LXX. I also doubt if the Greeks and Romans were anywhere near as careful in copying their texts over the years as were the Hebrew scribes. The MT text was put together later but the Hebrew texts came from somewhere even though we might not have access to them now. I would venture to say that the MT would be much closer to the original Hebrew autographs then is the LXX translation.

    People might read the following two articles to get the other side of the story. Earlier manuscripts does not always mean more accurate manuscripts. For example, we have earlier manuscripts of the Alexandrian Text, but I will go with the Received Text because apparently there were quite a few heretics in early Alexandria.

    http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/what-comment-would-you-make-about-the-very-great-differences-between-the-mt-lxx-samaritan-pentateuch/
    http://www.moresureword.com/LXXHOAX.htm

    Anyway, the debate continues among the scholars and it will not be solved here.

  63. SimonNo Gravatar says:

    Good day everyone, Don I would like to add some detail.

    Most people set the period for the Lord’s ministry as three and a half years. It ended at Passover which would mean his ministry started at Feast of Tabernacles, which makes sense for the Spirit of God to indwell at that time. The book of Kings also records that the Spirit went into the tabernacle at the seventh month at the feast. Jesus was anointed with the spirit, “GOD WITH US”.

    This month is also the memorial month for the creation, which may well also be the beginning of the age. Paul says that Satan is the god of this age. Whether that is true for the previous age is not certain, but taking this into account, we know that he gives his authority to the antichrist for the last three and a half years of this age and rules thru him. He told the Lord to worship him, and he shall give him all the kingdoms of this world because he says it was delivered unto him. So the the beginning of this age maybe started with the ministry of the Lord.

    Whether the age started at the beginning or end of the ministry, I believe it gives us the best indication of the starting point of the last days.

    Concerning the start of days as we count, the fact that the last days started almost 2000 years ago should tell us that the first should be counted from creation itself. Our Creator’s plan is based on his infinite knowledge. We are awaiting the rest on the seventh day. The Israelites were supposed to enter rest, but was forbidden because of unbelief. That was on day three. So according to our Creator’s foreknowledge he established the rest as the seventh day, not the third. There is therefore no need to begin the week other than at creation, because everything that happen and what is going to happen is based on foreknowledge.

    Daniel also said that the Israelites should accept the coming anointed one and bring in righteousness of the ages. Yet they did not, even so our Creator had everything planned, because from even before Daniel our Creator revealed his motive thru Passover, that the Anointed One was going to be the Passover Lamb. Everything is Foreknowledge. There is no change of mind to the first day from creation till after the flood.

    The Jews did not spoil the plan, neither did the lawless before the flood. Some have even suggested that each day tells a story. Like the third day when the waters were divided and dry land appear to be an image of the Red Sea crossing on dry land. But other points become too speculative.

  64. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Simon,

    We know we are in the last days because the NT says so. I do not think we need to speculate further on that. You say we are awaiting the rest of the seventh day but you really did not explain that point. It seems to me that the world is not in any seventh day millennial rest.

    Fount,

    I am not going to post your comment because in my opinion it is way too misleading and is a one sided view arguing for the LXX and the Alexandrian manuscripts as the preferred inspired text. In my opinion, you take what seems to be a Catholic position on these texts. I disagree with much of what you said, but I would have to write a book to dispute each of your points and that is not what this post is about. I think the arguments against much of what you said is provided in the second link in my prior comment. If you want to provide a link to arguments disputing the MT as the preferred text I will post the link even through I disagree with these arguments. However, I do not want these arguments in my comments misleading people and I do not want to write my own book against your Alexandrian and LXX views here. By the way, your suggestion that the Jews destroyed all their earliest manuscripts is ludicrous to me.

  65. ~DavidNo Gravatar says:

    Regarding the comments of authenticity and debatable LXX vs MT, etc…

    I think it is giving way too much credit to humanity that we could possibly thwart or distort The Lords intent and direction of the scripture.

    Sure, there is a lot of apostasy writings, debatable talking points, and false teachers out there, however, those seeking The Truth about The Living God’s Word and the obvious “season” we are living in should, in my opinion, be focusing on their relationship with The Lord and witnessing to others The Good News…not conjecture.

