The mass exodus of the Baldwin’s to Montana.

I am sure that many reading this have now heard that Pastor Chuck Baldwin and all of his extended family of 5 separate households and 17 people are moving to Montana from Florida. Baldwin founded and has been the pastor of Crossroad Baptist Church of Pensacola, Florida for 35 years. For those that do not know, Chuck Baldwin ran on the Constitution Party ticket for President in 2008. Chuck Baldwin has been a voice of the Christian Far Right in America for many a year.

On the political spectrum Baldwin’s views are about one standard deviation right of Far Right and he could be closing in on two. Chuck Baldwin besides being a pastor and politician is also a successful radio host and author. Baldwin writes articles that are published on a number of places on the Internet, they are also posted on Baldwin’s own website. I often read his views. I do not agree with all positions he takes but I think we can agree on much but certainly not on some of his Eschatology. I even have a tag that will take you to some of his articles and my comments on them at the bottom of this post. So why his sudden resignation from all this success and a mass exodus of him and his family to the great state of Montana?

Baldwin claims after much prayer God told him to make this move. I realize pastors often say things like that to justify whatever they do, but I really have no way of knowing who is hearing from God or just hearing what they want to hear. Baldwin says this is the biggest decision of his life. Leaving a church that he has led for 35 years and moving from Florida to Northeast Montana with his whole extended family is one heck of a change. It probably ranks as one of top ten mass political/religious based exodus since Brigham Young.

Usually when you get to Baldwin’s age people are moving in the other direction to a warm weather state like Florida. After at least 35 years in Florida living in the brutal winters of Montana will be difficult. I tried living in New York State near Buffalo recently. Go Bills!! But, you can keep your winter weather. I grew up in Buffalo but going back their after living many years in warmer states was an experience. So I hope Baldwin and family can take what will seem to them like 9 or 10 months of winter.

Here is the reason for the Baldwin move in His own words.

God has led us to the conviction that Montana (along with other Mountain states) is going to be the tip of the spear in the freedom fight; and we believe God wants us to be part of that fight.

For years, people have been asking me, “Chuck, what can we do?” Well, this is what God has led my family and me to do. We are convinced that the only way freedom has a chance to survive in these States united is to recapture the spirit of liberty–one State at a time. (To continue to focus on Washington, D.C., is a waste of time and energy!) And God has led us to the conclusion that Montana (and nearby states) is the place where freedom-minded patriots have a fighting chance to prevail. Instead of telling you what to do, my family and I are showing you what we believe we should do.

Wow! I probably agree that it might come to that. Montana is the most conservative State in the Union but if anyone gets the Montana itch I want to point out some things about Montana that you might not know. Baldwin is going to the Kalispell area of Montana. It is quite beautiful there but for that reason the population there has been growing fairly rapidly. There also is a lot of public land around there so with the population increases and shortage of private land, buying a tract of land is expensive. Housing prices are high and the cost of living is high. Much of the rest of Montana is big sky country. They call it big sky country because there is absolutely nothing to block the view or the wind. Think North Dakota.

Because Montana has such a harsh environment you’re going to need some  kind of specialized skill to live well in Montana or any other conservative mountain state. I mean…don’t just move there if you don’t have skills to do anything and are living on a small pension. Baldwin has quite a following in that area so he is not going to have any problem starting a church and getting support. I also see from his website that he has a lawyer, a plumber and a engineer in the family so people with those skills can move anywhere, but can you? I ask that because in a follow-up article called We Hit a Nerve Baldwin says this.

Our decision to leave the sunny South and move to Montana has produced an avalanche of responses such as (paraphrased), “My family and I were praying about where to move, and now we know,” and “God has already been moving in our hearts to do the same thing that you and your family are doing, Chuck,” and “Make room for us,” and “We just moved to Idaho, so we’ll be neighbors,” and “We know you are following God’s will,” and “We understand what you are doing and are praying for you,” etc., etc. We have received hundreds of emails such as these.

If just a few hundred people get the idea to move up the Kalispell area of Montana it is going to drive housing prices and land prices there through the roof. If you’re not into snow sports and snow blowers you might really think about a more moderate conservative location. I am only urging caution, people need to do what they think they must. However, some of you really probably should just stay where you are.

Baldwin in this article also says he is getting a lot of ugly emails because of his decision to move.

But, just as our patriot forebears met with intense opposition, so have we. We hit a nerve all right! As soon as the announcement was made, Big-Government loyalists (some calling themselves Christians, to boot) began attacking me in the most vehement manner possible. The meanest and most cruel accusations, lies, distortions, etc., that one could think of were instantly hurled against my family and me. (Thank God, the faithful members of Crossroad Baptist Church where I pastored for 35 years understand my heart and–though hurt–have overwhelmingly expressed their support and love for us.)

