The revived Mediterranean Union will also be the revived Roman Empire

(Revised edition)

I have been saying that the Mediterranean Union (MU) will be the actual revived Roman Empire and not the EU alignment that we see today because many of the nations in the EU do not belong in the land area of  the old Roman Empire and others that belong in it are missing from the EU. Some have said I am wrong because the MU idea was recently not well received by certain nations. However, that is changing, it looks like Sorkozy’s MU idea will take root after all.

The Mediterranean Union as the revived Roman Empire makes more sense to me than the present EU for a lot of prophetic reasons. First of all, let me be clear, I am not saying the EU is going to die, it will probably just morph into the borders of the MU and move its headquarters to Rome. Whether or not the EU changes its name to the MU or even something else is really not important.

I still think the major change from the present EU to the borders of the proposed MU will take place during and after a world war with radical Islam that will include the Arab and Israeli war of Psalm 83. There has to be a war in the Middle East. How else can Israel rid the area of over 40,000 rockets that threatens all of Israel today? The Arabs are never going to peacefully give up their weapons and they are not going to recognize Israel’s right to exist in the Middle East as a Jewish state. A major war is certain.

Some of the Eastern nations in the EU are just not going to fit in with the West and will eventually form their own union probably dominated by Russia. Look at a ancient map of the land extent of the old Roman Empire. This will probably be about the same extent of the revised Roman Empire. The EU today simply does not fit.

The EU has its headquarters in Brussels Belgium which prophetically means absolutely nothing. The MU would much more likely have its headquarters located in Rome which prophetically means absolutely everything.

Israel will be in the MU as will the defeated states of Psalm 83 and others already predetermined to be part of the MU. This makes the prophetic statement about the Antichrist figure confirming a covenant with the “many” for seven year much more plausible. The only way Israel can live in peace and security with hostile neighbors is if it is enforced by a force larger than any of the nations involved. Being part of the MU is a rational reason why Israel would be living in peace and security prior to the Ezekiel 38 and 39 war.

Israel is to become part of this revived Roman Empire also known as the MU. The peace and security in Israel is prophetically absolutely required before the war of Ezekiel 38 and 39. The covenant or treaty the Antichrist confirms with all these nations is the conditions lain down by Israel and the Western powers after the war of Psalm 83, the war against radical Islam, and probably the Ezekiel war.  At the end of the Ezekiel war, the God of Israel will reveal Himself to Israel and the whole world by His supernatural intervention which destroys the army of the northern invaders.

The “many” that this later Antichrist figure from the MU confirms the agreement with could be ten regional zone leaders within the MU. A much expanded Israel  could be one of the ten zones. Then 3 1/2 years after confirming this agreement, this world leader breaks the pact with Israel after Israel’s two prophets are killed. Then he attempts to appease and deceive all the world nations that hate Israel and the Israeli God and he eliminates three leaders and three MU zones in order to make room for his new Babylonian province that God identifies as Babylon the Great.

This article by Chris Perver will give you the latest on the revived Mediterranean Union. It is good to see that he also thinks this Mediterranean Union fulfills the prophecy of a Revived Roman Empire.

EU to Revive Mediterranean Union ~ Bible Prophecy Today

The French Foreign Ministry has announced that the Union for the Mediterranean, a project aimed at boosting ties between the European Union and Mediterranean states, is to be formally revived at the end of this month. The announcement follows a meeting of French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit, who jointly hold the presidency of the new bloc.

As we saw at its inception, far from being a political project aimed at merely increasing peace and prosperity in the Mediterranean region, Sarkozy’s vision of the Union for the Mediterranean is nothing less than a revival of the old Roman Empire itself.

The French President claimed in February 2007, “within every man and woman who lives on the shores of the Mediterranean sleeps the memory, nostalgia, for the unity lost 15 centuries ago”. He added that he wanted to be “the president of a France that will set the Mediterranean on the path of its reunification, after 12 centuries of division”. That vision, of a revival of the order of the old Roman Empire, is also shared by other politicians involved in the European Union project. Last year European Commission President Manuel Barroso, when questioned on exactly what the European project hoped to achieve, claimed that the EU was the world’s first “non-imperial empire”. Belgian politician Paul-Henri Spaak, who famously called for a man, “be he god or devil”, to lift the nations out of the economic morass into which they were sinking, was a signatory to the Treaty of Rome which established the institutions of the European Union. When asked how he felt when signing the treaty, he said, “we felt like Romans on that day… We were consciously recreating the Roman Empire once more”.
(bold emphasis mine)

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 Don Koenig founded website in 1999 after almost thirty years of independent study on the Bible and learning from many astute teachers within Christendom. Don created his website to write about Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and his Christian worldviews. Don wrote a free Revelation commentary ebook in 2004 named "The Revelation of Jesus Christ Through The Ages". The World and Church and Bible Prophecy section of this website was started in 2007.


27 thoughts on “The revived Mediterranean Union will also be the revived Roman Empire

  1. Here’s some more wild speculation that I will throw in because I want it to either stand or get shot down long before I ever consider putting it into a book (which I have actually been working on for a couple of years).