  66. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Don

    Thank you for your complement for having a strong one sided argument in favor of the LXX – in my experience the best arguments do tend to well support your own side. I created that argument over many years based on research from many sources. In my exploration, I haven’t found anyone else to have incorporated all the arguments that I do – so no link will be provided. It is fascinating to me that you would consider this to be a Catholic position when they REJECT the LXX – it would be much more of an Orthodox position since they still use the LXX as their Bible.

    My suggestion that the Jews destroyed all of their earliest manuscripts was not fully fleshed out. More properly “expanded” – they lost a lot of them because of what they wrote on, all the disasters that befell them and THEN they most likely destroyed the older ones that didn’t agree with their current version (why else are there not be ANY of them before 895 AD?).

    Quoting two highly regarded Christian Bible scholars – Geisler and Nix give several reasons for this dearth of manuscripts:

    #1 Jewish manuscripts were made on animal skins, which would not last near as long as literature written on clay tablets, which accounts for the existance of the Mari Letters, which date back to 1700 BC.

    #2 The Jews were conquered and exiled many times, making it quite difficult to preserve the manuscripts which they had. Jerusalem was conquered 47 times between 1800 BC and 1948 AD. The preserved Masoretic manuscripts come from outside of the land of Palestine.

    #3 Manuscripts which contained an error or were aged beyond use were destroyed.

    #4 When the Masoretes (successors to the Scribes) standardized the Hebrew text, it is quite likely that they destroyed all the deviating manuscripts (the evidence of this is circumstancial).

    Ludicrous is certainly in the eye of the beholder…

    Maranatha!

  67. DonNo Gravatar says:

    ~David,

    Many false teachers and false Christians claim a relationship with the Lord. But if the Lord they proclaim is not found in the scriptures they are liars. When we witnesses to others about the Lord, what we say needs to be founded on sound biblcal doctrine. Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. Any other foundation for a claim to have a personal relationship with the Lord is a man made foundation. People that are having their own relationship with a Lord who is made up in their own minds is the main problem in what is called Christianity today.

  68. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    This is going to be the last word between you and I on this subject on this comment section. Sowing doubt on the MT that the majority of Evangelical Christians use in their Bibles can be about the most harmful thing that I can think of.

    You admit to being a Lone Ranger on your text criticisms but you write it like it is some orthodox view that comes from superior knowledge. However, it really comes from buying into certain false presumptions that I said I am not going to get into here. The second link in my previous comment to you should point much of the error in your thinking out to you.

    By the way, the Orthodox are Catholics. Yeah, they use the LXX but so does the Roman Catholic Church. Jerome just translated the LXX into Latin, it is called the Vulgate with extra books and all.

    You quote Dr. Norman Geisler for why the ancient Hebrew texts cannot be found but Dr. Geisler would argue against using the LXX and Alexandrian texts over the MT.

    You implied in the comment that did not get posted that the Scribes destroyed the Hebrew ancient texts because they wanted to cover up that Jesus was the Messiah (that they did not even believe in). That is a Ludicrous presumption in the eye of this beholder.

    So now we are all supposed to put away our KJV bible and pretend that the LXX translation is closer to the original autographs. Then I suppose we should also believe that the Greek translation replaced the Hebrew texts and the Church replaced Israel to keep the Greek translations pure. Yeah, to me that whole concept is quite Ludicrous!

  69. Don

    In line with David’s comment:

    I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar and must use the translations available to me. This must have been the case with the vast majority of believers of the reformed Church and yet God saw fit to provide the English speaking Church with the KJV; I speak in a general way for we all know there were forerunners to it. My point is that although the KJV has a few minor problems it has been God’s word to many people for several centuries. God would be remiss if it was not trustworthy, if it was unreliable.

    With the plethora of translations today and so much utter trash on the market, babes in Christ can be in the same quandary as the man with a dozen watches, who because of the variations amongst them no longer knows the correct time.

    I love the KJV and use the ASV and occasionally the NIV, but is there a particular translation you would suggest to a new Christian Don?