It is truly incredible! Just ask yourself, “Why in the world should other people care–one way or another–that my family and I would decide to make a move? What difference should that make to them?” People move all the time. Do others usually react with vicious slander and open hostility (mostly done anonymously, of course)? No. So why would they react this way because the Baldwins decided to move? I’ll tell you why.

People realize that we have found the ultimate vehicle through which liberty can be transported to future generations. The principalities and powers that be recognize that what we are doing could lead to the restitution of genuine liberty in these States united. In short, they must feel threatened. They realize the potential of what we are doing is so great, so powerful, and so extensive, that it could literally change the course of American history. Yes, I truly believe that.

Some people need to learn to mind their own business. The hate mail shows how hateful people can be when someone actually takes a stand for what they believe and it goes against their big government socialist Utopian idealism.

I will give some wise words of caution to Chuck though. If you run for the US House or even the US Senate in Montana you might just win and then you would find yourself in Washington DC. Take my word for it, you would really hate that place. Better to run for county Sheriff, you always wanted to be one anyway. Also, forget those cowboy hats and boots that you will see out there. Get yourself and your family Russian hats and warm boots. The fascist Russians get one thing right. They know how to stay warm in climates like Montana. May God be with the Baldwin family wherever they are led. Heck, I might even move your way if things get ugly.

In this next article Chuck tells us why the Baldwin’s decided to make the big move to Montana.

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 Don Koenig is the founder of ThePropheticYears website. He has been publishing articles on the Internet on Bible prophecy, biblical discernment and Christian worldviews since 1999. You can find well over a thousand articles and thousands of comments written by Don from the homepage of this website.


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52 thoughts on “The mass exodus of the Baldwin’s to Montana.

  1. I am for the first time considering relocation to Colorado and feel led to do it. I am presently in Socal and have been for the past 29 years. I feel like my back is to the wall here and I have done all I can here. My midwestern values do not bode well here but I sure like to meet others who think and act like I do and thats getting more rare all the time out here. I don’t know the Balwin story but I see something akin to what I am moving towards. Winters are not as harse and they is room to move and grow. If your in Socal your dependant on supermarkets and water companies for survival and in a real crisis such as a quake you can’t even walk out of here with the desert to the east and ocean to the west. My current town will be the place to get too and I don’t want to be here when that happens. It already did once during the housing boom and we are still reeling from that mess (rampant foreclosures). God Bless those who feel led in these times to change scenery. Pray about it first and make sure it’s from the Lord. I know this is for me!

  2. I am looking at Grand Junction, pop136K. They tend to kling to their bibles and guns 🙂 It is more conservative in nature in that locale. I grew up in Cleveland and the winters..well..not so good, so I don’t want to completely leave the West. However if he feels that Montana is the rally point “tip of the spear for freedom” then we are in more trouble than even I thought. Bunker stuffs are up 24% this year and Hormel posted its best ever stock price “Spam”. WSJ has a great article on it. Nice blog!

  3. That’s not a bad area or a bad climate. I spent a couple of months camping around there and thought of living there but that was in 1977. At that time the town was probably less than a third the population it is today. I like anything on that side of the state.

  4. I live 3.64 miles from the U.S./Mexico border, that is line of site from my back yard. Yes, I can see Mexico from my bedroom window. Even with all the problems going on down here I have not felt moved by God to move from here. My wife and I go down the a park, two blocks from our home, and meet with children every Friday at 5:30pm. We play games with them, well my wife does, and then give a short Bible story and witness to them. Last Friday, one young girl started telling me that she met her father, who had not been in her life for 15 years, three months later he died, at 6:06pm she said, from cirrhosis of the liver. She kept on talking about other things that were going on in her life. I have been praying for this girl and the other children that we meet at the park. You would be moved to tears hearing what has happened and how some of these kids home-life is like. It is not that I think I can change any of that, but I can present it to the Father and He will show these children what they can do to change things. So at present I can not say anything about what Chuck Baldwin or any one else about moving.

  5. Interesting…Well, may God bless them and use them there.

    I’ve prayed about this and I believe that Abba wants our family where we are; there are people here He wants us to love for Him.

    We may become overrun with the wickedness in high places (such as DC) or even higher, but Christ is greater than they are and we will prevail here – no place is truly dangerous if it us where He wants us, where He is with us.

    Some will go, some will stay; God has painted a grand picture with humanity for all the Heavenlies to better understand who He is and His great character and glory. He will supply all His children with exactly what they need to play their part. We shall have a wonderful time “comparing notes” and marveling at His greatness in all this as we are reunited in eternity!

    Never forget, we live on the very edge of eternity, rapture or no, eternity will sweep over us all!

    Abba, dearest Lord, our Love, use us to the maximum; draw us close and fill-us, all of the spots in our beings that are available to You, and THEN help us surrender more to You so we can be filled even more. You designed us like gloves to accept Your hand, Your filling; a glove does nothing worthwhile by itself, but filled with a hand, Your Hand, it can do anything in Your will! We are no less for being Your creation, designed to be filled by You, rather we are more! We attain our greatest nobility as Your image-bearers when we abandon ourselves to You in active submission to Your Spirit. Please help us in our weakness to love You more!