    The Beast of revelation is spoken of both as a world power and a man. I already said I think the Catholic church is the Harlot that rides the beast. I actually think there is more to her connection with it. The EU is being built on principals spoken of by successive Popes during the last few centuries. The organisational structure is a pyramid, as is the church. The politic is socialist. Espoused by that church. The religion (and there is a favoured religion) is Catholic.
    At the moment the connection between the Catholic church and EU state is below surface. I think there is a good chance it will emerge as a full rebirth of the Holy Roman Empire.
    The EU has been largely financed and pushed politically by Germany. Which during the 40s was trying to do the same thing by force with a lot of help from the Catholic church. Back in the 1920s The Pope of the day told the German Kaiser that he wanted Germany to be “the sword of the church”. In the 40s Germany was defeated and cut in two. Could that have been the head that was wounded by the sword (war) but healed itself (reunification)?

    That may fit the beast/world power. But what about the beast/man. This is where my speculation gets wild. But the future is going to be wild anyway. Don’t forget these people are going to be performing lying signs and wonders!

    Imagine this. The EU declares itself a religious state and looks for a suitable Holy Emperor who has already got the charisma and profile that would make him a hit with the world. He doesn’t need to be anything more than a figurehead who can make good speeches, because the power behind the throne will write his words.
    To fit prophesy he must be a man of fierce countenance. He must have been wounded in the head and arm, but healed/resurrected. He must have an image that can speak and that people are happy to worship. Does the wounds/death/resurrection happen to the man or his image?
    It was literal for the beast/world power. Does it need to be literal for the man?

    Now who is there on the world scene that even loosely fits that bill? Who has an image that was wounded in the eye and arm, and was killed but resurrected? Who has there recently been speculation about him moving back to Europe and standing for the post of EU president?

    OK. I just put my flack jacket on. Go for it 🙂

  2. Remember the ten kings have to come to power first which will probably come from 10 zones in the revived Roman Empire. I also would think the wounds will be literal. This man will overcome human death in some way because he can defeat the two witnesses and is not killed at the return of the Lord instead he is cast alive by angels into the Lake of Fire. Further, keep in mind that he becomes supernatural in the midst of the last seven years. We are not even in the last seven years yet so nobody can know with any certainty who that man will be; the head wound does not happen until mid-trib and then he kills the prophets and goes on into the Temple.

    Also the wounding of the world power Beast seems to happen when the three kings are killed so I doubt if Germany has fulfilled that prophecy. The Revived Roman empire has not been put together yet although many have tried to do it with the last two being Hitler and the EU.

  3. By the three kings killed I assume you mean Daniel’s three uprooted horns. Is that the exact same beast though? I thought that to be the first Roman empire, depicted by a beast with only one head but eleven horns, three being uprooted leaving eight.
    The Revelation beast is a combination of all Daniel’s four, but different in that there are ten horns/crowns, so it would appear that three of the horns/crowns are shared among the seven heads.
    That seems to me to indicate that the second Roman empire is different in structure from the first. And the uprooting of horns/killing kings. Doesn’t happen this time. Instead we have a head wounded.
    This is why I liked the WEU. It started with seven members, but one of them (Britain) wears three crowns!

  4. I said that last sentence wrong. The WEU started out with The UK and six other European countries. But UK is made up of four, England. N.Ireland. Scotland and Wales. Giving the WEU a three ‘crowns’ surplus.

  5. Danial and Revelation on much of this are parallel accounts talking about the same future. Daniel chapter 7 talks three times about ten horns, there are no eleven horns mentioned in Daniel unless you are talking about the little horn that comes up among the ten but that obviously is talking about the future Antichrist. The original Roman Empire did not fulfill these prophecies.

    Much of the UK was not even in the Roman Empire. Like you said yourself the EU did not fulfill what prophecy teachers expected back in the 70’s. Obviously we have to look elsewhere for the ten horn kings.

  6. I agree there are similarities. But the differences are too major for them not to mean something. The ten horns on Daniel’s beast were all on just one head. They had no crowns. The eleventh horn came up among them, but not among those on the Revelation beast. I agree that Daniel’s little horn was a type of Antichrist. But is it the final one?

    It may be insignificant now anyway, being as the WEU is being wound up, but Rome had invaded all of the UK at the time of John receiving the Revelation. They pulled back out of Scotland and built Hadrian’s wall in AD 128.
    I used to wonder why those movies about the Antichrist had him with a Scottish connection. Maybe some Freemason idea being put in the mix. Then Tony Blair getting were he is sparked my curiosity again. He is Scottish. Probably just a diversionary tactic!

  7. This is basic Bible prophecy 101 stuff. They were not different ten horns they both speak of the end time Beast and the ten horns in her. They are different points of view of the same reality. The ten horns or kings are in the end time Beast in Daniel and in Revelation. You cannot argue a different interpretation because Daniel did not mention crowns, that is arguing from a point of omission. It is obvious that that both Daniel and Revelation are talking about the same Beast and its leadership. Read the whole context of these passages on the ten horns on the Beast and you should get the picture.