  70. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Brian,

    I personally use NKJV and the KJV but I am sure there are some other good translations around.

  71. EduardoNo Gravatar says:

    Hi Don,

    Interesting post and commentaries. As always, you have stirred up mymind and put me to work. I´ve been thinking about the prophetic calendar you present and there are many verses that support this view. Nevertheless, I find something that doesn´t fit in it. It is about the interpretation of the verse that says: “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”(2Pe 3:8 KJV)And also this verse,taking about God’s eternal state and man’s temporal one: “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”(Psa 90:4 KJV)

    These verses could be read:

    1 day = 1000 yrs

    Now, if we read slowly it does not say: “one day is with the Lord a thousand years”. It really says: “one day with the Lord is AS a thousand years”. The word “as” is a comparative, not an indicative. Comparatives are used for things that are similar in one aspect but dissimilar in others. The indicative is used for things that are equal.

    For example, take note on this verse:

    “The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars ARE the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.”(Rev 1:20 KJV)

    Did you see the word “are”? It occurs two times. It is a indicative.

    Say, let’s see this other passage: “And a mighty angel took up a stone LIKE a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.”(Rev 18:21 KJV)

    Here the word “like” is the same Greek word that is translated as “as” in Peter. It is used as a comparative.

    So, when I see this –you know, I do not want to spoil anyone’s zeal for the Lord´s coming–, but I can only take it as the text says. One day is with the Lord as (similar, compared to, like) one thousand years. Meaning that He inhabits in eternity and doesn´t get bored, tired, restless as time goes by.

    So maybe Peter is just comparing eternity with time on earth.

  72. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Eduardo,

    That is a valid view. And even if a day is literally like a thousand years to the Lord that still does not mean it has to be exactly one thousand years either.

  73. What Eduardo says is a good point but the Bible leads me to believe that God is precise. The timing of Jesus 1st coming was precise to Daniel’s prophecy. The week Jesus died was precise for the passover (even to the time of day on the cross). There are so many references to two days and then on the third day. I know many teach the end is not date dependent but number dependent since Paul references “when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in”. I just think that the fullness of Gentiles will come in precisely at the time that has already been determined. Maybe we are wrong on this. If so, then no big deal. We know it will happen just as God says it will. That we can count on! That is why He is the Most High God and we are mere men!

  74. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Michael,

    Actually, those claiming that the coming is number dependent are talking about the coming for the Church at the Rapture. I know of no one that teaches the end of the age and the second coming in glory is number dependent.

  75. Don,

    Not to point out the obvious Don but you can’t have the second coming until after the rapture! Because the rapture is number dependent some won’t engage in conversations about the timing of the 2nd coming because to them the rapture could happen now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, and so on. This is possible but as you have stated there is intriguing evidence/clues to show the 2nd coming is a fixed timing which would mean “the fullness of Gentiles” although number dependent must take place in the next 10-15 years.

    I hope I’m making sense. Any way thanks for all you do!

  76. Ohio JulieNo Gravatar says:

    I pulled my head out of HaDavar’s lessons long enough to consider the new apostasy of the Catholic church. The Pope now claims following our conscience and belief in God will get us to heaven; never the mention of Christ. Is he taunting the Holy Spirit by opening the door to other spirits for conscience? Very scary leaving people to their own imaginations but then, the Pope will become the conscience for the world. That is the great Apostasy I see coming down the road very quickly.

    Dr. Fructenbaum has a great teaching program. I was happy to see Yeshua on the front page. Thanks’s to Ozz for the recommendation. Thanks to Don for providing a forum. I still think crazy things about the works and wonders being engineered for the anti-christ to take over but the path of God’ oversight does not falter and that is what I hang onto.

  77. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Ohio Julie,

    I think you should have said that the Pope now claims following our conscience and not belief in God will get us to heaven. After all, he was addressing atheists and agnostics and telling them if they follow their conscience that God will forgive and accept them.

    This Pope is antichrist and also believes things that conflict with his own Roman Catholicism.