  6. http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/2010/September03/0313.html

    Here is the link to the article I mentioned in an earlier post that seems to be a good indicator of the nervousness out there these days. Now it is not my intent to spread this nervousness but just to show one more indicator of where we seem to be right now (as if we didn’t know already).

    Of course, those who believe in Christ are in good hands, but even Joseph saw hard times coming and stored up seven years of grain for the people of Egypt. Of course there is way more to that story and I over simplify but he did get them prepared and even his own people were helped from the starvation at that time. Jesus says his father keeps even the fowl who do not store up grain, so how much greater are we than the birds of the air? He will provide for us.

    Don, what is your position on these kinds of preparations? Should the wise among us be prepared or does it really not matter in the end? Do you have a previous blog piece on this?

  7. Just the thought of the logistics and the effort for a move is exhausting;

    As for the hate mail – agreed… This land is filled with people full of hate; But I don’t see moving as the big answer;

    Light invades the darkness, so ultimately moving away from the darkness is, to me, biblical cowardliness if not unfaithfulness;

    Now it seems to me that Chuck is looking to create his own utopia, but I don’t want to be critical (only an observation, which may be incorrect); It’s one thing if you have a missionary calling – I don’t think a missionary is disillusioned, only courageous and maybe slightly restless by nature; On the other hand, moving to change an entire state or set of states – well, that’s another thing altogether;

    Yeah, I can see DC as a wasteland (derelict country), but why not try moving to a liberal/wicked state and showing the light brightly?

    Now, if you’ve had enough and you just want to move – by all means; Every saint needs a break from the action, particularly if it’s been on the order of decades;

  8. Craig,

    Biblically Cowardliness if not unfaithfulness? I’ve never heard this applied to someone moving to another location! In Socal it has been coined White Flight and it is ongoing. Maybe they want to protect their values and their way of life to fight the good fight another day (re-group). Paul did not stay rooted in wicked lands who did not want to hear his message and so he moved onto those in need and the Israelites we encourage to live apart from heathens. I don’t think Paul was a coward in any way but a very prudent man, who attempted to shine that light you speak of into dark areas.

    Somebody will need to be around to pick up the pieces some day and just maybe a guy like Chuck Baldwin, his family and his followers will be some of those very people. We can never really know why the Lord has led him in this way, but to coin it the way you just did, well…is an outright insult in it’s own right. He is either going to create a Utopia or not? It can’t be that you don’t want to be critical then say it’s only and observation and may not be correct. You put something out there to imply something and then pulled it back. Thats a perfect example of cowardice. Take a shot and then back it out. We also should not bear false witness to his actions and you seem to have done just that. Please take this in the good spirit it is intended. I didn’t even mention my own planned move..oops I just did. Did you read it? Yes that’s right you called me a coward and unfaithful. Be careful the words you throw around and I will too!

  9. Craig, Baldwin believes that the United States will turn into a failed sate and certain states like Montana will hold on to state sovereignty and oppose the Federal Government. When he talks about it all starting in Montana he is not talking about Christian evangelicalism state by state he is pretty much saying the United States controlled by the Left elite will fail and that we will need to start over. He is saying that he and his conservative friends in Montana will show the way back to following his interpretation of the US Constitution.

  10. Jerome, my position is do what You believe God tells you to and listen to other astute Christians

    I am sure I have written things but can’t tell you in what posts or comments off the top of my hat. Try putting certain keywords in the search box in the upper right corner or check the categories in the side bar or the tags on the bottom of each post.

    I wrote an article on my website about what I think all Christians need to do to prepare for these times.
    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/preparing_for_the_last_days.htm

  11. To Jerome – you REALLY need to chill out… patience… You completely missed all of what I was saying and all of my points; As for Paul – I consider him a missionary in the finest sense; As for the rest of your diatribe, I won’t even bother giving it the time of day; I’ve got way more important things to deal with;

    Don put it best… We’re all in this together; You REALLY need to chill out;

  12. Here is a post from a couple of years ago. Basically, I think if Obama gets reelected you can put a fork in us, we are done. In one post somewhere I said we would have a secession in 2013 if that happens.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/the-american-christian-of-2012-2013-2014-2015ad-under-an-obama-administration.html

    There is also these posts of mine from before the election.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/you-want-a-socialist-obama-nation.html
    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/if-you-have-read-my-posts-and-vote-for-obama-you-have-nobody-but-yourself-to-blame-for-the-coming-american-nightmare.html

  13. Jerome, You do seem to think people are talking to you when they are only giving their take on the subject, so I do have to say that Craig does have a point.