    Obviously the little horn is the Antichrist figure the angel explains it to Daniel:

    Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    All the maps of the furthermost extent of the Roman Empire that I have seen do not have most of the UK included. I believe your point was that at one time you thought the four states in the UK make up the missing four horns when the first states came into the EEC. I simply informed you that some of the UK was not in the original Roman Empire and that is true.

    I really have better things to do with my time. There are hundreds of books already explaining the Beast of Daniel and Revelation including my Revelation Commentary.

  8. Don, Daniel 8:17 onward is an explanation of his vision of the two horned ram (Media and Persia) and the Shaggy Goat (king of Greece).
    My understanding is that the large horn on the goat was Alexander the Great. And the four horns that replaced him were his four generals who took over his empire and split it into four kingdoms.
    You take up the explanation at verse 23 were it says “in the latter part of their reign”…
    How can this be the future Antichrist when the latter part of their reign was thousands of years ago?
    The latter part of their reign surely refers to the time of the emerging Roman empire beast. That swallowed their kingdoms. And the little horn grew out of the head of that beast, not the one in Revelation.
    If that is the case, basic Bible prophesy 101 that has been established by those hundreds of books you mention. Is a little out of focus.
    This must have something to do with the spirit of Antichrist hopping from person to person down the generational line of the seed of the serpent.
    His appearance in Daniel’s vision must have been a prototype.

  9. Actually I think the chapter 8 vision spans from Media/Persia until the end of the age.

    Verse 23 does not say “in the latter part of their reign. It actually say “in the latter time of their kingdom” But bible prophecy often has a early fulfillment and than almost seamlessly jumps to the end time fulfillment. The Antichrist prototype called Antichus Epiphanes came out of the Greek Seleucid Empire branch that become absorbed by the Roman Empire and many think the actual Antichrist will also come out of the area of the old Seleucid kingdom. Some think that multiple fulfillment’s happen because it is the same reincarnating spirit that bring about the early fulfillment and the latter.

    If the head of that beast is not the same one in Revelation. Why not?? Daniel 7 makes it quite clear that they are the same entity and if they are not, than the little horn in Daniel 7 would have to be a different little horn than chapter 8.

    Let me put it this way, you really are not making it clear to me what it is that you’re talking about.

  10. What I am saying is I don’t think the beast’s empire of the last days needs to look like that of John’s day. I am certain it will encompass the geographical areas of Daniel’s four beasts, but it could encompass a lot more. In fact, in one way it does already (in the spiritual sense) through the Roman Catholic Church’s influence worldwide. Remember. The Bible refers to the beast as a man, a genetic line (seed of the serpent), an empire, and a spirit. So the over expansion of the EU that you mentioned in another thread may not be an issue.

    I think it is right to look at prophesy from the plan view rather than a linier timeline. But we must take note when something is pegged to an historical event. Like the way Gabriel pegged the first appearance of the Antichrist spirit in the form of a horn to the latter day reign of the four Greek generals, or kingdoms (depending on which translation we use. I used the NIV)

    If we only look at prophesy from a plan view. We can miss the important differences in the narrative that may have been deliberately put there to tell us something.
    Without doubt it is the same Antichrist spirit from start to finish. But is it always the same form that the empire/beast takes?
    Daniel’s beast had only one head. Revelation’s beast has seven. Do they get injured in the same way? Daniel’s beast’s wound wasn’t fatal for the head. His horns were not crowned. And there is no appearance of the Antichrist horn on Revelation’s beast.
    Can this mean he does not rise out of the latter day beast? Maybe he has been hiding in a bloodline over the centuries waiting for the day when he will once again take his thrown as Priest/King.

    I suspect that the uprooting of the three horns was only done to Daniel’s beast because it is only depicting the overthrowing of Roman leadership during the time of the first beast/empire. And for that reason I don’t think it is the wound to the head of Revelation’s beast.

    So what is the wound to the head?
    Looking at prophesy from the plan view, I think it could be the wound that happened spiritually when Luther split the church, and physically when the allies divided Germany. The physical wound is healed and the spiritual wound is in the process of being healed.

  11. That the revived Roman empire could have different borders than the original Roman Empire has been the view of those who believed the EU was the Beast, but it still had to have ten horns. I do not discount that there will be differences between the Old Roman Empire and the revised but it still has to fit John’s prophecy.

    Actually, the Roman Catholic Church system worldwide has nothing to do with the Beast and everything to do with the Woman that Rides the Beast of Revelation 17.

    The EU could fulfill what is said in Revelation is if ten kings arrive in it and give power to the Beast. You cannot change the prophecy just because it does not fit now. One way the EU could instantly fit that prophecy is for the EU to downplay national sovereignty and govern the EU through ten zones with ten governors. Guess what? That has already been suggested. Even so, I do not think the EU now reflects the final make-up of the revived Roman Empire. The Mediterranean Union suggested by France actually does fit the Old Roman Empire borders much better and it also could have the ten zone EU suggestion included. That makes sense to me because Israel is included in that union and that would explain the leader of the Roman Empire making a “covenant with the many”.