  78. jimNo Gravatar says:

    Don,

    Do you think that the 40 jubilees of 49 years from 70AD to 2030AD have any significance?

  79. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Jim,

    70 AD could not have been a jubilee for Israel, it was a disaster for Israel.

    Now if you took 41 forty-nine year Jubilees from the day that the Lord announced the acceptable year of the Lord at about 26 to 32 AD, it would come out to about 2033 to 2040. That seems more fittings, but then keep in mind that maybe we should be using 360 days years not 365.25 or maybe we should be using 50 year Jubilees and not 49 year cycles.

    So the bottom is that:
    We do not know the calendar that is used
    We do not know for sure the length of the Jubilee cycle
    We do not know what year the Lord announced the acceptable year of the Lord.

    In other words, We simply do not know the year it will be when Jesus returns.

  80. Daniel S.No Gravatar says:

    I keep coming across this theology of “The Rapture of the Wicked” amongst conspiracy theorists countering christians putting forth the rapture of the saints, and even amongst evangelists and preachers on sermon audio whom I like to listen to on other subjects. It doesn’t ring true with me when I hear it, but I am also willing to confess ignorance and need of more bible study (as should everyone) but thought I’d run it by you…

  81. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Daniel,

    I guess a Rapture of the wicked might make some sense if they mean a gathering of the tares on earth by angels to be burned, but this is toward the end to the seven year period.

  82. jimNo Gravatar says:

    I was just re reading this post recently and I forgot how interesting this debate between the LXX and the Masoretic text was. Sometimes you can read something a dozen times and still learn something new you missed earlier.

    As for the possibility that God was giving mankind 120 divisions of time from His announcement to Noah seems feasible. It gets even more interesting that God said this 120 years before the flood. We know it could be 120 jubilees of 50 years, but many people disagree and say a true jubilee is actually 49 years. Well 6000 – 120 = 5880 which is exactly 120 jubilees of 49 years. If it means anything 5880 is divisible by basically every important number in the bible 3,6,7,12,20,21,24,40,70 120. Not sure if means ANYTHING haha but I was bored.

    I then realized that for this to have any relevance we would have to go with a 3000 BC flood and have the 6000 years end with the end of the millenium. I personally think it contradicts with the whole 6 + 1 model in scripture ( 6 days of work and 1 day of rest). This would ignore he day of rest the millenium seems to be. I still lean to the Masoretic text with the 6000 years starting from Adam. That is to say if the 6 day theory is correct……..

  83. FountNo Gravatar says:

    Jim

    My LXX calculations show 5285 BC for Adam; 3023 BC for the flood and then there is a 6,000 year period which ends with the beginning of the millennium. The last days (2) become that – the last 2,000 years before He comes again. Jesus still reigns the 1,000 years of the Millennium when God rests. All this does is move the beginning of the 6,000 year period to some time after 4000 BC (Don’s 2030 would make it 3970 BC for example). (The 6,000 years from Ussher’s 4004 BC didn’t come to pass.) Means the 6,000 years is not from the time of Adam but from some other time and event we don’t see recorded in scripture. To me it seems to be the limit on the time Satan gets to run this world…

    The Jubilee cycle does seem to put us in the proper neighborhood. The Noah reference to me is to the limit of the age of men in the future (we see a rapid drop in life length after that until we hit 120 years max – even until today). Man was not told of the Jubilee Cycle until the time of the Jews crossing over into the Promised Land. That means we probably can only use 70 Jubilees – yes they are of 49 years – but the freedom is not achieved until the 50th year of that same cycle (can’ use the 120 Jubilee cycle). Seventy Jubilees from the time the Hebrews cross the Jordan puts us a little short of Don’s article about the 2030 to 2035 AD timeframe. As Don will tell you – my timeframe is a little earlier than his… :)

    I might also say that 70 is also a Biblical number of completion. And my understanding gives the Jews 30 Jubilee Cycles as the only Chosen People of God and then the Christians 40 Jubilee Cycles as the Ambassadors of Christ.

    Maranatha!

  84. DonNo Gravatar says:

    Fount,

    I of course, do not believe any of your conjectures are true.

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