  14. So, from what I think I’m reading, Baldwin is making his move for the “other side of the civil war” scenario – It’s hard to gauge how the civil war will play out; My head is also in the “stick a fork in it, we’re done [regardless]” mindset;

    I agree with Don that we should not take arms in the civil war; We should be in the center anyway (where Jesus is); So, my plan is to “dig in” and simply witness to my neighbors; We support a missionary and the success rate of bringing souls to Christ is way higher just about anywhere else but the USA; When things get bad, I pray that I will have much better ears to hear with my neighbors; I may not be a prophet in my home town, but any chance to put scripture and truth out there to “ears to hear” will at least result in the “proper confrontation” (that’s all we’re asked to do anyway);

    If Chuck can make a difference in the post-civil-war scenario, all the best; My mindset, however, is that I would rather take life’s moments and opportunities one at a time; I remain cautious on all fronts;

  15. Although Baldwin might think a civil war is possible I do not think that he believes it will come to a post civil war scenario. From what I understand he expects that this will be done through Christian example and politics. in other words, he is an optimist and thinks Americans will get the message and return to the Constitution (partly through his teaching and example). I am more of a realist.

  16. I grew up in Eastern Washington and now I live in Eastern Oregon. Even though these states appear to be “liberal” the eastern parts of both states are passionately conservative!!! I can remember listening to the “old timers” constantly talk about creating their own conservative state and calling it “Jefferson” comprised of Eastern Washington, Oregon, and Northeastern California. The beauty of living in “Jefferson State” is that the liberals don’t want to live in the boondocks!!! The conversations about “Jefferson State” have started up again and the voices are younger and more varied….we’ll see what happens.

  17. Yeah, Abraham would not have been caught dead in Sodom where his liberal nephew lived. One issue with the proposed sate of “Jefferson” is that it would be the second Mormon controled state.

  18. Don, I live in El Paso, Texas. Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico is right across the river. The shootings and the violence is starting to increase on this side of the border. The law enforcement and the local government try to keep it out of the news. The reason, El Paso was ranked 2nd in the nation for being a safe city :0 . They think if they can control what is being reported then people will continue to visit and spend their money here. There is a group from local government and the University of TX – El Paso that thinks’ they have all the answers on how to deal with the violence, but in all reality they have nothing but empty words. Government can not deal with what is going on today, they are more of the same problem. This fight can not be won with conventional wisdom or weapons, it can only be won through the Almighty God.

    Last night at the park as my wife and the kids were playing volley ball, I observed one father of one of the kid’s with four others, one took out a pipe and lit it and passed it around. I began to pray that the Lord would put His hand around the park, protect these children from the problems that are going on here. I looked back to where that group was and they were walking away to the other side of the park. If we could get enough people praying for Juarez and El Paso, maybe it will only take one person, the Lord would come and push back the drugs, violence and Satan away from this area, maybe even the whole southern border. I was thinking about Mark 5:1-13, the Gerasene Demoniac. There are no pig farms around here and there is not a body of water large enough to drown 2,000 pigs, unless you spread them down river for a few miles.

  19. In all the discussions I’ve listened to in regard to “Jefferson State”,religion was not a part of the conversation. How could it be a mormon-controled state? The people I know who want to be seperated from the “liberal” side (of our present states) are farmers, ranchers, and independent business people. They want a “voice” in governing themselves . They want their “conservative” opinions to carry some weight. At present, the “liberal” side of our present states have the “voice” in the direction of our state governments. I’ve never heard anyone call this concept a “mormon” concept. Its about being heard and maintaining a “Christian” moral standard as a part of our country (boondock) way of life. Believe me, if a mormon tried to take control, the baptists in this area would revolt! We are very tired of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Northern California being ruled by the liberal maniacs in Portland, Boise, Seattle, and Sacramento!!! Sorry, I get a little heated up about this.

  20. Understandable… well understood (well, e-mail and forum posts are not great communication vehicles, to say the least); I feel for you (and us); Hang in there;

    In the landscape you describe, I almost see the EMP scenario as an act of grace by our Lord… Those evil places are hardest hit, while the more self sufficient and prudent people (people who BELIEVE God, take Him at His word, and conduct themselves accordingly) will survive.

    Or, something to that effect.

    Although, I still dread the thought of packing up and moving somewhere (although, with the potential for a few hurricanes out there to come my way, I might have to vacate in a hurry);

    Take care, God bless;

  21. dettemc1611,

    I did not say the Jefferson State was a Mormon concept.

    Its just been my observation that Eastern Washington State, Eastern Oregon State and North East California are mostly occupied and settled by Mormons. At least the rural areas (not that there is anything wrong with that). That also is a generalization on my part because I know their are exceptions like the fast growing Yakima and Spokane areas.

    The Jefferson state idea is never going to happen anyway without a Kurd like violent Revolution of the natives. People living in those areas of those states simply will never have the votes to make that kind of change. The only non violent way it could happen is if the liberals in these states decided to disown you.

    A few hundred or even a few thousand might entertain intra-state secessions but making their fantasy a reality is an entirely different matter.