    The NIV is not a very literal translation it is more a paraphrase. I would hardly use that version for any fine detail about Bible prophecy.

    There only is one Beast Kingdom and that is not the Roman Empire that fulfilled the prophecy of the seventh world Kingdom. The Beast is the eighth world Kingdom but is of the seventh, in other words she comes out of a revival of the Roman Empire. Also, Daniel and Revelation are talking about the same Beast and the ten horns are the same ten leaders.

    The differences in the narratives are given to tell us something so that we can more fully understand and not because they are different Beasts. The book of Daniel prophecies were sealed to Israel but the book of Revelation is not sealed to the Church. So we can look at Revelation and properly discern what Daniel said. The Jews still do not have a clue because they do not interpret the Old Testament with the New. We should and must.

    Daniel’s Beast had one head because he was looking forward in time to the Beast Kingdom. Revelation talks about seven head because it is looking back in time to the seven world kingdoms. The last kingdom is still the Beast in both Revelation and Daniel. Therefore, the head wound is the same although this vision of Daniel does not get into the same detail, it was never meant to. Those details are probably found within other chapters in Daniel that goes into much more detail about the end time wars but good luck figuring that all out. Also keep in mind that the main focus in Daniel’s vision is the future world kingdoms of the world and Israel and not the Antichrist.

    There is no “he” hiding in the bloodlines because the Beast/Antichrist does not even become the Beast antichrist until in the midst of the final week of years. Sure there could be a demon spirit called Apollonian that comes out of the pit and reincarnates into the final Antichrist but he does not need to be hiding in human bloodlines now, although he could have possessed other people along the way, for example Nero, Hitler etc. Nevertheless this spirit cannot take power over the world until he that hinders is taken out of the way. So Satan can raise up a thousand world want-to-be’s but they will all be defeated until the time set by God.

    There was no first Beast/empire it is the eighth world empire and it is of the seven. Daniel is talking about the ten kings that give power to that Beast and three will be removed, that did not take place in some past kingdom. There simply is no reason to believe there are two Beast kingdoms and two head wounds.

    It seems to me that you’re trying to come up with something new based on your own conjectures but they do not fly. You ask what is the wound to the head and then you suggest the wound is the split off of protestantism from the Roman Church. What you are doing is mixing the idealist interpretation of Revelation with the futurist view of Revelation and creating a hybrid make out of thin air. Christendom is not the Beast. Pseudo Christianity becomes the one who rides the Beast she cannot be fornicating with all the kings of the earth and be the kings at the same time. She is the Harlot of Revelation 17 that rides the Beast into power so she cannot be the Beast. Besides the Beast later kill her. He would then be killing himself if apostate Christianity was the Beast. Then to suggest that Germany also fulfills the prophecy of the Beast head wound has no foundation in the scriptures it is shear conjecture.

    If this is what you are considering putting in your book you better get a flack jacket.

    Like I said, I have better things to do with my time. I really see no point of going on with discussions that are not based on proper exegesis of scripture just to come up with something new. I think you should stick with the established scholarship that is already lain rather than just trying to make it up as you go along.

  12. Phil ,
    Have you ever studied 2nd Esdras in the Apocrypha. NO , I am not suggesting that it should be
    included in the Bible. There is some really wierd stuff there about an eagle and a lion
    in chapters 11 to 13. I do not automatically disregard the Apocrypha Books as total heresy.
    There is certanily some valid historical data in Maccabees. In Revelation and many other places
    God uses the number 7 to signify completeness. Am I the only who wonders why does our bible
    have “66 ” books ? Also in the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew in ” The Greek ” the number of
    nouns, verbs, words that are not nouns , etc , etc , the list goes on and on , everything is
    exactly evenly divisble by 7 . My source for this , Chuck Missler , in his
    commentary on Matthew.

  13. Don Fritts, I did scan through those books a very long time ago, but I didn’t study them. I am cautious about stuff that was left out of the Bible. It was left out for a reason.

  14. Don

    That may be true but as much as I like Missler I have found that he is not a reliable source on this kind of stuff. After all, Missler also bought into the hidden equal distance Bible codes and maybe still does. Does he give a source for where he got the information or does he claim to have counted the words himself? I doubt if you can even get the answer to that question from Missler. Just take his word for it because he heard it somewhere seems to be the authority to say certain things.

    As for Esdras I think Phil said it all, They are not inspired books and you are not going to find any keys to Bible prophecy in them.

    The bible has 66 books because that is how many books were accepted into the Canon until the Catholics later added the Apocrypha.