  22. In Oregon, the liberals just might disown us! But, they need our agricultural products and the Native American Tribal money. I know we will never be independent of the liberal majority , but, sometimes we just need to vent. But, if the US gets as bad as you say…police state and all…we in the Eastern parts of our states will be able to survive and and maintain a semblance of community while those on the other side of the mountains will tear each other apart. We do like our bibles and our guns but we won’t “go postal”; we will protect ourselves, though.

    No matter what…God is in control…so…no matter what happens in the future, our treasure is in heaven,not on earth. I just keep looking up with a smile on my face. Thanks for letting me vent. I do really appreciate your blog.

  23. I have to give Pastor Chuck some credit. It’s pretty gutsy to move from Florida where the climate is easy to a place like Montana where the winters can be pretty brutal, especially for one approaching 60. (as Don pointed out). I’m sure the decision was not made lightly.

    I happen to think that any major changes in this country will not be made by a tea party movement, but by a few brave governors of certain states who decide to stand up to the federal monster. Montana could be one of those states, possibly Idaho, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas and others. IMHO, it will have to start as a tax revolt from the states who refuse to send money to Washington and enforce their edicts. Hit them in the pocketbook and that will get their attention!

    So can’t judge Pastor Chuck’s motives, but I think he wants to be around like minded people who seem to have some courage to stand up before the beast in Washington runs this country completely into the abyss.

  24. Our only chance politically is through the States and Governors that have enough backbone to stand up(politically) for the rights of the people of their state. The move is on to get most voters and states so addicted to subsidies that the idea of political revolt is slim to none.

    Our only chance as individuals is to become as self sufficient as possible. Water, food, and energy production should be your hobbies. Even if there is no collapse, the tax burden placed on the producers to pay for the utopia they are attempting to build are going to be crushing….ESPECIALLY TO THOSE THAT WILL NOT SUBMIT TO THE NEW MORALITY THAT WILL BE COERCED THROUGH GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF RESOURCES…ie, recycling police, coerced community service, etc.

    Regathering with those that have a SIMILAR outlook in any State is not a bad idea. That does not mean having having a bunker mentality or desiring to create a cultic theocracy. It means that if there are enough numbers in your area that believe in liberty for all, your community might weather the storms that are on the horizon.

    Thank the Lord he is in control.

  25. I didn’t know this was what Pastor Baldwin believes. Interestingly, my wife and I have sold all our stuff and are waiting to see what the Lord has for us. I do not want to leave my church, as it is Biblical, and our pastor seriously considers what people tell him about doctrinal concerns etc.

    I have been wondering for some time if our country would end up being a bunch of little fiefdoms.

    The best thing we can do is honor God, stay in prayer and His Word, so we can remember the One we serve:

    “Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the Lord is a God of justice; how blessed are all those who long for Him.” (Isaiah 30: 18)

  26. John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

    John 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

    Laodicea means Rights of the people. More concerned about their rights and personal freedoms than they are for The Lord or HIS sheep.

  27. That is one heck of a judgment call Frank, on a Christian brother who is doing what he feels God told him to do. I think Roman’s chapter 14 applies to you here.

    Laodicea does not mean “rights of the people” like you said it means “judgment by the people” or “People justice”. But you miss the point of the whole message to Laodicea and get lost in the meaning of a word.

    The main problem with those in Laodicea were they were lukewarm or apathetic spiritually blind people living under false security. That might apply to most of Christianity today but it certainly does not apply to the Baldwins.

  28. Yes it does. By the way, Laodicea does mean rights of the people, and also can mean judgment of the people, as in The People Rule. I have read Chucks website a long time ago. One thing I noticed about him was that he is a big supporter of the Confederate Flag as well as the Confederacy. He removed that page when he announced his run for president. I can’t imagine why? Now he has a Black Regiment article I guess to hide his real beliefs. The reason for Laodiceans being lukewarm was because they were more concerned with their worldly ways, and their rights than they were for The Lord and His ways. As far as Chuck ‘feeling’ God moving him & his family, that’s emotional. Chuck said “God told me”. He did? I don’t believe that for one moment. I reject Chuck Baldwin, and all who are like him. Show me one article that he wrote that leads people to Christ? Show me one article he wrote on salvation? The love of the brethren? Show me one. There are none. Ive been to his page quite a few times, and searched in vain for a statement of faith and salvation. Even the church website has nothing to say about Jesus. Pretty lukewarm to me, don’t ya’ think? I told you once before, I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY, but I do and will confront error wherever it rears it’s ugly head. I have signed off on my replies in Christian Love, and that had not effect whatever. By the way…since when is pacifism among Christians a heresy? Chapter and verse please? You may disagree with me on that, but it’s not Heresy as though I deny The Lord that bought me. Yes Don, I belong to The Lord and one day we’re going to be standing with The Lord…you gonna chew me out then too? The Lord rebuke thee.

  29. Hi Frank EBell 🙂

    For the world, all they can do is what’s “right in their own eyes.”

    But we who are God’s children in Christ Jesus have the privilege of hearing His call and we have the freedom to obey: Some He will call to go; others He will call to stay. Romans 4:14 comes to mind:

    Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    Of course, if the Baldwins were clearly violating scripture, that would be one thing, but it seems like they have sensed God’s leading and are moving in faith.

    My family and I believe we have sensed God’s leading too, and we are staying where we are: blooming where we are planted. YET Abba is also leading us to go to the whole world ALSO, making friends and then disciples through electronic social networking and Internet list-forums.

    But I can also relate to the Baldwins here: God has in the last couple years been leading me to befriend people and minister in places that would cause many Christians to recoil in horror (one important person who does not understand what I am or my calling has done this). But our Lord loves all people as His creatures and He will be found wherever they are here on earth. We are *so blessed* that He calls us as friends and coworkers, and that we know our master’s business in this. It it ever means moving, then He will do that for us too. I am looking like a little child looks to a loving daddy to protect and to supply my family’s needs as we imitate Him in loving others and leading them to His truth and His salvation in Christ Jesus.

  30. Don: Your website has articles on Salvation. Your website edifies Christians. Some articles I agree with, some I don’t. That is my prerogative. However, I DO NOT disagree with you on Salvation, The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, The Virgin birth, The Godhead (Trinity), the Blessed Hope of all who are in Christ, the pre-tribulation rapture. I believe the entire Bible, I believe in a six literal day creation (I reject pre-Adamic race heresy, gap theories, day age theories etc). Now…what is it that separates you and I? POLITICS! And that be DAMNED! My soul brother, did politics separate the apostles and disciples? God forbid. Because I believe that a Christian should avoid political and military associations, you jump on me as though I’m some flaming heretic?

    As for Chuck Baldwin, his website has NOTHING about Jesus. NOTHING about leading people to The Lord Jesus Christ. NOTHING on salvation, the rapture, the end times, Christian edification. NOTHING! And you say Chuck is not lukewarm? Exscuse me? I am not stupid, o’k. …I’m done.

  31. Bret …Abba did not die for me…Jesus Christ did. I praise The Lord Jesus Christ and am not ashamed of His Name, which is above all Names. Abba is The FAther in Heaven, but it is JESUS we owe our thanks and praise to.

    You need to check Mr. Baldwins ‘Christian’ website, and read his articles on salvation, pre-trib rapture, Christian living, trusting God articles. LEt mne know how many you read there at his web site. Oh, by the way, he has PUHLENTY of political articles too. Lots of flesh feeding.

  32. Frank. Where is your source for such a definition for “Laodicea” meaning the “rights of the people”. Seems to me that meaning just fits your own views so you make it up. You can’t possible know that Laodician’s were more concerned about “their rights” then the Lord. According to scripture they were lovers of pleasure that were more concerned about material possessions.

    I do not support all of Chuck Baldwin’s views but I do support his right to have his views. Frank, you have to realize that this article is about the Baldwin’s moving to Montana because of foreseen troubles in the United States. It is not about whether I agree that Christians should move or his theology.

    As far as I know from what Baldwin writes he believes in a strict interpretation of the Constitution and that includes a State’s right to remove themselves from the Union if the Union become tyrannical. State’s rights is what the civil war was really about. Just because they lost the battle for State independence from the union does not mean they cannot retain their view of State’s rights.

    You certainly have a right to reject Chuck Baldwin’s theology but that is not the real point here. You really cannot know what motivates him to move to Montana. You claim that Baldwin does not mention Jesus or salvation on his website. That might be that he is a Calvinist that is not out to convert America to Christ because he believes that actual Christians in American are already Christians. So he thinks these Christians need to be awakened from their apathy and take a stand against the evil that has come upon this nation by those following the Satanic elite. Baldwin would call people with views like yours Laodicean’s. Here is a case in point from my own blog where I took a stand against what Baldwin said. Obviously he was talking to what he thinks are lazy laodicean Christians that he thinks believes in escapism and a hands off politics theology in America.

    Well we all can’t be Laodiceans sometimes the title just does not fit and that title does not fits Baldwin. American Dominion Theology constructivism might better fit his views.

    God uses different believers in different ways but they all work together for good. If there were no Christian Far Right views in America the Christian Far Left views would prevail. We are now reaping that Christian relativism. Are there heresies on the Far Right as well. Certainly. But, the safest path is walking between the cliff on the Far Left and on the Far Right.

    “Since when is Christian pacifism a heresy”, and I should site chapter and verse? What did Abraham do when Lot was taken? There are scores of examples in the OT. God did not change. Read Romans 13:4 and Hebrews Chapter 11 in the NT.