  15. Considering the fact that the Roman emperors (adopting Babylonian practice) were priest/kings who claimed to be god and held both spiritual and temporal (governmental) power. Don’t you think that when that same role was passed on to the Pope, that it created an illicit joining of Church and State. A relationship that (using Biblical terms) may be described as fornication?
    To describe the Harlot as riding the beast in the way any woman might ride a horse is missing it.
    The Harlot is not the beast. I never suggested she was. But the beast is also a man, who may be the head of the Harlot Church.
    And by their connections to her directly and through their connections to the beast, the kings of the earth (be they ten or ten thousand) are fornicating with her.

    I never said they were different beasts. I said they are the same beast with different characteristics. And I say now that I think this depicts a process of morphing into the final beast/kingdom.

    You say there is no “he” hiding in the bloodlines. Then you agree with me that the Antichrist spirit could be popping up throughout the ages to possess the likes of Nero and Hitler. Why do you reject the possibility that it may be using a bloodline? Doesn’t ‘the seed of the serpent’ mean anything? Can iron mixed with clay only have a physical interpretation? Doesn’t the Bible tell us that the angel/man hybrids exist this side of the flood? They have long since failed to contaminate the bloodline of Jesus. So what are they up to now?

    Wasn’t the Catholic Church of Luther’s day “Pseudo Christianity”?

    Of course it is my conjecture. But at least I am willing to put it under the scrutiny of my brothers and sisters before I try to sell it to anyone as truth. That’s a lot better than what many on the prophesy circuit do!

    The Bible tells us that in the last days knowledge will increase. I think it means both scientific and spiritual knowledge. But I don’t think that spiritual knowledge will be given only to one man. Be that yourself, or those you esteem. I think it will given, in gifts to many. And I think we can all benefit from listening to each other. Without being sarcastic!

  16. So you think the Whore is killed by the kings that put her in power?? That is what your position suggests because Revelation 17 clearly says that this is what happens. The Head of the Harlot cannot be the Beast because the Beast is last world Empire that the ten kings have given their power to, and it is the man leading it.

    I suggest you read my Revelation commentary specifically chapter 17 and 18, it is on the top bar. In those chapters I explain that the Woman Harlot is all world religion since Babylon and Babylon the Great is all world kingdoms that Satan administrated with the last of course being called the Beast.

    I suppose a demonic Spirit could be working through certain bloodlines but I cannot say from scripture that the spirit regards bloodlines. You are suggesting that there are satanic lines of people in the world back from the time of Cain. You do know that the serpent seed doctrine has been labeled as a heresy, I hope. People choose to reject Christ or accept Christ salvation and damnation is not passed down from generation to generation. Actually, the Bible does not tell us that angel/man hybrids exist this side of the flood. Any such concept is shear conjecture from the iron clay passage that you suggest, but believe me that is pretty weak conjecture and even if there are hybrids in the future they do not exist today. Demonic spirits are not physical beings you know, you seem to want to make a demon a human hybrid. Demons may be disembodied spirits that came from hybrids but there is quite a difference. If the Angels again produce these beings on earth they will be physical super human beings like they were before the flood.

    Actually in the time of Luther’s day there were phoney Christians within the Catholic Church and within the Lutheran Church but there were also true Christians otherwise we would not have had all the martyrs or some coming out of the Roman Church? But even as some joined with Luther and others many there also departed from true Christianity.

    I see that your willing to put your conjecture up for peer review but I hate for my blog to become a sounding board for every new conjecture. That is not going to educate people it will confuse them. I prefer my blog builds on more solid Biblical teachings rather than becoming the British rag of Bible prophecy.

    Knowledge of Bible prophecy is built on learning the scriptures and building upon them by learning to correlate scriptures and build upon sound teachings of others in the Church. The” little hear little there” passage applies. New truth is not just going to pop up out of some man because he has a conjecture and now everyone is going to buy into it. Come to think of it, the buying into it part might, and that is why we have the Harold Camping. Obviously putting too much weight on conjectures and looking for sources outside the Bible to teach the Bible leads to all sorts of heresy.

    If I am sarcastic it is because I keep telling you I do not have the time to waste on your off beat conjectures on this topic, so take the hint or nothing further will be posted on it.

  17. Phil,

    I certainly would like to hear what you have to say about your love for Christ and the topics that Don gives us but can I suggest that you read Don’s article, “Those Obsessed With Bible Prophecy Might Become Unprofitable Servants”.

  18. Hi Don
    You don’t hold with Genesis 6:4 “and also after that” as referring to a continuation of the Nephilim after the flood?

    Have you written anything on the subject, I would like to know your thoughts on that phrase.

  19. Brian,

    I believe the actual bodies of the Nephilim were killed after God destroyed the world that these Angel/Human hybrids had corrupted. He did it with a worldwide flood. I think these Angel/Human hybrids body’s were killed in the flood but their spirits lived on as disembodied spirits looking for someone on the earth to possess (these are the demons). The Book of Enoch speaks of this. So what about the Giants that appear after the flood? I think they came from the corrupted genetics from one or more of Noah’s sons wives.