    You might also read these two articles.

    http://www.hoshuha.com/blog/challenge_to_pacifists.html
    http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/christianpacifism.html

    There are other articles on this blog where I disagree with Baldwin on some of the things he says but I would hardly say that Baldwin does not believe and teach a orthodox salvation message. You do have to realize that Baldwin believes America has to return to Christian values and to a Constitution that was founded on the scriptures. So what you see on his website is toward that end. Not every leader in the Church majors in Salvation Theology.

    I know you are not my enemy but apparently you think people are that disagree with your views. Seems you might have a bit of a persecution complex.

  33. Frank EBell,

    “Abba” is the intimate of our Heavenly Father, who while He did not die for us, He *IS* God nonetheless; He begot Jesus and then sent His Son to die for us:

    Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Galations 4:6)

    We owe our gratitude to the entire Godhead: Father, Jesus and Spirit:

    And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. (Revelation 11:16-17 among many others)

    Re: Chuck Baldwin

    OK, I have gone to ChuckBaldwinLive.com and looked through his site and archives. From what I can see, his site is oriented towards exhorting American citizens and especially American Christians to take their responsibilities as US citizens seriously, performing these responsibilities as unto God, and as part of this, he reminds his fellow Christians about what God has done for us specifically in the USA.

    Baldwin’s site is not a discipleship site, nor is it one geared to prophesy, nor is it a discernment ministry, but looking through his sermon and article archives I can see that he touches on these topics. I would have been more comfortable to be able to read a statement of faith and were his site an “ecclesiastical” one, I would consider it an egregious omission. Given what it is, I can live with the fact that he doesn’t have “Jesus Saves” plastered all over the site.

    In my looking over his site if I had to pick one article that seemed to encapsulate Baldwin’s thrust it would be this one:

    Saving Souls Alone Will Not Save The Country
    http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2002/cbarchive_20020927.html

    From this I see that his focus is on ONE PART of (American) Christian life and that is to take our civic rights and responsibilities seriously and to use them as Christians and not as worldly Americans. I think it is a ONE legitimate point and *someone* needs to voice it. It certainly looks like God has raised him up to be both a pastor and a statesman. I understand that some Christians cannot abide by this combination any more than they can imagine a Christian soldier. His calling appears to be as the “Black Regiment,” of pastors who were also patriots, recognizing that God was doing something special in and with America. (“Black” in “Black Regiment” had nothing to do with the “Confederacy” it was that pastors regularly dressed in black and they formed a virtual regiment at times pastors were viewed as secular as well as sacred leaders.)

    Also, Frank EBell, you complained about Baldwin’s support of the Confederacy. It would really benefit you to learn more about the Confederacy and US history of that era. There were honorable God-fearing men and women on both sides of our last civil war, and from what I can see, Baldwin is simply underscoring this fact because there are similarities to what happened then and what is happening now – assuming that the civil war was all/only about slavery and racism is to distort and fundamentally misunderstand it.

    Frank EBell, I think that you are condemning Rev. Baldwin because he is not conforming to YOUR standard of how you believe a pastor should behave. While I’m not entirely comfortable with Baldwin’s focus, he is not out of line with scripture. My sense is that you are uncomfortable because he’s not focused where you think a pastor should be focused and using all the right vocabulary and dotting all the ‘i’s and also going “places” where you thin a pastor has no business going. That’s fair to disagree with him, but to carry-on as if he is some apostate (and also to castigate others here because they don’t agree with you) is unfortunate and wrong because there does not appear to be evidence of anything improper, and lack of a “statement of faith” and “plan of salvation” on his politically-oriented web site is not evidence that he is any less Christian than we are.

  34. Good observations Brett. There could be a good reason why Baldwin does not put his statement of faith on the website. Being primarily a political figure perhaps he does not want to limit his political support by those that would like to put him in a theological box.

    Frank Ebell might ask Baldwin about his concerns.

    Brett, by the way, I think my software now gives people 90 minutes to edit their comments. Correct me if I am wrong.

  35. Hi Ken C,

    Even the two prophets of Revelation will not be pacifists. I guess they think that they will not harm anyone when they call down judgment as often as they wish.

  36. Don; Even I wont be a ‘pacifist’ when I return to this world with Christ. We will all return with The Lord and fight against those who fight against The Lord and His people Israel. But our calling now is to Love our enemies. Now, I aked you once before and you never answered me, HOw do we show love towards our enemies, if we kill them? I also would like you to explain these verses…

    Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    How do we do that with machine guns?

    2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

    I will get back to you on those websites you posted. Ive been reading the history one, and found quite few problems.

  37. Don: I forgot…Why did you accuse me of making up the meaning of Laodicea? I can’t imagine genuine Christians doing such a thing. I would never do that, and why you would accuse me of that causes me some concern here? All you have to do is google the meaning of Laodicea.

    Bret: The Father did not beget Jesus Christ, The Holy Ghost did.

  38. Frank, don’t get back to me on the web pages I posted. Get back to the author. I already know that you most often do not know what you are talking.