    Having said that, I think there is a difference between the two groups of giant beings. I think after the flood it was desirable for the wandering reincarnating spirits to possess those that carried this giant gene. The difference is those whose bodies were cut of in the flood were actually Angel/Human hybrids. Those after the flood were just big demonically possessed people not supermen.I also think that this is the main reason why God destroyed all flesh on earth in the flood and also told Israel to kill all in Cainan. They had the giant gene so the demons would favor them and posses them and soon this Holy nation called Israel would be led into all kinds of sin by them.

    I wrote articles that discuss this on this on my website and blog but they suggest much the same thing about the Nephilim.

    Some think that there were Angel/Hybrids created after the flood but other than the reference to these huge men after the flood, I can see no support that Angels were involved with women. In fact, we know from scripture that the angels that created the hybrids before the flood are chained and are awaiting judgment, so it is not likely that more fallen angels would have pulled that stunt again right after the flood. Even so, it is possible that they might do it again in the last days because all the angels of Satan will be forced to dwell on the earth like men.

  20. Hi Don
    I had not read your previous comment well enough, “Actually, the Bible does not tell us that angel/man hybrids exist this side of the flood”.
    I was reading ‘giants’ rather than hybrids and with the Bible speaking of giants later on, I wondered what you were getting at.
    However I am not sorry to have asked the question, your answer was clear, concise and as far as I can see thoroughly Biblical, and therefore well worth the repeating.

    I could never understand how such creatures could come into being after the flood without further interaction with angels until the idea of those genes being carried by one of the daughters in law was introduced. I cannot remember where I first heard that (it may even have been from one of your writings)but it was one of those pieces that suddenly fit into place.
    Thanks for your patience.

  21. Well, if the kings are represented by the horns in the head of the beast, and the beast kills the harlot, they are obviously involved in killing her.
    Nero held the position of Priest/king of the Roman Empire. We have agreed that he may have been a type of Antichrist. Would it be too much of a stretch to say that his actions in those days were a foreshadow of what the real Antichrist would do? Persecuting true Christians. Making peace with the Jews etc. Didn’t he burn Rome? Couldn’t that be symbolic of the man who is both head of religion and state, turning on and destroying the harlot religion?

    “Purple was the color of Roman imperialism and scarlet is the main color adopted by Roman Catholicism. The Vatican is the chief entity that speaks for religion on the earth and that is not just a coincidence. The Vatican is the only religious state and it has embassies in most nations of the world and has a non-voting seat at the UN as a consultant to this world body. In the end times, she will be the head of the harlot world religion when she and many other religions merge into a one-world religion with its headquarters being at the Vatican in Rome”.

    I took the paragraph above from your Revelation commentary. I totally agree with you. And from your analysis I think purple also shows that the Catholic Church is connected to the Roman beast in a way that is much more than merely riding on it’s back. They share the same priest/king head. And that does not preclude this priest/king destroying the religion he is head of when he demands they worship him as god, rather than Mary and the Saints etc.

    I believe that Satan is attempting to use a similar plan to incarnate himself into this world as priest/king; to that used by God, which will culminate in Jesus Christ (the priest/king) ruling the world.
    To achieve this he is using types of Antichrist, just as God has used types of Jesus. He is using a bloodline, just as God used a bloodline to bring himself into the world. And he is building a body/church that he will be head of, just as Christ is building his body/church.
    The similarities are too numerous to dismiss. This is nothing less than Satan’s attempt to achieve his declared goal of being equal to God.

    My views on the seed of the serpent may be considered by some to be heresy, but that doesn’t frighten me. There are many others such as the late J R Church and Gary Stearman who hold similar views to me. I am not sure whether the seed came through the flood in the genes of a woman, or of one of the beasts, or is the result of fallen angels getting up to their old tricks again. But there is no Biblical reason to say it is not still with us today!
    The word heresy has too often been used by the old guard to bully those who challenge their dogma. And I am speaking as one who has forty years in the Lord.
    It’s not so long ago that Bill Sallus’s idea’s would have been bullied out of the prophetic schools as heresy too. We are in the time of increasing knowledge. Old dogma is being swept aside.

    Harold Camping and sources outside the Bible is a grossly unfair thing to say. I have used the Bible, and only the Bible to support my conjecture. To compare me to a heretic who claims Jesus is the angel Michael, is nothing short of wicked, and a prime example of bullying tactics!

  22. Phil ,
    I think it is very wise to view with extreme caution any books left out of the Bible . There
    are many opinions about them and I take everything I read with caution.
    Don :
    I take Chuck Missler with a “grain of salt.” I ‘ve meet Chuck personally and had some interesting conversations with him. He was completely WRONG about Y2K and he made a big deal
    about it. I’ve learned a lot from him , but as you have stated sometimes his conjectures are
    pretty wild.

  23. Phil,

    David is correct, you should read the article that he suggested. You obsess over things you can’t possibly know is a correct interpretation of Bible prophecy and you downplay the scholarship of real Bible scholars and elevate the conjecture of hip shooters. I do not know about Stearman but J.R. Church was a loon that was every bit as strange in some of his conjectures on Bible prophecy as Harold Camping. Have you ever read his “Hidden prophecy in the Psalms” book. It is the stupidest peace of conjecture based on nothing seen in scripture that I ever read. Every year in the 20th century he suggested paralleled a chapter in the book of Psalms, for example, Psalm 90 tells us about the year 1990 Psalm 91 tells us about the year 1991 etc.. by his reasoning in his book the end of the age should have come in the year 2000 AD. Then after nothing fit and after the year 2000 came and went he was still selling this book in Bible prophecy conferences?? Just like Camping that never admits that his silly contrived conjecture is wrong.

    We have plenty of people coming up with every new wind of doctrine, we do not need more. People need to study to show themselves approved. Build on good scholarship rather than taking conjecture and trying to build new conjectures on conjecture.

    I should not have to explain to someone who studies the Bible why the Serpent Seed Doctrine that you are suggesting is a heresy rejected by the Church. If you need to be educated on the problems with this doctrine read this article, or just do a Google search on that topic and find out who it is that is promoting this heresy today. I will give you a clue (Some in Dominion theology and racists).

    For those that want every conjecture accepted as truth, obviously they think everything the Church should entertain them. But the Bible tells us to test all things taught to see if it is so. Nevertheless, when people question any strange conjecture the defense of the conjecturer is that those who test all thing with what the scripture actually says are bullying them. I have read Bill Salus and nothing he says would be considered heresy by premillennial scholars. He is adding to the knowledge already established on minor issues of Bible Prophecy. He is not suggesting that Satan has a blood line on earth when scripture clearly teaches that God created all, and is willing to save all. Most with theories on Bible prophecy do not base their conjecture on Serpent Seed doctrine heresy where Satan becomes the creator of whole groups of people and salvation is not possible for them.

    I said it is these unfounded conjectures that produce the Harold Campings heretics. I did not say you have become one, but if you are going to continue promoting the “Serpent Seed Doctrine” disguised as a Bible Prophecy conjecture, because you think the Bible supports it, you already qualify.

    As for your other comments, If the Antichrist was both the head of the State and the head of world Religion you would not have another Beast rising up out of the land promoting him. He would already be head of the World Harlot, but it seems rather clear that the Beast turn on the World Harlot religion and with the help of the False Prophet promotes himself above anything called God and he demands to be worshiped as God. Popes hardly claim to be above anything called God and they do not hate the Woman that they represent as her head.

    More likely the Antichrist will claim to be Zeus because Zeus is called the God of Gods and we know the Antichrist puts a statue of himself in the Temple to be worshiped. Well the Antichrist foreshadow Antiochus Epiphanes did exactly that. He claimed that he was incarnated by Zeus (Jupiter) and he put up a statute of Zeus in the Temple. So who will buy into the Zeus stuff in the future? All old age and new age pagans that believe that man can evolute to become Gods. So the religion of the Antichrist is not going to be pseudo-Christianity or Islam. Those that support him in the last 42 months are going to be New Age pagans that hate the ideal that there is a sovereign God in heaven that they have to submit to. Their God is in various different degrees of evolution and collective man becomes above anything called God (pantheism).

  24. I don’t say I agree with everything J R Church said. But to call him a loon is to throw the baby out with the bath water.
    You put down Chuck Missler for “shooting from the hip” on subjects that are a matter of open debate. Who knows whether or not there is a skip code in the Bible? The man is one of the finest Bible teachers around.

    No matter how astute we may consider ourselves, we can all be blinded to a piece of Biblical truth because we hold to mistaken dogma. I still doubt that thirty years ago Sallus’s ideas would have been accepted. There are still people today who insist Psalm 83 is only a prayer, and should be treated as allegory.
    When he told you his thoughts on Israel coming back to the God of the OT, but not Jesus. You nearly fell of your chair. If that had been me telling you that, I bet you would have immediately called me a heretic!

    Well I can’t for the life of me understand why you have a problem with my “seed of the serpent” theory. Other than the fact that you think me a know nothing nobody.

    You use an argument about about God not exempting anyone from the possibility of salvation. Then you say you believe those pre-flood Hybrids to be today’s demons. You got that from the book of Enoch. Not a 100% reliable source, but I agree with you. How does that fit with “it’s appointed for a man to die once. After that the judgement”? Do you think all unsaved people become demons, or are these hybrids special cases?
    You try to make some distinction between angel/man hybrids and the giants that lived after the flood, when it is clear, even if we use your wives of Noah’s son’s dogma, that we a talking about the same genetic corruption. And there is absolutely no Biblical support for those born after the flood having been all killed off.
    I won’t argue about what form the world religion will take, or what we should call it. It won’t have our Lord involved, so it will lead to Hell.

  25. Phil,

    This is the last time I am going to entertain what you say on this post because you REALLY ARE wasting my time, not to mention that your violating my commenting policy in many ways. I think I have given you enough space to vent here.

    When people write books that are just plain loony they might be called loons. I did not say that J.R. Church never wrote anything worthwhile, but I would hardly use him like you did as the model of support for a heresy that you hold with him.