    I am tired of you always being contrary and getting posts off topic. This post is not about the meaning of Laodicea or Christian Pacifism.

    So you Googled Laodicea and that is your authority for your stupid definition? Which of the millions of pages in the Google index might that authority be? Never mind I really do not care.

    Then you make the moronic statement to Brett that the Father did not beget Jesus Christ as if the Father and the Holy Spirit are too different Gods.

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    I also answered all your questions about what you claimed that I did not answer on another post. I do not have the time to keep repeating myself on every post just so you can spout your Christian pacifistic heresy.

    In fact Frank, I have had it with you. I do not see why I should allow you to continue being a pain in the butt on my blog and wasting my time. You are out of here.

  39. Good for you Don, (on taking a stand against ignorance). Please allow me this one digression though (weather you allow Frank to respond or not makes no difference to me).

    One of the problems with Frank’s scripture texts is that it is extremely difficult (us being imperfect human beings) to do what Christ (a perfect human being) commanded. This has been my problem with the idiotic WWJD. Fool, you can’t do what Jesus did! Jesus Christ basically allowed his enimies to torture and kill him, and then asked for them to be forgiven while it happened! Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not in any way justifying hatred or violence for those are things of this world. Ideally Frank, this world would be sunshine and lollipops but it’s not.

    Now, having said that. Frank is correct in this respect, we should as Christians strive to be, as Paul might say, aggreeable with all. And in so doing Christ’s likeness might shine through us. But I’ll be damned if I’ll stand back and let someone or something destroy the things that I hold dear (family, innocence, principles, etc.) without putting up a fight. Only Christ himself could do that.

  40. Only Christ could do that but He had a purpose for dying as a Lamb and that was to die for our sins. When Jesus comes back he is going to deal with all evil people like a Lion. In fact He is going to kill all that reject Him. God is hardly a pacifist and last I heard we were made in His image.

    Did God change since Abraham went to save Lot? I thought we were children of Abraham and that Abraham was an example of those living in faith.

    God expects us to have mercy and grace toward others since we are in His Body and He had given grace and mercy toward us but He does not expect us to become martyrs to enable the proliferation of more deadly evils on the earth. What kind of love allows Hitler’s to destroy a whole race because they are Jews?

    What kind of love enables Islamic fascism that destroyed at least 60,000 people in terrorist attacks just last year. Not to mention the honor killings etc. Appeasement of evil is enabling it.

    We live in a real and evil world, if people like Frank cannot see the difference between nations perhaps they ought to move and experience their Christian deathwish where it would become a reality. Its easy to be a pacifist when there is no apparent danger to yourself or your love ones. But there is grave danger, they just do not know it.

  41. Don, now that’s a real world description of love. I’ve bookmarked it for my pacifist, gun-grabbing friends.

    For any readers on the fence, I ask this question. If your loved ones were home alone when a life threatening situation came up, who would you rather have for a next door neighbor, a pacifist or Ken C?

    +1 for Ken C.

  42. Take It To Heart Ministries
    http://www.TakeItToHeartRadio.com

    NO EXCUSES

    At the end of World War II, as Hitler’s atrocities became widely known, the international community turned to the German people and asked, “How could you let this happen?” “Why didn’t you do something to stop the slaughter of six million people?” But many of the Germans insisted that they had no idea what was going on – despite the fact that trainloads of victims passed their doorsteps daily, regardless of the fact that the Nazi death camps were just minutes from their homes.

    Proverbs 24:11-12 commands us: “Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering to slaughter. If you say, ‘But we knew nothing about this,’ does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not He who guards your life know it? Will He not repay each person according to what he has done?”

    The Scripture is clear that there is no excuse – we ARE our brother’s keepers. We cannot look the other way. We are called to be a voice for the voiceless, a help to the helpless.

    We are to stand up to evil wherever we find it, rescue those held captive or oppressed, and fight to our last breath to defend the cause of the innocent. We cannot excuse ourselves by saying we didn’t see – we didn’t know. God sees. God knows. And He who weighs our hearts will call us to account.

  43. After experiencing a society of alcoholism and complacency in Wisconsin, I downloaded and poured over 100+ charted maps to find a good place for my family. For me, the inland northwest area had everything we needed. We live there now. NW Montana and Eastern washington are not as cold as say Siberia. The many lakes keep the temperature temperate. But every other year there’s tons of snow. The first few months we were here, we met some other families that had up and moved for similar reasons. Not to suggest everyone do it. But just to say that God did call some people to relocate to this area. Btw, Idaho is more conservative. Montana just legalized marihuana stores to open up.

  44. Jetspice,
    I can understand why some people want to live there it is a quite beautiful area. When I retired from the government and was looking for a place to relocate I mainly ruled out that area because the cost of land and housing was so expensive.

    i have noticed that Montana seems to be getting more liberal all the time. I guess the city dwellers are taking over or more likely Californian’s are looking for jobs or a better place to live but taking their liberal disease with them.

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