    I really am sick and tired of those writing books to sell endless conjectures to those with itching ears. What a hell of a waste of time all this is, it does nothing for the Body of Christ. People that follow them need to get a life and that includes the millions that hang on the words of Jack Van Impe each week. All their false speculations and conjectures is the very reason that premillennial theology is going into great decline and the world and other Christians mock us. Instead of people learning what the Bible says from real Bible scholars or even reading the Bible for themselves they spend there whole life looking for some new theories to feed their obsession about ever minute detail of something that they claim they will not even be here to experience. WHAT IS THE POINT!!!

    I have said I like the teaching of Chuck Missler, but I have been around his teaching long enough to know that you need to check out what he says. If you want to get your head chopped off and handed to you get on a forum with real Bible scholars and just use Missler’s theories and claims for your support. To be fair to Chuck Missler even he says that you need to check him out with the Bible within almost all of his teachings. I think he says this because he is quite aware that he often shoots from the hip. Missler has a good overview of the Bible and a good Christian worldview and he can teach on it and he makes it intrusting, but I would hardly put him in the same league with real Bible scholars like MacArthur, Geisler or Ice and I do think he would want to be put in that league either.

    Most of the people that think Psalm 83 is a prayer are amillennial and that is why they think it is allegory. If you’re someone that allegorizes end time Bible prophecy obviously you would do the same with Psalm 83. And I don’t remember almost falling off my chair when Salus said Israel would come back to God before they came back to Christ. Even Missler taught that a decade before I ever read anything from Salus.

    I do not know why you think I would call you a heretic but that I would not call Salus a heretic if I thought he was teaching heresy? I really do not discriminate. But, he is not teaching heresy but If you are teaching Serpent Seed doctrine you are teaching heresy. By the way, I also do not think wrong interpretations or conjectures about Bible prophecy is heresy, but I do think that the Serpent Seed Doctrine is clear heresy. I gave you a link to why the Serpent Seed Doctrine is heresy, so I do not know what you do not understand about that. If you believe in the Serpent Seed Doctrine and if you teach it you are a heretic and that is not just what I teach, that is what the Church teaches.

    My view of the offer of salvation for all humans is not inconsistent as you implied. The Nephilim were not humans they were a different race. They were a hybrid race and they cannot be saved by the Kinsman Redeemer of the children of Adam. Even Missler teaches that. You say I got my theory from the book of Enoch. No, actually I got it from Genesis and Jude. I also heard it from Missler but I heard it before that. The book of Enoch as well as at least two other ancient sources confirm and expound on that theory of interpretation of this part of Genesis in place of the nonsensical “Sons of Seth theory” that is usually taught on these passages in Genesis.

    The Hybrids died physically once in the flood since they had natural bodies like humans but since they were also part Angel they did not go where humans go when they died. They became wandering spirits on the earth seeking bodies to possess. If there is a better explanation for demons and how Jesus and his disciples dealt with them I have not heard it. There also is no mention of these beings before the flood, and yes the Book of Enoch gives more detail but also read others like Josephus. It does not all come from Enoch. To me that theory is the most logical explanation and interpretation of that part of Genesis but I am not dogmatic that it has to be the truth. Even so, if you take the reading about the Nephilim at face value in Genesis and do not try to spin it to conform to the theory that nothing supernatural happened in the past or your belief that angels cannot produce offspring because Jesus said the angels of God do not marry IN HEAVEN, by any plain reading of Genesis you will come to the conclusion that the Bible says the Nephilim were the offspring of angels and women.

    I do not believe that unsaved people become demons and that is a ridiculous assertion to make from anything that I have said. To be a human you have to come from the seed of Adam but these beings are not of the seed of Adam they are of the seed of Angels. I said they became wandering spirits on earth after their bodes were killed and that is what the book of Enoch and other writing also says. These are the demons.

    Who knows if there are skip codes in the Bible as these people claim, you asked? Maybe, just the Hebrew language experts and statisticians that totally debunked that theory! Those codes are quite impossible with the later Hebrew text that they use because spellings of words changed and notes were added by the rabbis over time. The Dead sea scrolls prove that. Why in the world does God need to use skip codes to give anyone hidden messages anyway? I know, so they can figure out the future and know all about the fine details about things that they think they will not be here to experience anyway? Anyone seeing the logic in that mindset yet? Does anyone ever use the Bible Codes to learn more about Salvation Theology or how to live a more fruitful Christan life on earth? No. It’s only used to tell people speculations about the past or future. Even what they think they find from the past is used to support their belief that they might someday find something about the future by running endless programs on their computer. They are unbalanced.

    Actually, I think there is biblical support for all the giants being killed off. They were not mentioned anymore in the Bible after they were all killed off. But we do not even need the Bible to tell us that there are no people of the Nephilim stature living on earth today. If there were any, they would be seen on YouTube.

  26. Don,
    You are 100% correct on J.R. Church’s “Hidden Prophecies in The Psalms ” , poor scholarship
    and wild conjecture with NO scriptural support.

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